The Forefathers of the Salvation by Works Christians

Servant of Yeshua

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The thief on the cross simply believed in his heart, just as it says in Romans 10:9 "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." But for those of us who are capable, then only out of our extreme thankfulness and true love for Christ will we want to make the most of every opportunity to witness and spread the gospel to all the world and show them by our love who Jesus is. God KNOWS your motivation for serving Him. Whether it is out of pure loving the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind OR..from a checklist obligation or out of trying to impress others.
 
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Shimokita

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Negative my friend, you are saved by the grace of Christ first and foremost. You cannot exert a work of faith without first being a new creation in Christ.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Only a new creation (sheep) can exert a good work and the new creation was designed for that work.
I don't disagree with any of this. I am not sure why you think I do, because all I did was recite Scripture verbatim in that post.

It seems that many people do not actually understand what the Catholic Church teaches.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Rom 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified

First of all I've already provided verses in this thread to you which prove that justification is salvation. And along with verses including that one in Romans 10 which indicates that justification is by faith alone, no mention of works. Like I said, you apparently ignored them.
Justification by Definition is not Salvation. And you Ignore every quote I gave brother(though I do not ignore yours but agree that Justification is by faith also) that shows that if a man does not keep the commandments of God he is none of his(not justified). No matter his faith if a man keeps not the commands of God then by his deeds he shows that he is none of God honoring God only with his mouth.
Justification
Strongs Greek 1344
to show to be righteous, declare righteous
I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.
free, justify, be righteous.
From dikaios; to render (i.e. Show or regard as) just or innocent -- free, justify(-ier), be righteous.

Salvation
Strong's greek 4991
deliver, save
Feminine of a derivative of soter as (properly, abstract) noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally) -- deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.

Strong's Greek 4982
heal, be made whole.
From a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. Deliver or protect (literally or figuratively) -- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

If we look at the whole of Scripture brother we do indeed find mention of works for Justification along with the Justification that comes from faith.
James 2:
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Revelation 14:
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

1 John 3:
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

1 john 5:
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Nowhere do we see Salvation coming by works, but only justification coming by works. Even by scripture alone can we see that Justification and Salvation are two different things. Salvation comes by faith alone. Justification by Faith and works, either one alone is dead being by itself.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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You managed to scramble the apostles teaching again.

Saved by grace.

Saved by grace through faith.

Saved by grace through the mechanism of faith and that faith is a gift anyway.

Saved by grace through faith and that is not enabled by you. You were dead in your sin before being saved by the grace of Christ.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.
I've distorted nothing brother. Though I forgive you for saying this.
By grace we are saved through faith. Take away faith and you are not saved. It is simple brother.
Acts 16:31
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Saved by grace through faith in Christ.
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

We don't start out saved but are saved by our faith/belief in Christ and what he did. That is saved by faith(which comes by the grace of God). By Grace we are saved through faith.
Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Saved through Faith by the grace of God. It is a Gift. Through the grace of the Lord we shall be saved.
Acts 15:9,11
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

This is by faith and belief in Christ and what he did. By Grace we are saved through Faith. By the Lord's grace we are saved through faith.
 
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Servant of Yeshua

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Well then James must not have had faith because he believed that a man is justified by works:

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.​

Let me guess. James didn't really mean "Justified" when he wrote "Justified".
What works did the thief on the cross do other than believe? Romans 10:9. Now I know that he did not have opportunity to give back what he stole as Zacheauss did (though his story is forever in God's love letter to us). So those of us who have opportunity will want to do works out of our thankfulness to the Lord. But we need to really ask: are we doing only the works that WE want to do, or are we truly inquiring of the Lord in every instance as Joshua did. If we inquire of the Lord and He wants us to do something, then we are doing works because we should never say no to the Lord. Then of course we need to pray for discernment and for the ability to love as Jesus loved others in all we say, type online and do.
 
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Shimokita

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What works did the thief on the cross do other than believe?
We don't know much about the thief on the cross other than the few verses that he is mentioned in Scripture. If you are talking about "good works" done after he spoke with Jesus, well obviously Scripture does not state that he did any good works like paying back his debt. But nor does it state that he did not do any good works (such as prayer, for example).

One might even think of his advocating on Jesus's behalf in the statement "“Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” as a good work.

