When were the angels first created?

trophy33

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Genesis 1:1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
beginning:
רֵאשִׁית
Transliteration
re'shiyth
Pronunciation
rā·shēth' רֹאשׁ (H7218)
Dictionary Aids
TWOT Reference: beginning (18x), firstfruits (11x), first (9x), chief (8x), miscellaneous (5x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. first, beginning, best, chief
    1. beginning

    2. first

The bible says you are wrong!

Well I accept the study in Hebrew of Kiel and Delitzsch who were and still remain amongst the most renowned Hebrew scholars.

So unless you can show linguistically why the 1st 5 versesd are not the first day-- I am all ears. But making accusations without defending them is a cheap side show.

Also:
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

So I do not rely on just one verse, but in other inspired places. See God made the heaven, earth, sea and ALL that are in them---IN SIX DAYS!

that includes the heavens, the earth, the waters, and yes the angels!!!!
Heaven was created on the second day:

"7 And God made the firmament, and God divided between the water which was under the firmament and the water which was above the firmament. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven, and God saw that it was good, and there was evening and there was morning, the second day."

Earth was created on the third day:

"9 And God said, Let the water which is under the heaven be collected into one place, and let the dry land appear, and it was so. And the water which was under the heaven was collected into its places, and the dry land appeared. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gatherings of the waters he called Seas, and God saw that it was good...13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day. "

Therefore, with a use of a simple logic, Gen 1:1 is a prologue to the following text, not the actual creation of heaven and earth. Why would He create it twice?
 
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nolidad

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Heaven was created on the second day:

"7 And God made the firmament, and God divided between the water which was under the firmament and the water which was above the firmament. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven, and God saw that it was good, and there was evening and there was morning, the second day."

Earth was created on the third day:

"9 And God said, Let the water which is under the heaven be collected into one place, and let the dry land appear, and it was so. And the water which was under the heaven was collected into its places, and the dry land appeared. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gatherings of the waters he called Seas, and God saw that it was good...13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day. "

Therefore, with a use of a simple logic, Gen 1:1 is a prologue to the following text, not the actual creation of heaven and earth. Why would He create it twice?


Exodus 20:11
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it

And the bible shows you are wrong in your understanding of Genesis.

And the word shamayim can mean space or the atmosphere- context determines which. Genesis 1:1 he created space vses 6-8 is He creating the atmosphere!
 
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trophy33

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Exodus 20:11
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it

And the bible shows you are wrong in your understanding of Genesis.

And the word shamayim can mean space or the atmosphere- context determines which. Genesis 1:1 he created space vses 6-8 is He creating the atmosphere!
You are putting your modern ideas into the text. Hebrews did not have any atmosphere in their world view. There was earth, firmanent with stars, sun, moon in it which they called heaven and then heaven of heavens where God sits.


OTcosmos.jpg
 
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RDKirk

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The "waters" were present (albeit, in a different form) before He created Light.

"...And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light..." Genesis 1:2-3 NKJV

I would point out that Genesis presents a view of creation that is purely from a human sensory point of view. It's all what a man would see and hear with his ordinary eyes and ears.

It says nothing about what's going on at the microscopic level or what would take a telescope to reveal.

It says nothing about the creation of the spiritual realm.

God's normal method of revelation in the OT is by vision or dream--without narration.
 
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nolidad

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You are putting your modern ideas into the text. Hebrews did not have any atmosphere in their world view. There was earth, firmanent with stars, sun, moon in it which they called heaven and then heaven of heavens where God sits.


OTcosmos.jpg


First your art work is not of Jewish origin but a modern imposition onto Jewish thought based on what the pagan cultures believed!

And you are just wrong about the heaven and heaven of heavens

2 Chronicles 6:18
But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

Israel believed in three heavens- 2 created and one the throne of God!

You should pay attention to the words more closely instead of trying to get Scripture bend to your presuppositional world view.

Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Heaven is singular (one was created)

Genesis 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Heavens is plural (more than one)

So are you saying god was homeless for all eternity past???

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Heaven here is plural!

