3 People Groups Going into the Lake of Fire

FineLinen · May 11, 2019

BCsenior said:
Yes, I checked several translations ...
and surprisingly, they all use "unbelieving".

Revelation 21:8 - But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be co.

BCsenior · May 11, 2019

The following is an improvement to Group (1):
(1) -- the cowardly
This group represents at least 3 sub-groups:
(A) - People who are afraid of accepting and/or
confessing Jesus (for a variety of reasons)
(B) - BACs who fall away from the faith
(e.g. Galatians 5:4), including those who
fall away during Christian persecution
(Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:22, Mark 13:13)
(C) - BACs who submit to taking the deadly mark of the beast during the time of the antichrist
(Revelation 13:7-17, Revelation 14:9-10,
Revelation 20:4, and also 2:10, 12:11)

FineLinen · May 11, 2019

BCsenior said:
The following is an improvement to Group (1):
(1) -- the cowardly
This group represents at least 3 sub-groups:
(A) - People who are afraid of accepting and/or
confessing Jesus (for a variety of reasons)
(B) - BACs who fall away from the faith
(e.g. Galatians 5:4)
(C) - BACs who submit to taking the deadly mark of the beast during the time of the antichrist
(Revelation 13:7-17, Revelation 14:9-10,
Revelation 20:4, and also 2:10, 12:11)

Wow: what an improvement!

A couple of questions for you>>>>

1. What is the defining difference of our God the consuming fire and the Lake of all lakes?

2. The main ingredient of the Lake is theion rooted in theioo and theioo in Theos. Why?

Location Of The Lake Of Fire By Jonathan Mitchell

aiki · May 11, 2019

setst777 said:
Aiki RE: To say, as you have, that the retention of your salvation is a product of your effort, of your ability to perform good works, is to say that your works save you.

setst RE: You saw the Scriptures; I quoted them.

God states that faith is the opposite of works (Romans 3:27-28; Romans 4:4-5; Romans 9:30-33, Galatians 2:15-16)

Faith leads to obedience (John 10:27-28; John 12:25-26; Romans 16:25-27; Hebrews 5:8, etc).

And God accredits righteousness to those who believe (Romans 4:4-5; Romans 4:11, etc).

If you disagree with God's plan, then you have to take that up with God, not me. Good luck.

Well, It isn't God's plan with which I disagree but with your idea that one must perform good works in order to remain saved. You wrote:

"God places the responsibility on the Christian to remain faithful and to be overcomers to receive eternal life..."

"Those who have the indwelling Spirit must obey the Spirit to be saved"

"You can be saved by faith, but be severed from Christ if you do not stand firm in the faith - the possibility of losing ones salvation is very real, that is why we must fear God..."

"You can be blotted out of the Book of Life if you do not remain faithful, therefore God places the responsibility on Christians to remain victorious..."

Every one of these statements of yours places the responsibility for one's salvation ultimately upon one's self, not Christ. Jesus just gets the salvation thing going but its up to the saved person to keep it going. It is just as I said when I analogized to a drowned man being saved and then thrown back into the water to swim for shore by his own power. You are simply setting works-salvation back one step by saying a man is saved by faith but only remains saved so long as he works to keep his salvation. That you appear unable to see this is very...odd.

setst777 said:
setst RE: See above what? I have provided the Scriptures to you that show faith is not a work, and that we are justified by faith, and we gain access to God's grace by faith (Rom 5:1-2). That is God's Word.

And then you deny everything the verses you've cited establish about salvation by faith when you write the things that I just quoted above from your posts. If we must work to keep ourselves saved, then we are, obviously, our own saviour. It is our effort, our work, our remaining faithful, our obedience by which our salvation is kept secure. How is this not works-salvation? Is it the man who fights off a bear with a spear who is the one who has saved himself from the bear? Or is he saved by the one who gave him the spear? It seems pretty obvious to me that the man actually fighting the bear has saved himself from the bear, whatever help the spear might have been to the effort. So, too, the Christian who must strive to keep himself safe from the "teeth" of the "bear" of eternal damnation. Christ has not truly rescued him from the "bear" if the Christian must still work to keep the "bear" from devouring him.

setst777 said:
And those that say you don't have to obey Jesus, and say you don't have to live as Jesus lived, to be saved are liars according to Scripture: 1 John 2:4-6.

See, here again you are espousing works-salvation! How are you missing this?! You have made salvation, not a work of God through Christ, as the Bible says, but the work of the one who obeys Jesus and manages to live as he lived.

1 John 2:4-6 (NKJV)
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Here you are confusing the inevitability of good works with the necessity of good works. Good works are proof positive of a person's spiritual regeneration. They are so inevitable a consequence of salvation that it is possible for John to write that without obedience to God the claim to know Him is shown to be false. But the inevitability of obedience, of good works, manifesting as result of salvation does not make good works necessary to being saved any more than the inevitability of my snoring when I sleep makes snoring necessary to my sleep. My snoring is the consequence of my sleeping, not the means of it. So, too, obedience, good works, are the consequence of salvation, not the means of it. And John says nothing in the quotation above that denies this understanding of his words.

setst777 said:
setst RE: Its not that I believe in works for salvation as if works could justify us, but what you are not understanding from Scripture is that a true faith in Jesus means you have given your life to him - 'deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Him.' When Jesus has you, then everything you do is for Him, because you are now a follower of Jesus - His disciple. You can only have one Master.

It is not I who is suffering from a lack of understanding. See above.

I am convinced that when Scripture tells me Christ's atoning work at Calvary fully and perfectly satisfied God's justice and holiness, that this is really true. And, consequently, there is nothing I can do to add to that atoning work. It is finished. Completely. What Christ did for me on the cross needs no additional effort from me, no obedience, no good works. God is perfectly satisfied with what Christ has done. So, when Christ becomes my Saviour and I am, by faith, placed in him and clothed in his perfect righteousness, I am absolutely and permanently accepted by God. It is Christ's righteousness, not my own, that gains me acceptance with God. I am "accepted in the Beloved," Paul wrote (Ephesians 1:6) and it is only ever on the basis of his perfection that my acceptance by God rests. And since Christ's perfection never alters, my acceptance by God never alters. My behaviour has nothing whatever to do with why God accepts me as one of His own. It is all of Christ.

You, though, think you must insert yourself into this equation, you must contribute to Christ's saving work by way of your own Self-effort, by your own obedience and faithfulness. But this, as far as I'm concerned, is to diminish the Saviour's perfect atonement, to earn God's gift of salvation, and to allow the "old man," Self, to usurp the role of Christ as Saviour. I will never accept such a blasphemous doctrine!

setst777 said:
Aiki RE: As I pointed out to you, "partake" carries the idea of partnership which "tares" in the Church do all the time as they participate in the Spirit-empowered life and ministries of the Church. And "tasted" is not suggestive of a full experience of a thing.

setst RE: As I pointed out to you by several Scriptures, that partake means one is sharing in the experience, not just partnering with those that have it. You disagree. Your disagreement is invalid based on the testimony of Scripture.

Well, you're free to think so, but your declaration that my view is invalid has not yet been established from the passage itself. You have had to resort to other unrelated passages to make your case. I have not. This, I think, makes my case rather stronger than yours.

setst777 said:
As for tasting. I am thinking you do not believe Jesus actually died for all of us. Don't you believe in the Gospel?

Hebrews 2:9 (NIV)
9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Are you saying Jesus did not fully experience death for us? In the same way, we also partake of the Spirit, NOT partner with the Spirit.

Therefore, they were saved, but were endanger of losing their salvation.

This is specious at best. I can throw verses at you that use "tasted" exactly as I argue the passage from Hebrews uses it.

Matthew 27:34
34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.

Here Christ has a only a single sip of vinegar. "Tasted" here is used in the sense of "small amount" or "partial."

John 2:9
9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

Here, again, the sense in which "tasted" is used is in a partial, or limited, sense. The ruler didn't slug back an entire amphora of wine. It doesn't sound like he even had a full cup of wine. No, he had just a taste of the wine, a very small amount.

