Fishiness in the Resurrection of Jesus

cloudyday2 · May 12, 2019

Jesus is not the only person who was raised from the dead by God according to the Bible. Lazarus is another obvious case. A person who fell from a window was resurrected according to Acts. There are more examples in this link ( How many people were raised from the dead in the Bible? )

Normally when God raised people from the dead it did not indicate holiness in that person. Instead the miracle indicated holiness in the person who PRAYED. For example, when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead he became more famous as a holy man.

What distinguished Jesus from other people whom God raised is the fact that he ascended into heaven. So why is there so little information and such contradictory information in the gospels about the 40 days after Jesus was raised but before Jesus ascended? Some information suggests that Jesus appeared sporadically. Other information suggests that Jesus spent enough time with his disciples to prepare them to start the Church. The gospel of Mark might have ended with the empty tomb. It is all fishy to me.

HTacianas · May 12, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
Jesus is not the only person who was raised from the dead by God according to the Bible. Lazarus is another obvious case. A person who fell from a window was resurrected according to Acts. There are more examples in this link ( How many people were raised from the dead in the Bible? )

Normally when God raised people from the dead it did not indicate holiness in that person. Instead the miracle indicated holiness in the person who PRAYED. For example, when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead he became more famous as a holy man.

What distinguished Jesus from other people whom God raised is the fact that he ascended into heaven. So why is there so little information and such contradictory information in the gospels about the 40 days after Jesus was raised but before Jesus ascended? Some information suggests that Jesus appeared sporadically. Other information suggests that Jesus spent enough time with his disciples to prepare them to start the Church. The gospel of Mark might have ended with the empty tomb. It is all fishy to me.

The gospels were written not merely to tell the story of the resurrection, but also to convey teachings as if to answer questions. By way of example, compare the apostles receiving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost recorded recorded in Acts 2:3 to their receiving the Holy Spirit at John 20:22.

Pentecost of Acts 2 records the event while John 20:22 conveys a teaching.

Presbyterian Continuist · May 12, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
Jesus is not the only person who was raised from the dead by God according to the Bible. Lazarus is another obvious case. A person who fell from a window was resurrected according to Acts. There are more examples in this link ( How many people were raised from the dead in the Bible? )

Normally when God raised people from the dead it did not indicate holiness in that person. Instead the miracle indicated holiness in the person who PRAYED. For example, when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead he became more famous as a holy man.

What distinguished Jesus from other people whom God raised is the fact that he ascended into heaven. So why is there so little information and such contradictory information in the gospels about the 40 days after Jesus was raised but before Jesus ascended? Some information suggests that Jesus appeared sporadically. Other information suggests that Jesus spent enough time with his disciples to prepare them to start the Church. The gospel of Mark might have ended with the empty tomb. It is all fishy to me.

If you are interested, the best book I know of that researches the Resurrection is Who Moved The Stone? by Frank Morrison. You can get it from Amazon Kindle for $1.14US.

This was a man who set out to disprove the Resurrection, and he started doing his research for the book, but the evidence that he got changed his mind and the direction of his book, and the result is the best proof of the Resurrection that is available.

I think that it is important to do unbiased research before coming to a definite conclusion. You need to fully consider the "for" and "against" to come to an informed decision.

I am having the same issue with the Calvinist/Arminianist controversy. I have studied from a Calvinist perspective for 40 years, but now I have obtained three volumes of the works of Arminius and am reading those through to get a balanced perspective of the issues. Then I can come to an informed and intelligent decision whether I think that Calvinism or Arminianism is the correct doctrine.

cloudyday2 · May 12, 2019

Oscarr said:
If you are interested, the best book I know of that researches the Resurrection is Who Moved The Stone? by Frank Morrison. You can get it from Amazon Kindle for $1.14US.

The Resurrection should describe the Ascension of Jesus to enter the Kingdom of Heaven as the First Fruits of the promised General Resurrection. Being resurrected is not the same as being raised from the dead. You can be resurrected without being raised from the dead, and you can be raised from the dead without being resurrected.

As far as I know there are only three people who ascended into heaven (i.e. resurrected) - Enoch, Moses (according to early traditions that were later suppressed), and Elijah. In the Transfiguration there were three people - Jesus, Moses, and Elijah. Equating Jesus with Enoch makes a lot of sense, because Enoch was equated with the Son of Man in some apocryphal literature.

So the focus of the gospels should have been on the Transfiguration and the later Ascension. Instead the stories of the Ascension seem to be anticlimactic like saying "and Jesus lived happily ever after". The Ascension should have been the focus rather than the Empty Tomb, and that seems fishy.

Presbyterian Continuist · May 12, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
The Resurrection should describe the Ascension of Jesus to enter the Kingdom of Heaven as the First Fruits of the promised General Resurrection. Being resurrected is not the same as being raised from the dead. You can be resurrected without being raised from the dead, and you can be raised from the dead without being resurrected.