Israel believed in three heavens 2 created and the throne of God! Sorry but that is Jewish teaching- not modern man hoisting modern thought into ancient truths.
 
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nolidad

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Heaven was created on the second day:

"7 And God made the firmament, and God divided between the water which was under the firmament and the water which was above the firmament. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven, and God saw that it was good, and there was evening and there was morning, the second day."

Earth was created on the third day:

"9 And God said, Let the water which is under the heaven be collected into one place, and let the dry land appear, and it was so. And the water which was under the heaven was collected into its places, and the dry land appeared. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gatherings of the waters he called Seas, and God saw that it was good...13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day. "

Therefore, with a use of a simple logic, Gen 1:1 is a prologue to the following text, not the actual creation of heaven and earth. Why would He create it twice?


And once again you should stop trying to use faulty human logic in trying to discern the word!

In both verse one and verse 10 earth is eretz! Eretz has multiple meanings and once again context (not simple logic) determines meaning. And here God made it easy

Verse 1 means the planet
Verse 10 means the dry ground on the planet!
Many other places eretz means the promised land!

Go past simple logic and learn the Word of God!
 
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Sabertooth

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I would point out that Genesis presents a view of creation that is purely from a human sensory point of view. It's all what a man would see and hear with his ordinary eyes and ears.
Genesis 1:1-Genesis 2:3 was written from God's-eye view.
Genesis 2:4-25, Man's-eye view. Specifically, it was an elaboration of Day 6.
 
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RDKirk

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Genesis 1:1-Genesis 2:3 was written from God's-eye view.

No, they aren't.

What was going on in the outer reaches of space? What was going on at the depths of the sea? What was going on with bacteria?

Although it appears to be God speaking, all that is spoken of is nothing more than a man would see, watching the events with naked eyes.
 
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trophy33

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And once again you should stop trying to use faulty human logic in trying to discern the word!
Verse 1 means the planet
Verse 10 means the dry ground on the planet!
Many other places eretz means the promised land!

Go past simple logic and learn the Word of God!
Hebrews did not have any concept of a planet, therefore the verse 1 does not mean that.

Hebrews, similarly to other ancient nations of the East, saw the world as this:

OTcosmos.jpg


You are forcing modern cosmological ideas into the text that has a different background. Therefore, you bend the text to accomodate it to today instead of trying to understand it.

Therefore, its you who should stop using your logic and simply get what the text was saying to the original audience.
 
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trophy33

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First your art work is not of Jewish origin but a modern imposition onto Jewish thought based on what the pagan cultures believed!

And you are just wrong about the heaven and heaven of heavens

2 Chronicles 6:18
But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

Israel believed in three heavens- 2 created and one the throne of God!

You should pay attention to the words more closely instead of trying to get Scripture bend to your presuppositional world view.

Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Heaven is singular (one was created)

Genesis 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Heavens is plural (more than one)

So are you saying god was homeless for all eternity past???

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Heaven here is plural!

Israel believed in three heavens 2 created and the throne of God! Sorry but that is Jewish teaching- not modern man hoisting modern thought into ancient truths.

Ancients sometimes distinguished between heaven where birds fly, a solid firmanent with stars (and these stars fall on Earth from time to time) and God's heaven where He sits and Earth is His footstool.

The Genesis clearly says that the heaven in the meaning of firmanent (stars, sun, moon) was created later, so the first verse means either place for birds (does not make sens) or the same thing - firmanent, i.e. its a prologue. Or, possibly, the spiritual realm for angels.

But earth here does not mean a planet, they did not have such concept.
 
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nolidad

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Genesis 1:1-Genesis 2:3 was written from God's-eye view.
Genesis 2:4-25, Man's-eye view. Specifically, it was an elaboration of Day 6.


that would be incorrect. From verse 8-25 it shows the subsequent events after God made Adam. Genesis 1 where it says male and female he created He them. Is the qal perfect. Once again people do not pay attention to the wording.

vs. 27: 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
notice-in the image....HIM male and female....THEM.

Coupled with chapter 2 - we see that Adam was made in creation week and Eve followed, after Adam was placed in the garden and named the animals. that is the natural flow of the grammar.
 