Context is king. When I look at the passage from Hebrews 6, the passage clarifies itself. As I pointed out, the fact that there is a falling away of those who had only "tasted of the heavenly gift," is, as far as I'm concerned, evidence of the only limited, partial experience of the "heavenly gift" that the passage mentions. 1 John 2:19 lends credence to this view. Now, you may infuse the passage with your SAL doctrine, but there is nothing in the passage itself that demands such a reading. I am not under any obligation to be compelled by your eisegesis to adopt your understanding of the passage.

setst777 said:
Aiki RE: In this case, Paul is very clear what it is, precisely, that the Galatian believers were free from: bondage to the OT law which he refers to in verses 1, 3, and 4. So salvation is not in view here. Law-observance is.

setst RE: Are you saying that the Galatians are still saved, even though they are rejecting the Gospel in favor of adherence to the Law?

How could you even think that?...

Your incredulity has no refutative power.

I make my case from the passage itself, looking only to what it actually says in support of my position. You have yet to show from the passage where I am in error.

Also, Paul never says that the Galatians would lose their salvation in accepting the Judaizers law-observance, only that they could not benefit from the grace and liberty found in Christ so long as they followed the Judaizer's legalistic way. I may possess a lawnmower without ever benefiting from it. It has the power to cut grass far faster and more efficiently than I could plucking the grass blade by blade with a pair of tweezers. But if I chose to go the tweezers route in dealing with the grass, it would not mean that the lawnmower in my garage was no longer mine. By the same token, the Galatians working by law rather than grace did not mean they no longer possessed salvation, only that they could not benefit from the liberty from the law available to them in their salvation.

setst777 said:
setst RE: You have to look at the context to get the meaning. In other words, read the surrounding verses to understand what Paul is conveying. When you read the context you will see that Paul is conveying that since Christians are suppose to live by the Spirit, then they better prove it by actually walking in line with the Spirit instead of being conceited, and provoking and conveying each other.

This does not in any way defeat the things I've pointed out from the passage.

setst777 said:
Galatians 1:15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

Your verse reference is wrong here. The verse you've quoted is Galatians 5:15.

I'm out of time for now. Will have to take up my response later.

setst777 · May 12, 2019

Ronald said:
Okay, can't let these go with responding ...
>In conclusion, God works out everything, including your faith.

Hi Ronald

Sorry for the late reply... celebrating Mother's Day with family. I honor all those mothers out their who give and sacrifice of themselves on behalf of their husbands and children. Blessings to you.

Ronald, you wrote a lot from what you feel you understand in the beginning, so nothing to agree or disagree since these are your thoughts.

I will just respond to say that we now have the fullness of God's revelation of the Gospel in the Pages of the New Testament made plain to understand. So we don't have to be in the dark about that.

I will respond to the capital lettered text as follows:

Ronalds writes:
<<
THEREFORE FAITH WAS NOT POSSIBLE WITHOUT GOD'S INTERVENTION, NOR IS IT POSSIBLE TO CONTINUE IN FAITH UNLESS THE HOLY SPIRIT IS IN YOU, GIVING YOU POWER TO PERSEVERE.
>>

setst RE: We are agreed on this as you well know. I have repeatedly quoted the Scriptures for you showing you that God intervenes through His Word (the Gospel) and Spirit to convict the hearts of men. Some will respond in faith, while others will resist the Spirit and Word. You agreed with this, and in your words - 'it is cooperative agreement.'

I also quoted Scriptures showing that we receive the Spirit by faith, and as we faithfully walk in the Spirit whom we received by faith our minds are renewed and God frees us from a life of sin and death. This is salvation. This is taught in various books of the Bible penned by the Apostle Paul, but particularly Romans 8.

You quote me as follows:
<<
Granted and giving are two different words
>>

Ronald writes:
<<
For unto you it is given on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, KJ21 . . .
>>

setst RE: I will grant that the Greek words used for "give" or "grant" Strong's Number: 5483 (and others) has many different meanings depending on how that Greek word is used in a sentence.

In our English, we have words that specifically convey each of many meanings given by that one Greek word "S 5843."

Unfortunately, the Greek language does not distinguish so precisely, so we have to determine the word's meaning depending on how it is used in a sentence within the context of the Greek Scriptures .

As you noted, many Bible translations use the English word "given" in Philippians 1:29

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is "given" on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake

The word "given" carries a meaning in Phil 1:29, that is different than if I was to place the word "gave" instead of given...

"For God "gave" you, not only your faith but your suffering on behalf of Christ.

Do you see the difference?

The actual idea conveyed in Phil 1:29 is not that God is giving you faith and suffering, but that Christians are given (granted) by God to believe and also to suffer for Christ's sake.

If you disagree, that is okay. However, I base my understanding by the context given, not only in the context of Philippians 1, but also of the entire Bible. Whether the OT or NT, God does not give faith to save, but God does lovingly grant mankind to believe in Him and pleads with us to repent and to believe in Him.

Ezekiel 18 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

For instance: In Acts 11, the Apostle Peter shows the other Jewish converts to Christianity that the reason why he had to accept the Gentiles right to be saved is because, God showed him that God also granted the Gentiles repentance that leads to life, just like the Jews were. Before that time, the Jews thought only Jews could be Christians.

Acts 11:18 (NIV)
18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Notice the granting by God of repentance to Gentiles is open to all Gentiles indiscriminately, not to a specific person.

Just as Prophecy declares:

Isaiah 49:6 (NIV)
6 He says:
“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

Lord Jesus confirms this:

John 10:16 (NIV)
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

And also again re-affirms by the Great Commission: Matthew 28:19-20

So "grant" in this sense, means that God made Jesus to be a light, not only to the Jews, but also to the Gentiles. --- Not that God is giving faith as a gift to anyone - although "gift" is one of the many meanings for this word in Greek.

God is granting faith indiscriminately to Jews and Gentiles alike by making His Son Jesus a light to the Gentiles by means of the Gospel.

You quote me (setst777) as follows:
<<
setst RE: Lord Jesus is the Author of the kind of faith we are to follow. We are to follow Jesus to be saved and live like Jesus lived.
>>

Ronald writes:
<<
Kind of faith? You are being illusive and painfully in denial everything is a gift from God, including your faith.
>>

setst RE: I am just stating what the Passage is saying. That verse does not say "OUR" faith, it says that Jesus is the Author or Pioneer or Chief of faith. By the command of Jesus, we must deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him. Jesus is our pioneer, our example, whom we must follow to be saved.

No Passage states that faith onto salvation is God's gift to the ones he selects to save.

God offers salvation to ALL PEOPLE. Those who believe in Jesus are saved - John 3:16-18

Ronald writes:
<<
He is the author of our faith AND we are urged to follow as He guides and empowers us to do so!
>>

setst RE: Christ Jesus is the Author of faith that we must follow. When we believe, we receive the Spirit of Christ to empower us to live for Him, but only as we, by faith, walk by His Spirit - See Romans 8

Ronald writes:
<<
Here is another misunderstanding: HIS righteousness is imputed to us -- IT IS NOT OUR HUMAN RIGHTEOUSNESS. He paid for it and therefore we are credited, it is on our account.
>>

setst RE: Exactly! No disagreement from me.
God only accredits that righteousness to those who believe. God chooses to accredit His righteousness to us by faith. God gives us credit for our faith.

Ronald writes:
<<
HIS righteousness is given to us - another gift!
>>

setst RE: Exactly. We receive God's promises and gifts by faith.

Ronald quotes me (setst777) as follows:
<<
God predestined those whom God foreknew (those who would believe at the hearing of the Gospel - Rom 10:17) to be conformed to the image of His son. Those God predestined, He called (by the Gospel invitation and the convicting work of the Spirit). Those who are called by the Gospel, (if they do not resist, but believe as Scripture states), then He justifies (we are justified by faith according to the Scriptures - Rom 5:1-2). Those he justifies He also glorifies - salvation.
>>

setst RE: You then respond that its God's doing, even our faith is God's work, presumably meaning that God discriminates by graciously selecting some to give faith to, while the rest of humanity are out of luck, and if faith is God's work then it must be guaranteed to those God selects. Sorry, but that is not in Scripture anywhere. If you choose to believe something God never said in His Word, that is your life.