As far as I know there are only three people who ascended into heaven (i.e. resurrected) - Enoch, Moses (according to early traditions that were later suppressed), and Elijah. In the Transfiguration there were three people - Jesus, Moses, and Elijah. Equating Jesus with Enoch makes a lot of sense, because Enoch was equated with the Son of Man in some apocryphal literature.

So the focus of the gospels should have been on the Transfiguration and the later Ascension. Instead the stories of the Ascension seem to be anticlimactic like saying "and Jesus lived happily ever after". The Ascension should have been the focus rather than the Empty Tomb, and that seems fishy.

I understand your very valid point. But if you read Paul:

"If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith. In that case, we are also exposed as false witnesses about God. For we have testified about God that He raised Christ from the dead, but He did not raise Him if in fact the dead are not raised" 1 Corinthians 15:13015).

So, if the whole of Christianity is worthless and that believers are actually false witnesses if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then that puts the Resurrection in a very crucial position in Christian faith.

ewq1938 · May 12, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
Fishiness in the Resurrection of Jesus

Yummy fishiness actually

Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

The Righterzpen · May 12, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
The Resurrection should describe the Ascension of Jesus to enter the Kingdom of Heaven as the First Fruits of the promised General Resurrection. Being resurrected is not the same as being raised from the dead. You can be resurrected without being raised from the dead, and you can be raised from the dead without being resurrected.

As far as I know there are only three people who ascended into heaven (i.e. resurrected) - Enoch, Moses (according to early traditions that were later suppressed), and Elijah. In the Transfiguration there were three people - Jesus, Moses, and Elijah. Equating Jesus with Enoch makes a lot of sense, because Enoch was equated with the Son of Man in some apocryphal literature.

So the focus of the gospels should have been on the Transfiguration and the later Ascension. Instead the stories of the Ascension seem to be anticlimactic like saying "and Jesus lived happily ever after". The Ascension should have been the focus rather than the Empty Tomb, and that seems fishy.

The resurrection is the focus because you are correct; there is a difference between being resurrected and being resuscitated!

There were several people who were raised from the dead (at least 5 in the New Testament (not counting Jesus) that I can think of off the top of my head. Yet, look at who was the one who raised them. Jesus on the other hand, is the only one who's ever come back from hell. He was entirely different than the rest. He wasn't just someone "God raised from the dead". Jesus actually raised Himself. He had the power to do so because He's the only human being who's ever lived who had a Divine nature. No one else can make that claim.

Matter of fact; all the people who were raised / resuscitated. That was only possible because Jesus was "the first born from the dead".

ewq1938 · May 12, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Jesus actually raised Himself.

Jesus didn't raise himself. His Father raised him.

No scripture after the resurrection happened says Jesus resurrected himself. Every single scripture AFTER the event happened credits the Father of Jesus as having resurrected Jesus. Jesus had the power and authority to have done it but he didn't need to nor did he choose to resurrect himself. He allowed his Father to accomplish that.

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Act_5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Act 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:

Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Act 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Act 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Act 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

2Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him who made Jesus come again from the dead is in you, he who made Christ Jesus come again from the dead will in the same way, through his Spirit which is in you, give life to your bodies which now are under the power of death.

The Righterzpen · May 12, 2019

ewq1938 said:
Jesus didn't raise himself. His Father raised him.

No scripture after the resurrection happened says Jesus resurrected himself. Every single scripture AFTER the event happened credits the Father of Jesus as having resurrected Jesus. Jesus had the power and authority to have done it but he didn't need to nor did he choose to resurrect himself. He allowed his Father to accomplish that.

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Act_5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Act 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:

Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Act 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Act 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Act 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

2Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him who made Jesus come again from the dead is in you, he who made Christ Jesus come again from the dead will in the same way, through his Spirit which is in you, give life to your bodies which now are under the power of death.

So, you don't believe Jesus is God incarnate - is that what you're saying?

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
John 10:18

ewq1938 · May 12, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
So, you don't believe Jesus is God incarnate - is that what you're saying?

I am obviously not saying that. I was clear that scripture states the Father raised the Son, not the Son rasing the Son.

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.j
John 10:18

He had the power to raise himself from the dead but he didn't raise himself from the dead. I already proved that with the massive amount of scripture proving who raised him. Why even try to counter that much scripture?

The Righterzpen · May 12, 2019

ewq1938 said:
I am obviously not saying that. I was clear that scripture states the Father raised the Son, not the Son rasing the Son.

He had the power to raise himself from the dead but he didn't raise himself from the dead. I already proved that with the massive amount of scripture proving who raised him. Why even try to counter that much scripture?

Like your blurb below says:
"Jesus is God because he, himself says he is God: "I will be his God"
"Jesus is God because the OT says Israel's Rock is God and Christ was the same rock."

So if the Scripture says "God raised Christ from the dead" - Whether the semantics in places say the Father did it or the Spirit did it - (or Jesus says He does it Himself). It's all the same - don't ya think?

ewq1938 · May 12, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
It's all the same - don't ya think?