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nolidad

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Ancients sometimes distinguished between heaven where birds fly, a solid firmanent with stars (and these stars fall on Earth from time to time) and God's heaven where He sits and Earth is His footstool.

The Genesis clearly says that the heaven in the meaning of firmanent (stars, sun, moon) was created later, so the first verse means either place for birds (does not make sens) or the same thing - firmanent, i.e. its a prologue. Or, possibly, the spiritual realm for angels.

But earth here does not mean a planet, they did not have such concept.


You are simply wrong!

God created outer space first in Genesis 1:1 on day one!
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Vse 6-8 is the formation of the atmosphere. on day two!

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Day four he populated space!
Day 5 he populated the atmosphere with flying creatures.

When stars fall- that is symbolic of angels. That is well known!

Even Paul knew of 3 heavens:

2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

This was a well established teaching!

Now I freely admit that the ancient people of God did not have the same level of knowledge of science as we do. Things were often murky and fuzzy and people could totally misunderstand what they were inspired to write.


You: "The Genesis clearly says that the heaven in the meaning of firmanent (stars, sun, moon) was created later, so the first verse means either place for birds (does not make sens) or the same thing - firmanent, i.e. its a prologue. Or, possibly, the spiritual realm for angels."

It doesn't make sense only to one who already has a bias against the simple reading of Scripture!

Verse one is a simple statement of creating space.

look at verse 6-8 carefully- He created a firmament and called that firmament heaven! Why would he need to recreate space!

verses 14-18 is god simply populating outer space with the sun moon and stars! on day 4

verse 20 then come the birds! on day 5

You: "But earth here does not mean a planet, they did not have such concept"

Well they did not have full understanding of what a planet is as we do- but as Job is the oldest book of the Bible , Job showed remarkable knowledge of astronomy. So they knew of a difference between what we walked on (eretz) and what we lived on (eretz)


God did not create a spiritual realm- He inhabited it from all eternity! When He created the angels they were placed in what Paul called the 3rd heaven.

I freely admit, that if we only had genesis 1 to go on in the bible, your argument would have some merit, but because the bible is an integrated whole- we know that the ancient people of God knew the difference (not in our modern sense) of the heaven (atmosphere) and heaven (space).

As for the firmament possibly being some translucent barrier? There are excellent arguments both for and against. Not just linguistically, but scientifically as well. But suffice to say of there was some form of barrier that kept the waters in heaven- it is now gone. I cannot stand absolute either way. I believe it was not a solid for the simple fact that elsewhere in Scripture (Psalms, Ezekiel, Daniel) firmament is a stretched out thinness of either the atmosphere or space.

also for the flood- remember no rain had fallen. IN order for rain to fall- water vapor needs a speck of something to adhere to to form a raindrop!

When we look at the order of the waters
1. The fountains of the deep were broken open first! this would involve great tectonic and volcanic activity.
2. As the flood was a global event- there would have been massive "stuff" thrown into the atmosphere for vapor to cling and form drops and then globally create one heck of a rainstorm!
 
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trophy33

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You are simply wrong!

God created outer space first in Genesis 1:1 on day one!
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Vse 6-8 is the formation of the atmosphere. on day two!

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Day four he populated space!
Day 5 he populated the atmosphere with flying creatures.

When stars fall- that is symbolic of angels. That is well known!

Even Paul knew of 3 heavens:

2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

This was a well established teaching!

Now I freely admit that the ancient people of God did not have the same level of knowledge of science as we do. Things were often murky and fuzzy and people could totally misunderstand what they were inspired to write.


You: "The Genesis clearly says that the heaven in the meaning of firmanent (stars, sun, moon) was created later, so the first verse means either place for birds (does not make sens) or the same thing - firmanent, i.e. its a prologue. Or, possibly, the spiritual realm for angels."

It doesn't make sense only to one who already has a bias against the simple reading of Scripture!