God himself pleads with us to repent and to remain remain faithful.

Luke 13:34 (WEB) 34 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that kills the prophets, and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, like a hen gathers her own brood under her wings, and you refused!

God places the responsibility on Christians to repent from their fallen condition or be lost...

Revelation 2:10-11 (WEB) 10 Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death.

Revelation 2:4-7 (WEB) 4 But I have this against you, that you left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I am coming to you swiftly, and will move your lamp stand out of its place, unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of my God.

Revelation 3:2-5 … 2 Wake up, and keep the things that remain, which are about to die, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If therefore you do not wake up, I will come as a thief, and you won't know what hour I will come to you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

God the Father and Lord Jesus, by their own words, places the responsibility on you for your faith before Him. Yes God gives believers His Spirit, but not all Christians will be faithful to walk by the Spirit and daily crucify the flesh and follow Christ. Temptation and falling away are REAL possibilities. So we are warned to remain faithful to the end to be saved.

setst777 · May 12, 2019

aiki said:
Well, It isn't God's plan with which I disagree but with your idea that one must perform good works in order to remain saved. You wrote:

Hi Aiki

Aiki wrote:
<<
Aiki RE: To say, as you have, that the retention of your salvation is a product of your effort, of your ability to perform good works, is to say that your works save you.
>>

You quote my response (setst777) as follows:
<<
You saw the Scriptures; I quoted them.

God states that faith is the opposite of works
(Romans 3:27-28; Romans 4:4-5; Romans 9:30-33, Galatians 2:15-16)

Faith leads to obedience (John 10:27-28; John 12:25-26; Romans 16:25-27; Hebrews 5:8, etc).

And God accredits righteousness to those who believe (Romans 4:4-5; Romans 4:11, etc).

If you disagree with God's plan, then you have to take that up with God, not me. Good luck.
>>

Aiki writes:
<<
Well, It isn't God's plan with which I disagree but with your idea that one must perform good works in order to remain saved. You wrote:
>>

setst RE: You are not understanding because your idea of faith does not include giving your life to him - to deny yourself, take up your cross and follow him.

This is the only way you receive the Spirit to work with you faith to free you from sin, and to live out your faith commitment to Jesus.

John 7 (WEB) Bolding mine…
37 “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink!
38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

John 4 (WEB) Bolding mine… 13 Jesus answered her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

The Spirit of Christ living IN us regenerates us unto eternal life after we believe according to the above Scriptures.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.
10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

But you must, by faith, walk by the Spirit to live that New Life...

Romans 8:3 And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us – who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

I never said that we perform works in order to be saved. I have been saying all along just the opposite - that

if our faith is genuine then we have committed to deny yourself and take up your cross and follow Jesus.
If that describes YOU than your faith is real, and by this faith God indwells you by His Spirit to make your pledge of faith a reality - empowering your faith to be victorious, but only as you walk by the Spirit you received by faith.
You are now living your faith in obedience to Christ as your one Master and Lord - having died to the old life of slavery to sin, and then to follow Christ.

Romans 6
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

John 10:27-28 (NIV)
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

So, the only ones who receive eternal life are those sheep who listen to follow Him.

This is the only kind of faith God accepts to receive eternal life - one that dies to self and lives for Christ.

Our obedience come from a genuine faith in Jesus:

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Hebrews 5
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

Romans 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith —27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

If your faith is really in Jesus then you are His disciple whom you obey.

Why? because you have died to the old nature and now live for Christ as your master.

Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB)
19 Go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you.

John 14
21 One who has my commandments, and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him.”

1 John 2
4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But whoever keeps his word, God’s love has most certainly been perfected in him. This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

Living in obedience to Christ by faith is the opposite of works.

A works salvation is expressed in not being willing to give your life to Jesus by faith. . .
So, instead, you are attempting to justify yourself before God by doing some works in an attempt to appease God and show him you are producing fruit.
Doing good things without having died to self and living for Jesus is a works salvation.

The true Bible Faith that guarantees your salvation must be demonstrated in repentance from the former life ruled by the flesh, and instead committing your entire life as a disciple of Lord Jesus. . .

Romans 6 (NIV)
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

A true faith states: Christ Jesus is now the rightful Lord over my life whom I follow – to deny myself and take up my cross daily and follow Him. This faith in Christ results in a changed life of Love, and this fulfills the law – which is founded in Love.

Romans 8 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us – who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

This changed life is the result of dying to your life in the sinful nature, and now living to follow Christ, by His Spirit – this is a sanctified life of Love. This results in eternal life.

If you have this faith, then you can do nothing but live in obedience to Christ Jesus - to not be controlled by any sins, and then to live a new life of love and service to others.

You quote me (setst777) as follows:
<<
"God places the responsibility on the Christian to remain faithful and to be overcomers to receive eternal life..."

"Those who have the indwelling Spirit must obey the Spirit to be saved"

"You can be saved by faith, but be severed from Christ if you do not stand firm in the faith - the possibility of losing ones salvation is very real, that is why we must fear God..."

"You can be blotted out of the Book of Life if you do not remain faithful, therefore God places the responsibility on Christians to remain victorious..."
>>

Aiki writes:
<<
Every one of these statements of yours places the responsibility for one's salvation ultimately upon one's self, not Christ.
>>

setst RE: Firstly, you didn't quote the Passages I gave with those statements and with the context I intended.

God places the responsibility of your FAITH on YOU.
God grants salvation to those who's faith leads them to listen to and follow Jesus - to obey all things he has commanded of us as His disciples.

Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB)
19 Go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you.

Everything else you wrote is irrational, because you do not understand what a true faith in Jesus means. I knew this from the first discussion we had on this topic a few weeks ago, when you said that you didn't have to obey Jesus to be saved. That revealed to me that your faith was dead, and did not understand what it means to die to self and live for Christ. You don't understand how faith must lead you to being a follower of Jesus for your salvation.

FAITH VS WORKS

This new life is not the same as a person who remains under slavery to the carnal self and does works to gain God’s mercy.

Works Salvation
Those who are still ruled by the flesh may think that by doing good works of the law that they will show God that he is saved, and so he thinks his good works will justify him before God - bearing some fruits. However, God who knows that person’s heart, and the intentions of his mind, and who knows all his thoughts, can readily see that this person does not belong to Him – because that person’s master is still the flesh.

You can only have one master. If you serve one, than you disown or deny the other. God will accept nothing less than a total faith commitment to Him.

I submit to you that:

• dying to your old life in the flesh which once enslaved you

• and then following Christ Jesus – a life of Love

is the only kind of faith taught in Scripture that leads to a renewed life and eternal salvation - READ Romans 6. This is the born again experience – a regeneration of your mind by the power of the Spirit through faith in Christ Jesus.

There is a BIG difference between faith that leads to Eternal Life, and that of works – the attempting to earn your place in Heaven by works while your mind remains enslaved to the fleshly nature.

Romans 12:1-2 (NIV)
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

I suggest you examine yourself to see whether you are really in the faith...

2nd Corinthians 13 5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you — unless, of course, you fail the test?

Ronald · May 12, 2019

setst777 said:
I base my understanding by the context given, not only in the context of Philippians 1, but also of the entire Bible.

You propagate your belief on a Faith + Works/Arminian theology. You look at a verse that doesn't support your belief and then you dismantle it, distort it so that it can fit into your package. Such a basic word as FAITH, which God grants in proportions, you dismantle and claim it is not our faith that He is the Author of, it is a separate faith that we must mimic. WOW.

setst777 said:
Acts 11:18 (NIV)
18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Notice the granting by God of repentance to Gentiles is open to all Gentiles indiscriminately, not to a specific person.

Again, deciphering a simple word like grant which means to give like a government grant to a college kid -- it's a gift, seems to be a struggle for you, it doesn't sit well for you so you resort to distort the meaning and making endless efforts to hold to your view.

setst777 said:
I am just stating what the Passage is saying. That verse does not say "OUR" faith, it says that Jesus is the Author or Pioneer or Chief of faith. By the command of Jesus, we must deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him. Jesus is our pioneer, our example, whom we must follow to be saved.