Romans 10:9. Now I know that he did not have opportunity to give back what he stole as Zacheauss did (though his story is forever in God's love letter to us). So those of us who have opportunity will want to do works out of our thankfulness to the Lord. But we need to really ask: are we doing only the works that WE want to do, or are we truly inquiring of the Lord in every instance as Joshua did. If we inquire of the Lord and He wants us to do something, then we are doing works because we should never say no to the Lord. Then of course we need to pray for discernment and for the ability to love as Jesus loved others in all we say, type online and do.
I don't think I have any objections with this.
 
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HTacianas

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Do you accept the following statement by Paul?

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

I do accept that statement. And all of Ephesians 2 for that matter. Ephesians 2:8-9 is Paul's summation of 2:1-7. In 2:1-7 he goes into detail to explain that salvation is not a reward for anything anyone may have done previously. He pointed out that the Ephesians had lived in sin prior to their conversion to prove that point. At Ephesians 2:10 he then explained what was required of them after their conversion.
 
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Ronald

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How does Matthew 25:41-46 fit into all that?
That message will be to the Jews when Jesus returns. They will see Him and mourn. Realizing that He is the Messiah they rejected all along, Jesus reminds them of How they treated Christians, His brothers.
Matthew includes many messages to the Jews.
We are justified by faith alone.
 
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HTacianas

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That message will be to the Jews when Jesus returns. They will see Him and mourn. Realizing that He is the Messiah they rejected all along, Jesus reminds them of How they treated Christians, His brothers.
Matthew includes many messages to the Jews.
We are justified by faith alone.

It cannot possibly be the Jews. At least not the Jews alone. It says "the nations". "The nations" describes the gentile nations. It always has. It likely includes the Jews, but cannot refer to the Jews only.
 
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PaulCyp1

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There is no such things as salvation "by works". No Church on Earth teaches this. However, Jesus made if completely clear that claiming to have faith while not obeying His commands to care for the poor and needy, will not lead to eternal salvation, because it is not true faith.
 
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Ronald

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It cannot possibly be the Jews. At least not the Jews alone. It says "the nations". "The nations" describes the gentile nations. It always has. It likely includes the Jews, but cannot refer to the Jews only.
You are right, not Jews alone, but these are unbelievers, goats on His left, not Christians and They are called "righteous", as in human self righteous or religious righteous like the Jews. They also address Him as Lord, as the Jews would once they realize who He is. That said, according to Rom. 11, a remnant Jewish population will be enlightened before that day of judgment, 1/3 I believe which would be from all nations as well.
 
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fhansen

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The Forefathers of the Salvation by Works Christians

The most serious deviation from a scriptural view of salvation is found in those who make salvation contingent upon one's performance. While today this soteriology can be found in various sects of Christianity, I believe it's origin to be from a deviant sect found in the church at Jerusalem spoken of in the New Testament where, Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." Acts 15:1 Turns out these men came from the church at Jerusalem, where resided the Eleven apostles and James who end up writing to the Gentiles concerning those men, "We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said." Acts 15:24

This was in response to Paul going down to that church to make them aware of the situation whereby their people were preaching this to the Gentile Christians. There he met privately with those who seemed to be leaders to present his gospel to see if they were on board with him. "I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders" Gal 2:2b Acts records that some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses." Acts 15:5 Apparently these were the category of men that had taken upon themselves to preach such an idea to the Gentiles. They were not only members of that church but also on the leadership team. And while Luke, speaking in a generic sense, calls them "believers", Paul says what they really were. "This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves." Gal 2:4

Half measures were then taken to appease them by tinkering with gospel resulting in Neo-Circumcision sects arising which continue the tradition of compromising the gospel to this day.
I'm not sure about the sect you mentioned, or any other sects following along the lines set forth by it. Legalism was alive and well in religious groups and the human heart earlier I'm sure. In any case the Catholic Church, for its part, following Scripture and early Fathers does not find a righteousness that amounts to "filthy rags" in such works described in the following passages:

For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’
Matt 25:35-40

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Rom 2:7

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,...
Rom 8:13

For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Eph 2:10

But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:3-5

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. James 1:27

Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Heb 11:12

Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near. Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.”

“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Rev 22:10-15

Virtually all of these passages and others teach that failing to do acts of righteousness, or committing acts of unrighteousness, will keep one from heaven/eternal life. These are works done according to the New Covenant, inspired by the Spirit, motivated by grace, driven by love to put it another way.
 
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Cis.jd

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Faith alone is an illogical theology. It also logically-refutes the arguments christians make about Morality being evidence of God. If you are going to tell me that a Nazi or serial killer (Dahmer/Ted Bundy) will go to straight into heaven if he accepts Jesus before he dies, while the people they've murdered went straight to hell.. then how is there a such thing as morality or good? Only thing matters.
 