No. All scriptures post resurrection credit God the Father as the one who raised Jesus from the dead. In otherwords the first person of the Trinity raised the second person of the Trinity from the dead.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

timothyu · May 12, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
It's all the same - don't ya think?

If that were the case then the whole point of putting the will of the Father ahead of His own will was for nothing. Why spend a life doing nothing of His own accord?

The Righterzpen · May 12, 2019

ewq1938 said:
No. All scriptures post resurrection credit God the Father as the one who raised Jesus from the dead. In otherwords the first person of the Trinity raised the second person of the Trinity from the dead.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

What do you do with Romans 8:11 than?

ewq1938 · May 13, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
What do you do with Romans 8:11 than?

It doesn't have any affect on anything already stated.

cloudyday2 · May 13, 2019

@ewq1938 , @The Righterzpen , doesn't it seem odd that some such as Paul seemed to argue that the resuscitation of Jesus was an endorsement of his messianic claims and teachings while the resuscitation of Lazarus was not an endorsement of Lazarus? Up until the resuscitation of Jesus the people who die and rise were just lucky recipients of God's grace, but then with Jesus it became an endorsement of his character. Isn't that fishy?

The Righterzpen · May 13, 2019

timothyu said:
If that were the case then the whole point of putting the will of the Father ahead of His own will was for nothing. Why spend a life doing nothing of His own accord?

Why would it be "for nothing" if it was something He desired to do? Is your life only about "me me me and what I want"?

The Righterzpen · May 13, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
@ewq1938 , @The Righterzpen , doesn't it seem odd that some such as Paul seemed to argue that the resuscitation of Jesus was an endorsement of his messianic claims and teachings while the resuscitation of Lazarus was not an endorsement of Lazarus? Up until the resuscitation of Jesus the people who die and rise were just lucky recipients of God's grace, but then with Jesus it became an endorsement of his character. Isn't that fishy?

Jesus's character didn't need endorsing. He didn't have to die. That was a choice He made. Again, Jesus was very different than any other human being. No one else has a an aspect of their personhood that is wholly God.

And again, Jesus was resurrected, everyone else was resuscitated. They had no power of themselves to be raised. Jesus did, He stated that He received of the Father the command that He could take up His own life again.

Being resurrected is an act of God and this is why all individuals of the Trinity have the power to raise the dead. They are all equal in authority, power, purpose. They are all omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, eternal and immortal. The only difference between the Father, Spirit and Son is that the Son took on an aspect of His existence that was none of these things. That was His human nature.

So of that respect, that nature had not the power to raise itself; yet because that nature was inseparably "cleaved" to the Divine nature, the tearing of the Divine nature from the human nature is what actually killed Him. And He willfully surrendered that nature for that purpose. That was an integral and necessary part of the atonement.

cloudyday2 · May 13, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Jesus's character didn't need endorsing. He didn't have to die. That was a choice He made. Again, Jesus was very different than any other human being. No one else has a an aspect of their personhood that is wholly God.

And again, Jesus was resurrected, everyone else was resuscitated. They had no power of themselves to be raised. Jesus did, He stated that He received of the Father the command that He could take up His own life again.

Being resurrected is an act of God and this is why all individuals of the Trinity have the power to raise the dead. They are all equal in authority, power, purpose. They are all omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, eternal and immortal. The only difference between the Father, Spirit and Son is that the Son took on an aspect of His existence that was none of these things. That was His human nature.

So of that respect, that nature had not the power to raise itself; yet because that nature was inseparably "cleaved" to the Divine nature, the tearing of the Divine nature from the human nature is what actually killed Him. And He willfully surrendered that nature for that purpose. That was an integral and necessary part of the atonement.

It seems that you might have missed the point I have been trying to make in this thread. Resurrection is not just bring somebody back from the dead, AND resurrection is not just bringing part of the Trinity back from the dead. Resurrection is bring somebody back from the dead to be judged and then hopefully to become a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven. The Ascension is what makes the Resurrection, but the Ascension seems to be an afterthought in the gospels ("and Jesus lived happily ever after sitting at the right hand of the Father ... the end"). That is very fishy.

Albion · May 13, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
@ewq1938 , @The Righterzpen , doesn't it seem odd that some such as Paul seemed to argue that the resuscitation of Jesus was an endorsement of his messianic claims and teachings while the resuscitation of Lazarus was not an endorsement of Lazarus? Up until the resuscitation of Jesus the people who die and rise were just lucky recipients of God's grace, but then with Jesus it became an endorsement of his character. Isn't that fishy?

First, Jesus was absolutely not resuscitated*

He was dead and buried. But that aside, does it matter in your view that while such as Lazarus might have been raised, the Resurrection of Jesus--in a glorified body--was about EVERYONEs future?
__________
*come to, revive (Merriam-Webster)

Fishiness in the Resurrection of Jesus

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