Spiritual Faith is the Faith that comes from God and is given to us. Don't try to distort the meaning. There is a human faith, but that is not sufficient to comprehend God. We required a new program, if you will, to be downloaded in order to function. The human program of faith could not compute God, so He gave us a new program!

setst777 said:
We receive God's promises and gifts by faith.

Works oriented system.

setst777 said:
You then respond that its God's doing, even our faith is God's work, presumably meaning that God discriminates by graciously selecting some to give faith to, while the rest of humanity are out of luck, and if faith is God's work then it must be guaranteed to those God selects. Sorry, but that is not in Scripture anywhere. If you choose to believe something God never said in His Word, that is your life.

And there it is, the Arminian argument against predestination/election, Calvinism. Again you don't have to be a Calvinist to believe that God predestined us before the foundation of the world. He chose us and others you uses for His PURPOSE. Many will not make it. Listen, in order that good is understood, evil was necessary and therefore, only a remnant 1/3 of the population will be saved and the rest lost - God knew this from the beginning, so He uses those reprobates for a purpose. He already knows they will not come to Him and so He lets them go to their own demise (but they serve a purpose). You may think that is not fair and struggle to this day with that!
"But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?" Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? Rom. 9:20

setst777 said:
Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death.

Exhortation, encouragement, obedience, etc. are expected of us. We cooperated but the source of all that is good comes from God. He gives it and we take responsibility to care for it. But Christ did the work for us. Any works done are by the Holy Spirit through us. He gives you a well done good and faithful servant in the end like a Father would his son, who provides everything for him and the boy takes care of it - Good job. But where would that infant who grows into a boy be left alone without the guidance and love? We know, we see it today. Absence of father leads a child to all sorts of evils.

setst777 said:
4 But I have this against you, that you left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I am coming to you swiftly, and will move your lamp stand out of its place, unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of my God.

Repentance is required. That means to turn to God and away from worldly things. His messages to the seven churches (which are Church-types throughout the Church Age) are in fact detailed warnings.
Notice only two of the churches, Philadelphia and Smyrna are faithful. The rest had problems:
Ephesus grew cold and lost her first love and needed to get on track; Pergamos was a worldly church with false doctrines, sinful and materialistic, so we know many attending weren't Christians at all and needed to repent;
Thyatira tolerated sin and was undisciplined - another sign that there were those attending who weren't really born again Christians;
Sardis was a dead church with no fruit, with only a few in there that were saved, so the warning again to repent for those unbelievers was a warning;
Laodicea was neither hot nor cold, but lukewarm, in need of nothing and comfortable own their own throne. These are the rich, who toot their horns when they do something nice, who go to church to be seen and give out of their abundance - they weren't really born again Christians either, so the message again is to repent or else.
And listen, God knew who would be saved, who was on the fence and those not serious. He drew them to Himself, knowing not all would come, but the message was really for a few in the church that needed a kick in the pants. And the churches needed to clean house, get rid of those who were not of the fold - or else he would take away their lampstand (their church).
God chastises those He loves, punishes them when they need it, encourages them and blesses them.

setst777 said:
God the Father and Lord Jesus, by their own words, places the responsibility on you for your faith before Him. Yes God gives believers His Spirit, but not all Christians will be faithful to walk by the Spirit and daily crucify the flesh and follow Christ. Temptation and falling away are REAL possibilities. So we are warned to remain faithful to the end to be saved.

As I said, He gave us a gift to care for and so over and over again He instructs us, commands us to follow and be obedient children - redundancy is a good teacher. He predestined us to be conformed to the likeness of Jesus, He called us, justified us, equipped us, guides us, empowers us to hold onto to the gift. He expects obedience and effort on our part, willingness to follow Him. But we are enabled to do all this by His power, His Word, His love. We can do nothing without Him.
Bye, last time for sure. Go in peace and God Bless.

setst777 · May 12, 2019

Ronald said:
You propagate your belief on a Faith + Works/Arminian theology.

Hi Ronald,

You quoted, in part, my response to one of your questions, as follows:
<<
In our English, we have words that specifically convey each of many meanings given by that one Greek word "S 5843."

Unfortunately, the Greek language does not distinguish so precisely, so we have to determine the word's meaning depending on how it is used in a sentence within the context of the Greek Scriptures .

As you noted, many Bible translations use the English word "given" in Philippians 1:29

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is "given" on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake

The word "given" carries a meaning in Phil 1:29, that is different than if I was to place the word "gave" instead of given...

"For God "gave" you, not only your faith but your suffering on behalf of Christ.

Do you see the difference?

The actual idea conveyed in Phil 1:29 is not that God is giving you faith and suffering, but that Christians are given (granted) by God to believe and also to suffer for Christ's sake.

If you disagree, that is okay. However, I base my understanding by the context given, not only in the context of Philippians 1, but also of the entire Bible. Whether the OT or NT, God does not give faith to save, but God does lovingly grant mankind to believe in Him and pleads with us to repent and to believe in Him.

Ezekiel 18 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

For instance: In Acts 11, the Apostle Peter shows the other Jewish converts to Christianity that the reason why he had to accept the Gentiles right to be saved is because, God showed him that God also granted the Gentiles repentance that leads to life, just like the Jews were. Before that time, the Jews thought only Jews could be Christians.

Acts 11:18 (NIV)
18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Notice the granting by God of repentance to Gentiles is open to all Gentiles indiscriminately, not to a specific person.

Just as Prophecy declares:

Isaiah 49:6 (NIV)
6 He says:
“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

Lord Jesus confirms this:

John 10:16 (NIV)
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

And also again re-affirms by the Great Commission: Matthew 28:19-20

So "grant" in this sense, means that God made Jesus to be a light, not only to the Jews, but also to the Gentiles. --- Not that God is giving faith as a gift to anyone - although "gift" is one of the many meanings for this word in Greek.

God is granting faith indiscriminately to Jews and Gentiles alike by making His Son Jesus a light to the Gentiles by means of the Gospel.
>>

Ronald's Response:
<<
You propagate your belief on a Faith + Works/Arminian theology. You look at a verse that doesn't support your belief and then you dismantle it, distort it so that it can fit into your package. Such a basic word as FAITH, which God grants in proportions, you dismantle and claim it is not our faith that He is the Author of, it is a separate faith that we must mimic. WOW.
>>

setst RE: While looking at the full context may seem like dismantling to you, that is only because I am dismantling your biased understanding of an isolated text in which you are supplying your own meaning outside of the context of Scripture.

The Passage states that Jesus is the Author or Pioneer of Faith. This is HIS faith, not our feeble faith. We are to follow Jesus supreme example of faith to be saved, which is to deny self, as Jesus did, and take up our cross and follow Him to be saved.

Ronald quotes me as follows:
<<
Acts 11:18 (NIV)
18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Notice the granting by God of repentance to Gentiles is open to all Gentiles indiscriminately, not to a specific person.
>>

Ronald RE:
<<
Again, deciphering a simple word like grant which means to give like a government grant to a college kid -- it's a gift, seems to be a struggle for you, it doesn't sit well for you so you resort to distort the meaning and making endless efforts to hold to your view.
>>

setst RE: Is God granting all Gentiles repentance or does it say God is selecting only some Gentiles? Does that mean all Gentiles will repent? No.

Ronald quotes me as follows:
<<
I am just stating what the Passage is saying. That verse does not say "OUR" faith, it says that Jesus is the Author or Pioneer or Chief of faith. By the command of Jesus, we must deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him. Jesus is our pioneer, our example, whom we must follow to be saved.
>>

Ronald RE:
<<
Spiritual Faith is the Faith that comes from God and is given to us. Don't try to distort the meaning. There is a human faith, but that is not sufficient to comprehend God. We required a new program, if you will, to be downloaded in order to function. The human program of faith could not compute God, so He gave us a new program!
>>

setst RE: Show me the Scripture. Remember John 3:16 and all the other saying we must put our faith in Jesus to be saved.