Verse one is a simple statement of creating space.

look at verse 6-8 carefully- He created a firmament and called that firmament heaven! Why would he need to recreate space!

verses 14-18 is god simply populating outer space with the sun moon and stars! on day 4

verse 20 then come the birds! on day 5

You: "But earth here does not mean a planet, they did not have such concept"

Well they did not have full understanding of what a planet is as we do- but as Job is the oldest book of the Bible , Job showed remarkable knowledge of astronomy. So they knew of a difference between what we walked on (eretz) and what we lived on (eretz)


God did not create a spiritual realm- He inhabited it from all eternity! When He created the angels they were placed in what Paul called the 3rd heaven.

I freely admit, that if we only had genesis 1 to go on in the bible, your argument would have some merit, but because the bible is an integrated whole- we know that the ancient people of God knew the difference (not in our modern sense) of the heaven (atmosphere) and heaven (space).

As for the firmament possibly being some translucent barrier? There are excellent arguments both for and against. Not just linguistically, but scientifically as well. But suffice to say of there was some form of barrier that kept the waters in heaven- it is now gone. I cannot stand absolute either way. I believe it was not a solid for the simple fact that elsewhere in Scripture (Psalms, Ezekiel, Daniel) firmament is a stretched out thinness of either the atmosphere or space.

also for the flood- remember no rain had fallen. IN order for rain to fall- water vapor needs a speck of something to adhere to to form a raindrop!

When we look at the order of the waters
1. The fountains of the deep were broken open first! this would involve great tectonic and volcanic activity.
2. As the flood was a global event- there would have been massive "stuff" thrown into the atmosphere for vapor to cling and form drops and then globally create one heck of a rainstorm!
You are still putting your ideas to the text. They had no concept of "outer space", "planets", "atmosphere" and similar. Therefore they could not have such things in mind when writing the text.

 
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nolidad

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You are still putting your ideas to the text. They had no concept of "outer space", "planets", "atmosphere" and similar. Therefore they could not have such things in mind when writing the text.


Well I am using our modern words. they just knew them as shameh (our atmosphere) and shameh shamayim the heavens of heavens. If you can't accept me using the modern words- I can't help that! I already said they did not have a comprehensive understanding like we do! But they knew the difference of the atmosphere and space even though they did not call them by the names we have given them.
 
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nolidad

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You are still putting your ideas to the text. They had no concept of "outer space", "planets", "atmosphere" and similar. Therefore they could not have such things in mind when writing the text.



Well I watched your you tube talk.

First I dislikes teh way he went from different concordances to get to his point.'
Second- His implication is that science has discovered how things work- ergo some form of theistic evolution. Which is absolutely foolish! God would not use unbelievers to convey to believers they had misunderstood a young earth for millenia!
Third- His concepts of Sheol are against biblical teaching in that he excludes the paradise part of sheol aka Abrahams' bosom.

Yes the Hebrew language is very less scientific than our modern language!

Like the use of the word kidney! They knew that these things came from within the person- they just used the best word they had available. !

I wil still take the Word of Kiel and Deliotzsch, Alfred Eddersheim (3 19th century Hebrew scholars) and Arnold Fruchtenbaum (a 20th and 21st Cewntury Hebrew Scholar) over Heiser. I am rejoicing he is saved. But he does exactly what he warns us not to do! Interject our own thinking into the texts.

You still cannot get past that Gods created 2 heavens called them in the plural when the singular would have been correct (unless you think when Moses was editing the early chapters of Genesis he was just too stupid) and the third heaven (Gods abode) was well established by the time of David!

Usages of metaphoric language does not negate the truth! god would not intentionally allow a misleading concept to take hold in HIs divine inspired word.

I also noticed He is only two thirds of the way in his hermeneutic. He accepts the historical and grammatical, but not the literal! It may mean little or may it may mean plenty. I don not know enough about the man to know for sure.

BTW the literal also recognizes the common use of metaphor, apocalyptic language, parables etc. But it knows that they have a literal meaning to be found!

According to the Hebrew Scholars I have studied under who actually are Hebrew Christians and masters of Jewish language and history-- Israel was very much different from their pagan counterparts in enormous ways!

It seems his biggest problem is that the ancient believers didn't have a 21st century vocabulary!
 
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