Ronald writes:
<<
"But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?" Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? Rom. 9:20
>>

setst RE: Potter and the Clay....

In Jeremiah 18:2-11 (the Passage Paul used in Romans 9), God (the Potter) purposes to form into a vessel of honor only those who repent. We must repent first. READ . . .

Jeremiah 18 (WEB) Bolding mine… 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him. . . 11 Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Yahweh says: Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return you now everyone from his evil way, and amend your ways and your doings.

How a person or nation reacts in God's (Potter's) hands, will determine how God chooses to form the clay. The fact that the clay is marred in God's hands is not God's doing, because God forms everything perfectly.

Rather, the clay itself was marred, so God formed it for destruction.

God then summarizes in verse 11 - God is telling them the responsibility is on them to repent and God would reconsider the punishment He had intended against them.

Ezekiel 33:11-12 (NIV) 11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’
12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’

In other words, God does not ordain good and evil, and all that occurs; rather, a Sovereign God righteously works out His will according to His omniscience and omnipotence. God’s sovereignty, glory and perfect will is being worked out in His creation in which every person is responsible for his own choices.

Jeremiah 18 is the bases for Paul’s reasoning of Romans 9, which confirms this very thing regarding God’s Sovereignty. This reality clearly shows the indescribable depth of God’s Sovereignty, Wisdom and Foresight, which is unlike any human sovereignty in that a Sovereign God is able to work out His perfect will and plans while at the same time allowing mankind free will choices.

Same in the following verses:

2 Timothy 2 (WEB) Bolding mine… 19 However God’s firm foundation stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.”
20 Now in a large house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of clay. Some are for honor, and some for dishonor. 21 If anyone therefore cleanses himself from latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, and suitable for the master’s use, prepared for every good work.

God forms a vessel into something honorable and sanctified but only if they cleanse themselves.

So, God, as the Potter, chooses to have mercy on those who repent, and chooses to harden those who obstinately keep refusing His grace. That is why Paul, at the end of Romans 9, sums up why God had punished Israel – because they pursued righteousness not by faith but by works. This is actually how Scripture itself teaches us regarding God’s Sovereignty from Genesis to Revelation.

In this way, a Sovereign and Holy God remains an impartial and righteous judge who genuinely loves righteousness and genuinely hates sin, rather than a God of Calvinism who forms people for damnation and others for salvation, which would make God responsible for all the good and evil in the world. As we have seen, by one of Calvinist’s strongest proof texts, Romans 9, this is, thankfully, not the case.

aiki · May 12, 2019

setst777 said:
setst RE: You are not understanding because your idea of faith does not include giving your life to him - to deny yourself, take up your cross and follow him.

I never said that we perform works in order to be saved. I have been saying all along just the opposite - that

if our faith is genuine then we have denied ourselves and we take up our cross and follow Jesus.

If that describes YOU than your faith is real, then you are now living your faith in obedience to Christ as your one Master and Lord.

This is works-salvation. Any time your obedience, or your faith, or your determination, or your effort to deny yourself is made crucial to whether or not you're saved, you are holding to works-salvation. This is, again, an instance where you seem to be conflating inevitability with necessity. Good works are an inevitable result of salvation but they are not, therefore, necessary for salvation. You will see a saving faith inevitably evidenced in obedience to God and in self-denial, but as inevitable as these things may be, they are not required in order to be saved, they are not the necessary means of salvation.

You've never said that you must perform good works to be saved but you have said that in order to continue to be saved one must do so. As I pointed out, this is just moving works-salvation back a step so you can appear to agree with the salvation by faith verses when actually in practice you don't. Your version of how a person achieves salvation is akin to a sea fisherman, out in the deep water in his boat, saving a drowned man and then throwing him back into the sea to swim to shore on his own. The drowned man has been saved from drowning, but if he doesn't succeed in swimming to shore, he will end up drowned anyway. His rescue is really no rescue at all. He is in the same jeopardy he was in when he drowned, even though he has been saved! If he wants to stay rescued and revived, he must keep himself from drowning - which he failed to do the first time he ended up in the water. In the same way, your view of salvation, that, ostensibly, agrees that God saves a person solely by way of their faith in Christ, is not really salvation at all. The saved person only remains saved if he can "swim" well enough spiritually not to "drown" in sin before reaching the shore of eternity. He must save himself by way of his own efforts, by way of his own obedience and faithfulness. Such a view of salvation is not biblical but mixes the work of the believer with the work of Christ at Calvary, making both necessary to salvation and in so doing denies the plain declaration of Scripture that works have nothing - ever - to do with a believer's salvation. (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5)

setst777 said:
Romans 6
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Romans 6:22-23 (NKJV)
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Here Paul explains that having been set free from sin, the born-again believer has become God's slave, producing the fruit of holiness, and is the recipient of everlasting life. Verse 22, though, does not say that "the end, everlasting life" is contingent upon the "fruit of holiness." That is a reading you are forcing upon the verse but is not actually stated in it. And verse 23 makes it clear that eternal life is not the product of holy living but is the GIFT of God extended to us in Christ (as opposed to secured by our good works).

setst777 said:
John 10:27-28 (NIV)
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

So, the only ones who receive eternal life are those sheep who listen to follow Him.

This isn't what the verse actually says, however. Jesus doesn't say that eternal life is obtained by the sheep listening and following his voice. He says that because the sheep are his sheep, they hear his voice and follow him. "My sheep hear my voice," Jesus says, not "Those sheep that hear my voice." Here, again, you are clearly imposing your SAL doctrine upon the verses.

setst777 said:
Our obedience come from a genuine faith in Jesus:

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

No, our obedience arises from the transforming and conforming work of the Spirit within us, not from the exertion of our faith in Christ (Philippians 2:13; Romans 8:13-14). This is what Paul meant when he wrote in the verse above of Christ living in him. Christ lives within every believer in the Person of the Holy Spirit, the spirit of Christ, Paul calls him in Romans 8:9.

setst777 said:
Hebrews 5
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

And what "obedience" is necessary in order for Christ to become for a man the "author of eternal salvation"? A man must obey the command to believe in Him as Saviour and Lord (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). That is all the obedience that is required in order to be saved. Good works are entirely excluded. (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5)

setst777 said:
If your faith is really in Jesus then you are His disciple whom you obey.

Right. But your If-Then statement here presumes an order of events where faith in Christ produces obedience to him. This is correct. An apple tree only produces apples because it is an apple, not in order to be an apple tree.

setst777 said:
Living in obedience to Christ by faith is the opposite of works.

??? Living in obedience to Christ produces works. How, then, can such obedience be opposite to the works it produces?

setst777 said:
A works salvation is expressed in not being willing to give your life to Jesus by faith. . .

No, it is expressed in the belief that one's faithfulness, or obedience, or determination is required in addition to what Christ has done on the cross in order for one to be saved. It assumes that because good works rise inevitably from salvation that therefore they are necessary to salvation. But Paul wrote that a believer is saved, not by works, but unto them. (Ephesians 2:10)

setst777 said:
So, instead, you are attempting to justify yourself before God by doing some works in an attempt to appease God and show him you are producing fruit.
Doing good things without having died to self and living for Jesus is a works salvation.

So is believing that death to Self and living for Jesus are necessary to being saved rather than recognizing them as the fruit of salvation which they are.

setst777 said:
The true Bible Faith that guarantees your salvation must be demonstrated in repentance from the former life ruled by the flesh, and instead committing your entire life as a disciple of Lord Jesus. . .

No, not "must be demonstrated" but, rather, "will be demonstrated." "True, Bible Faith" guarantees that your salvation will be demonstrated by repentance, etc. When you say "must," you confuse again what is inevitable with what is necessary.

setst777 said:
This changed life is the result of dying to your life in the sinful nature, and now living to follow Christ – a sanctified life of Love. This results in eternal life.

No, eternal life isn't the result of good deeds (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5), like dying to Self and living in a sanctified, loving way, but as the result of being "quickened" or made alive spiritually by the Holy Spirit because of one's faith in Christ as Saviour and Lord.

setst777 said:
If you have this faith, then you can do nothing but live in obedience to Christ Jesus - to not be controlled by any sins, and then to live a new life of love and service to others.

Uh oh. Are you espousing holy perfectionism here? I hope not. See Paul's first letter to the Corinthian church.

setst777 said:
Everything else you wrote is irrational, because you do not understand what a true faith in Jesus means. I knew this from the first discussion we had on this topic a few weeks ago, when you said that you didn't have to obey Jesus to be saved. That revealed to me that your faith was dead, and did not understand what it means to die to self and live for Christ. You don't understand how faith must lead you to being a follower of Jesus for your salvation.

This ad hominem and dismissiveness is always the eventual resort of those who realize they are out of their depth in a debate.

I should like you to actually quote me when you make assertions about what I've written. If I wrote anything like, "One doesn't have to obey Jesus in order to be saved" - which I very seriously doubt that I did - I meant that one didn't have to perform good works in order to be saved. That is the only way in which I would ever intend such an assertion.

I know it makes you feel better to think because my "faith is dead" that you can dismiss the hard parts of my argument, but the truth is that my faith is likely far more alive than yours is. At the very least, my faith is not laboring under the many misunderstandings of Scripture that yours is.

I have walked with God for many decades and during that time have not only lived but often taught the identification truths to believers. I know quite well the doctrine of death to Self. From what I can tell from what you've written, better than you do. If you want to improve your understanding of these matters, I can certainly help you.

setst777 said:
Works Salvation
Those who are still ruled by the flesh may think that by doing good works of the law that they will show God that he is saved, and so he thinks his good works will justify him before God - bearing some fruits. However, God who knows that person’s heart, and the intentions of his mind, and who knows all his thoughts, can readily see that this person does not belong to Him – because that person’s master is still the flesh.

You can only have one master. If you serve one, than you disown or deny the other. God will accept nothing less than a total faith commitment to Him.

Can you not see here how you've positioned your Self, your ability to disown Self, and your own "total faith commitment" as central and crucial to God's acceptance of you? You have put yourself where Christ ought to be! He is the important one, the one whose efforts are crucial to your salvation and to God, not you. Goodness! How confused and impossible your walk with God must be!

setst777 said:
I submit to you that:

• dying to your old life in the flesh which once enslaved you

• and then following Christ Jesus – a life of Love

is the only kind of faith taught in Scripture that leads to a renewed life and eternal salvation - READ Romans 6. This is the born again experience – a regeneration of your mind by the power of the Spirit through faith in Christ Jesus.

If you are a genuinely born-again man, you are already dead to Self. Read Romans 6:1-2 and Romans 6:6! Read Galatians 2:20. Read Galatians 6:14. All that remains is for you, by faith, to "reckon" it so (Romans 6:11). As you do, the Holy Spirit will begin to conform you in your living to the fact of your co-crucifixion with Christ. You can't die to your Self by force of will. You must live by faith in the truth that you are already dead spiritually to the "old man," separated from his sin-producing power, by the work of Christ at Calvary. But all of this is not the means to salvation but the fruit of it.

setst777 said:
I suggest you examine yourself to see whether you are really in the faith...

Right back at you!

setst777 · May 13, 2019

Hi Aiki

You write:
<<
This is works-salvation. Any time your obedience, or your faith, or your determination, or your effort to deny yourself is made crucial to whether or not you're saved, you are holding to works-salvation.
>>

setst RE: You are saying the Bible teaches a works-salvation.

Your Faith...

We must put our faith in Jesus in every Passage of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

Putting our faith in God is not a work...

Genesis 15:6 (NIV)
6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

This is way before the Spirit was ever given to regenerate- for Christ has not been glorified yet.

John 7:39 (NIV)
39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

God accredited righteousness to Abraham - not by works - but because he believed God.

Romans 4:2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

God accredits righteousness to all put their faith in God - and that is not works

Romans 4:4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

We must put our faith in Jesus to be justified, and doing so is not a work according to God.

For instance:

Galatians 2:15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.
So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Born of God only by receiving Jesus

John 1:12-13 (NIV)
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

John 3:16-18 (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Peter tells the people that they must repent first and be baptized, and they will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:37-38 (NIV)
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

What must I do to be saved?

Acts 16:30-33 (NIV)
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved — you and your household.”

So many more Scriptures that teach faith is not a work, and that we put our faith in Jesus to be:

justified (see previous Scriptures),
accredited righteousness (see previous Scriptures),
receive the Holy Spirit (see previous Scriptures,
receive God's grace (Rom 5:1-2),
to be saved (see previous Scriptures),
to receive the power of God onto salvation

By faith we receive the Power of God onto salvation

Romans 1:16 (NIV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Your faith must lead to obedience...

Romans 1:5 (NIV)
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Romans 6:16 (NIV)
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey — whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Romans 16:25-27 (NIV)
25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Hebrews 5:8-10 (NIV)
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

John 14:21 (NIV)
21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

John 14:23 (NIV)
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

1 John 2:4 (NIV)
4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

Romans 6
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

The Spirit is only received by obeying Christ Jesus (an obedient faith)...

Acts 5 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

John 14:15-17 (NIV)
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth.

After you receive the Spirit by an obedient faith, then You are:

obligated
to put to death the misdeeds of the body,
to live by, walk in,
to reap to the Holy Spirit to be saved and
set free from sin...

Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Up to you to walk by the Spirit you received by faith

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Up to you to sow to the Spirit you received by faith to reap life

Galatians 6:8 (WEB) 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Up to you to walk in the Spirit you received by faith

Galatians 5 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.

You must live according to the Spirit you received by faith

Romans 8:3-4 (NIV)
3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

If you believe in Jesus then, Christ commands of You to deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Him to be saved...

Mark 8
34 He called the multitude to himself with his disciples, and said to them, “Whoever wants to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it; and whoever will lose his life for my sake and the sake of the Good News will save it. 36 For what does it profit a man, to gain the whole world, and forfeit his life?

setst777 · May 13, 2019

aiki said:
This is works-salvation.
Right back at you!

Hi Aiki,

You write:
<<
So is believing that death to Self and living for Jesus are necessary to being saved rather than recognizing them as the fruit of salvation which they are.
>>

setst RE: Were Spirit-filled believers still having problems with sin in the Churches the Paul wrote to? So does having the Spirit assure us that we are dead to sin and bearing fruit, or are we responsible, by the Spirit to put to death in in our lives, and to live righteously?

Still up to the Spirit-filled believer to put off the old self and put on the new self, and to stop living in sin or be lost.

Ephesians 5:1-6 (NIV)
1 Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

Why would Peter have to instruct the Christians to remain holy and live in referent fear, if it is all the work of the Spirit?

1 Peter 1:13-20 (NIV)
13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Aiki writes:
<<
You can't die to your Self by force of will. You must live by faith in the truth that you are already dead spiritually to the "old man," separated from his sin-producing power, by the work of Christ at Calvary.
>>

setst RE: As a Christian, is putting off the old way of life and putting on the new self still your responsibility, or does the Spirit do this for you?

Ephesians 4:20-30 (NIV)
20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

As a Spirit-filled Christian, are you still responsible to resist indulging in the flesh, and responsible to bear fruits of the Spirit (serving humbly in love), and to walk in the Spirit that you received?

Are you still responsible to crucify the flesh and to keep in step with the Spirit to inherit the Kingdom of God?

Galatians 5:13-26 (NIV)
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

As a Christian, are you still required to walk in love and to not live in any sin to be saved?

Ephesians 5:1-13 (NIV)
1 Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10 and find out what pleases the Lord. 11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

<<
Aiki wrote: No, our obedience arises from the transforming and conforming work of the Spirit within us, not from the exertion of our faith in Christ
>>

setst RE:
Did the Old Testament believers have Spiritual regeneration so they could believe and walk in faith? NO

Do the New Testament believers believe in Jesus before receiving the Spirit? YES

John 7:39 (NIV)
39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

In the New Testament Church, don't we have to repent and have an obedient faith first before receiving the Spirit?

Acts 5 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

<<
Aiki wrote: So is believing that death to Self and living for Jesus are necessary to being saved rather than recognizing them as the fruit of salvation which they are.
>>

setst RE:
The Old Testament saints believed, and their repentance and obedience revealed their faith to be true, before the Holy Spirit was ever sent to regenerate. And the Holy Spirit is only received by faith.

John 7:37-39
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified..

One must believe and repent first before receiving the Holy Spirit...

Acts 2:37-38 (NIV)
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

John 14:15-17 (NIV)
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth.

Ephesians 1 (NIV)
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Since you can only receive the Spirit by first repenting and having an obedient faith, and since the Old Testament believers repented, believed, and walked with God before the Spirit was given, why do you believe the opposite?

Aiki quote me:
<<
A works salvation is expressed in not being willing to give your life to Jesus by faith, 'so instead works are done (fruits of the Spirit) to justify himself as being saved while still living in sin. . .'
>>

Aiki, you RE:
<<
No, it is expressed in the belief that one's faithfulness, or obedience, or determination is required in addition to what Christ has done on the cross in order for one to be saved. It assumes that because good works rise inevitably from salvation that therefore they are necessary to salvation. But Paul wrote that a believer is saved, not by works, but unto them. (Ephesians 2:10)
>>

The Power to be saved is only received by faith

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Justification and the Grace of salvation is only received by faith

Romans 5:1-3 (NIV)
5 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

The Spirit is only received by an obedient faith (Passages given earlier in this message).

setst777 · May 13, 2019

aiki said:
This is works-salvation.
Right back at you!

Hi Aiki,

You quote me as follows:
<<
I submit to you that:

• dying to your old life in the flesh which once enslaved you

• and then following Christ Jesus – a life of Love

is the only kind of faith taught in Scripture that leads to a renewed life and eternal salvation - READ Romans 6. This is the born again experience – a regeneration of your mind by the power of the Spirit through faith in Christ Jesus.
>>

Aiki RE:
<<
If you are a genuinely born-again man, you are already dead to Self. Read Romans 6:1-2 and Romans 6:6! Read Galatians 2:20. Read Galatians 6:14. All that remains is for you, by faith, to "reckon" it so (Romans 6:11). As you do, the Holy Spirit will begin to conform you in your living to the fact of your co-crucifixion with Christ. You can't die to your Self by force of will. You must live by faith in the truth that you are already dead spiritually to the "old man," separated from his sin-producing power, by the work of Christ at Calvary. But all of this is not the means to salvation but the fruit of it.
>>

setst RE:

Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

Exactly! That is obedience that comes from faith . . .

Romans 1:5 (NIV)
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

When you read the rest of Romans 6, you will see that we are now slaves to God, slaves to righteousness. We are, by faith - as we walk by the Spirit (Rom 8) - we offer ourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.

For instance, to show this is the case, let us read more of the context of Romans 6 which shows that we are instructed to be obedient slaves to God.... Paul teaches that we are to offer ourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. Would Paul have to be teaching this if the Spirit does it all by the fruit it bears?

Let's read and see....

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations.
Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of?
Those things result in death!

Then in Romans 6:22-23 Paul sums up as follows:

Romans 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness,
and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Notice the comparison made:

that shameful deeds result in death
while holiness results in eternal life.

You must be a slave of God unto holiness to receive eternal life.

I know you interpret this as if being slaves to God leading to holiness is not necessary for eternal life; however, when I view other Scriptures, that is what I understand. I look at all the Old Testament believers who's faith was demonstrated by their deeds, and then I see New Testament examples teaching the same, it is impossible to explain all of these Passages away.

When we become slaves to God this leads to holiness. And no one will see God without holiness. However, since we are not perfect, although not living in sin of any kind, we will sin in weakness at some points along the path. God is faithful to forgive, but only as we continue in a life of holiness.

1 Peter 1:13-20 (NIV)
13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors
>>

BCsenior · May 13, 2019

aiki said:
Good works are an inevitable result of salvation but they are not, therefore, necessary for salvation. You will see a saving faith inevitably evidenced in obedience to God and in self-denial, but as inevitable as these things may be, they are not required in order to be saved, they are not the necessary means of salvation.

IMO, your logic is grievously lacking!

If good works are a result of salvation
(if they are necessary to prove salvation),
then they are necessary to have salvation.

Without them ...
you have proved that you do NOT have salvation.

Keeping in mind that salvation is a process!

So, while BACs are working out their salvation
with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12),
they must necessarily be doing good works.

Without them, BACs are NOT on that narrow path that Jesus insisted was necessary to walk on down ... in order to reach heaven.

aiki · May 13, 2019

setst777 said:
You write:
<<
This is works-salvation. Any time your obedience, or your faith, or your determination, or your effort to deny yourself is made crucial to whether or not you're saved, you are holding to works-salvation.
>>

setst RE: You are saying the Bible teaches a works-salvation.

No, I'm saying you have misunderstood Scripture, that you're seeing verses and passages in Scripture through the lens of the SAL, works-salvation doctrines which is making those verses and passages you're seeing appear to you to confirm your doctrines.

setst777 said:
Your Faith...

We must put our faith in Jesus in every Passage of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

Hyperbole is not helping your case.

setst777 said:
Putting our faith in God is not a work...

Yes, I'm quite aware of this and have said as much already in my posts to this thread.

setst777 said:
We must put our faith in Jesus to be justified, and doing so is not a work according to God.

Yes, I've already pointed this out in my own posts.

setst777 said:
Your faith must lead to obedience...

No, your faith ought to lead to obedience, it will lead to obedience when it is governed by God's truth and submitted to, and led by, the Spirit. Saying, though, that one's faith must lead to obedience makes obedience necessary to the Christian life when it is only inevitable. This is akin to saying that an apple tree must bear apples. This is obviously false. There are apple trees that, because of immaturity, or disease, or malnourishment, or lack of water do not bear apples. Nonetheless, they are still apple trees. It is not, then, correct to say an apple tree must bear apples. It ought to bear apples and will bear apples when it is healthy and mature, but it doesn't follow, then, that an apple tree must bear apples. So, too, with the born-again believer. He ought to bear the "peaceable fruit of righteousness" in his life and he will do as he walks in moment-by-moment surrender to the will and way of God, by faith claiming and standing upon the promises of God to him, but it doesn't follow, then, that he must bear such fruit spiritually. If he is spiritually immature, or sin-sick, or badly ignorant of the principles and doctrines of his faith, or been led into deception by false teachers, he will not bear good fruit as he ought. Nonetheless, he is still a born-again believer.

setst777 said:
Romans 1:5 (NIV)
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

See? Paul doesn't use the word "must" in this verse.

setst777 said:
Romans 6:16 (NIV)
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey — whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

No "must" in this verse, either.

setst777 said:
Romans 16:25-27 (NIV)
25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Hebrews 5:8-10 (NIV)
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

I don't read the word "must" in any of these verses/passages...In fact, in all of the verses you've cited in support of your assertion that "faith must lead to obedience" not one uses the word "must" in relation to obedience and faith. This should indicate to you that you're doing as I've said above and imposing your SAL thinking on Scripture.

setst777 said:
After you receive the Spirit by an obedient faith, then You are:

obligated

to put to death the misdeeds of the body,

to live by, walk in,

to reap to the Holy Spirit to be saved and

set free from sin...

Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Not sure why you're bothering to point these things out...I understand quite well what God has commanded of His children.

setst777 said:
Up to you to walk by the Spirit you received by faith

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

But this verse says exactly the opposite of what you have! It is by the Spirit that a person lives as a born-again believer and it is by the Spirit that they may also walk as such. It is not, then, up to the believer to live and walk spiritually but the Spirit, who gives the believer spiritual life and enables the believer to live rightly. (Ephesians 2:1; Romans 8:9-11; Titus 3:5; Philippians 2:13) Yikes! You have badly misunderstood how to walk with God!

setst777 said:
Up to you to sow to the Spirit you received by faith to reap life

Galatians 6:8 (WEB) 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

And how is a person who was once "dead in trespasses and sins" able to "sow to the Spirit"? No man seeks after God on his own (Romans 3:11). He must be drawn to Christ by God (John 6:44), convicted by the Spirit of his sin (John 16:8), and enabled by God to repent of his sin and be saved (2 Timothy 2:25). And then he must rely upon God to work in him both the desire and the ability to do His will (Philippians 2:13). So, no, it is most definitely NOT up to us to sow to the Spirit. A believer must have already experienced the work of God that I have just described before doing so is even possible. This is Christianity 101, the most basic truths of the faith.

setst777 said:
You must live according to the Spirit you received by faith

Romans 8:3-4 (NIV)
3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Again, Paul never uses the word "must" in this passage. A believer ought to live according to the Spirit and he will when he is walking rightly with God, but Paul does not say here that he must do so. No, the word Paul uses is "might," that is, possibly, not certainly. Here, again, you have let your SAL, works-salvation doctrinal lens contort what Scripture actually says.

setst777 said:
If you believe in Jesus then, Christ commands of You to deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Him to be saved...

Amen! But this the result of God's work in us by His Spirit; it is not the product of our Self-effort. No man can crucify himself physically. It's just impossible. And no man can crucify himself spiritually. Doing so is also impossible, which is why God has crucified us with Christ.

setst777 said:
setst RE: Were Spirit-filled believers still having problems with sin in the Churches the Paul wrote to?

Absolutely! See his first letter to the Corinthians. The believers at the church in Rome and the Galatian believers were also having serious issues.

setst777 said:
So does having the Spirit assure us that we are dead to sin and bearing fruit, or are we responsible, by the Spirit to put to death in in our lives, and to live righteously?

Of course, we ought to work out what God by His Spirit has first worked into us. But our salvation doesn't rest upon doing so. Our salvation is a work of God, not something we have accomplished for ourselves. And it rests upon the finished, perfect work of Christ, not our Self-effort.

setst777 said:
Why would Peter have to instruct the Christians to remain holy and live in referent fear, if it is all the work of the Spirit?

It is only because the Christians to whom he was writing were indwelt by the Spirit and enabled by Him to "work out their own salvation," that Paul instructs them to live righteously. But he points out again and again that their doing so is only by the Spirit:

Romans 8:13
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Romans 15:19
19 in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

1 Corinthians 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

2 Corinthians 3:18
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Jude 1:24-25
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

And so on.

setst777 said:
As a Christian, is putting off the old way of life and putting on the new self still your responsibility, or does the Spirit do this for you?

The Spirit of God spiritually-regenerates a man (Titus 3:5), altering his desires, transforming his heart, and enabling him to act righteously. He simply receives the Spirit's work in himself, manifesting that work naturally and profoundly in how he lives. It is the Fruit of the Spirit, after all, not the fruit of Self-effort, that the Bible says characterizes the genuine born-again believer. (Galatians 5:22-23)

setst777 said:
setst RE:
Did the Old Testament believers have Spiritual regeneration so they could believe and walk in faith?

No. The "believers" in the OT were not of a kind with the born-again believers of the NT. They believed God, yes, but they were not indwelt constantly by His Spirit, renewed and redeemed as the Christians of the NT were. And it showed. King David was a murderer and adulterer; Moses was a murderer as well, and at times cowardly, temperamental, and doubting; Abraham was a liar and a coward; Jacob was conniving and deceitful; and so on.

setst777 said:
In the New Testament Church, don't we have to repent and have an obedient faith first before receiving the Spirit?

As I have already pointed out earlier in this thread, faith to believe (Romans 12:3), repentance (2 Timothy 2:25), and conviction of sin (John 16:8) are all a work of God within a person. He must move upon a person by His Spirit (John 6:44) before they can act in faith toward Christ and be "quickened" spiritually.

setst777 said:
setst RE:
The Old Testament saints believed, and their repentance and obedience revealed their faith to be true, before the Holy Spirit was ever sent to regenerate.

Are we living under the circumstances of the OT today? No. Not at all. Why, then, are you trying to make their way of walking with God they way we ought to walk with Him today? The OT saints moved in the shadows of things yet to come, God's redemption largely obscured to them, relying on priests and animal sacrifices to pay for their sins rather than the perfect sacrifice of the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the World. Their way of walking with God is not the way we ought to walk with Him.

setst777 said:
Since you can only receive the Spirit by first repenting and having an obedient faith, and since the Old Testament believers repented, believed, and walked with God before the Spirit was given, why do you believe the opposite?

I don't "believe the opposite" to what you've written here. I disagree with the conclusions you're drawing from these things - as Scripture itself does. See above.

setst777 said:
The Power to be saved is only received by faith

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

And where does the faith to believe come from? God. See above.

setst777 said:
I submit to you that:

• dying to your old life in the flesh which once enslaved you

• and then following Christ Jesus – a life of Love

is the only kind of faith taught in Scripture that leads to a renewed life and eternal salvation - READ Romans 6.

No, you have this precisely backwards. The faith, obedience and eternal life of a believer is the fruit of a renewed life accomplished by God. See above.

aiki · May 13, 2019

BCsenior said:
IMO, your logic is grievously lacking!

If good works are a result of salvation
(if they are necessary to prove salvation),
then they are necessary to have salvation.

I'm afraid in attempting to show my lack of logic, you have merely exposed your own. What you have written here is a glaring non sequitur. My snoring when I sleep proves I'm asleep; it is a manifestation of my being asleep. But this doesn't mean I must snore when I'm asleep, that my snoring is essential or necessary to my sleeping. I could use an anti-snoring device and sleep without snoring. My sleep does not, then, depend upon my snoring. So, too, my salvation. My good works prove I'm saved; they are a manifestation of my salvation. But this doesn't mean I must do good works in order to be saved. This is to conflate the inevitable with the necessary. Ignorance, spiritual immaturity, false teaching, and the moral compromise born of these things can all hamper the manifestation of good works in a believer's life. But none of these things can dissolve the work of salvation God has wrought in a person's life. I lay out my reasoning for this assertion in earlier posts.

BCsenior said:
Without them ...
you have proved that you do NOT have salvation.

Possibly. But where you would hold that salvation has been lost, I would hold it was never possessed in the first place. Sometimes, too, other factors are at work. See above.

BCsenior said:
Keeping in mind that salvation is a process!

The working out and full experience of salvation is a process. But salvation itself is not a process but a Person: Jesus Christ. (1 John 5:11-13)

BCsenior said:
So, while BACs are working out their salvation
with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12),
they must necessarily be doing good works.

Feel free to show me the verses that use the word "must" or "necessarily" in relation to good works and salvation.

BCsenior · May 13, 2019

aiki said:
Feel free to show me the verses that use the word "must" or "necessarily" in relation to good works and salvation.

Sorry that it took so long ... 1/2 second.
Matthew 25 for one.

aiki · May 13, 2019

Give me a verse, please, that actually uses "must" or "necessarily" in relation to good works and salvation. Where is such a verse in Matthew 25 that uses these words in the relation I've asked for?

BCsenior · May 13, 2019

aiki said:
Give me a verse, please, that actually uses "must" or "necessarily" in relation to good works and salvation. Where is such a verse in Matthew 25 that uses these words in the relation I've asked for?

Chow.

aiki · May 13, 2019

Yup. That's right: there isn't one. In fact, I can't think of a single verse in all of the NT that says, "Good works are necessary to salvation, therefore, you must do them in order to be saved." No, this sort of thinking is imposed upon Scripture rather than discovered in it. We ought to do good works, yes, and we will as we are walking well with God, but "ought" and "will" are not equivalent to "must." When a person conflates "ought" and "will" with "must," they are also conflating what is inevitable in the Christian life with what is necessary. Good works are inevitable but, as I've said, they are not necessary.

Aldebaran · May 13, 2019

aiki said:
Give me a verse, please, that actually uses "must" or "necessarily" in relation to good works and salvation. Where is such a verse in Matthew 25 that uses these words in the relation I've asked for?

Oh! I got one!
"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12

Although it's not a work, and it is about being saved by Christ rather than anyone (or anything) else.

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