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klutedavid

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Faith alone is an illogical theology. It also logically-refutes the arguments christians make about Morality being evidence of God. If you are going to tell me that a Nazi or serial killer (Dahmer/Ted Bundy) will go to straight into heaven if he accepts Jesus before he dies, while the people they've murdered went straight to hell.. then how is there a such thing as morality or good? Only thing matters.
You forgot about forgiveness.
 
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Calvin_1985

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My friends, why can't we just enjoy Salvation and talk about the Life Jesus has given us? Why argue over this? If you truly have Salvation in Jesus Christ, let's all go from just talking the Truth about it and live it. Let's talk about what Jesus has done and what is doing in your lives. What Promises has given you? How has he shown himself to you in your lives? What are the miraculous things Our Father has done for you and spoken to you? What Has Jesus done in your Hearts, minds, and Souls? What Has he shown you and taught you all? How has he produced wisdom and knowledge in you lives to transform your hearts from an evil heart into a man or woman after his own heart? How has he brought the scriptures to life in your very own lives? How has he actively given you a heart of Humilty and endurance? How about the joys of His Kingdom?

I love all of you and that is why I say these things. We don't need to argue over the Law, but enjoy His Grace, follow Jesus in Faith for all the good things He has in store for us at an eternally endless life.lets enjoy that and talk about how He has manifested in your lives truly proving that the God written of in The Holy Bible is the Spirit that you have encountered and is leading you.

Jesus is and should be everything to us that have believed in His name and His work for Being saved from all sorts of Hell that is brought on us by the sin that rules our lives before we are born again into the Body of Christ. I know he sure saved me out of many things. Myself, my sin, Hell in the here and now as well as beyond the grave. He took a person so evil, so full of hatred, pride, fornication, manipulation, debate, thieving, blasphemer and forgave me and gave me a new heart. Over time, he has continually and gradually transformed me. My Heart, my mind, and my soul. He has given me the Life that I've always wanted. He has given me a peace that passes any understanding. He has given me rest.He has given me eternal life. He has shown and given me Love. He has Taught me Mercy, Judgemebnt, and Faith by His Mercy, judgement and Faith. He has Taight and given me many things. These things of course did come at a great price. It cost me my life, my very existence. The person that I had built myself up to be through my first 30 years of life was the price. Yet it all began with one thing. It began with Faith. Faith in Jesus Christ that he was the answer to all things and that He was the one that was going to rescue me and give me the longing of Love, rest, peace, everlasting life and and a abundance of Life. It definitely took some work to labour for these things but one thing is for sure, the number one thing in walking with Jesus is that He will never leave His sheep nor forsake any of us. We are sealed by His sacrifice of Himself. We may fall away from trusting in him for many things, but the eternality of belonging to our Creator, is 100% in His hands that he paid the price for. In these three years of my New Life in Christ I have been torn to pieces and stripped of everything material, my very livelyhood, to the very person I was in my Heart, my mind, and my soul. I strayed and rebelled. Yet He was always there. Picking me up and showing me Grace and Love, not casting me away and demand I do more works of the Law or Religious practices to make everything right. It was Faith. Faith in Him. That He is everything He promised. He put me through a very tough road only to show the Fathers Hand and it is he that Saves us and It is He that we are given the Life that we truly want and were made for, but He never left me even when I completely deserved it. The Gospel of the Kingdom is about walking and Knowing our God just as Adam walked with Him. It takes some time to get to that place because the Hunan condition is so so radically far from what God intended for us to be, yet, the Beautiful thing is, is that it is attainable. But, you must labour for it and that Labor is that called Faith. A Faith with Fear of The Lord God because that is where Knowledge begins. Not Laboribg to be made right and justified, but Laboribg for the growth of Hin in our Lives and the blessings He has for us that is only recieved through purification by Jesus and Faith in Him alone. Faith is a lost relic today in Christianity, but it's there in yourself, but it must be placed in him for all things. You must listen to His voice and offer your lives so that you may gain an even greater Faith and Revelation of our God and Creator that you never imagined. This is why we must put away that bickering and arguing devouring one another so that we can prove a point. We must lay aside all the convoluted religious conversation and move onto seeking First His Kingdom so that He can further clean us out so that we may come in His presence more and more. Lay aside the worldliness of debate and drink of the Living Waters flowing from the Throne in Zion and follow within the deep footsteps of Our Messiah and way Jesus Christ and Eat the Manna From Heaven. Let us learn to Love each other with the Love Jesus has for us. Let's us leave behind anything that resembles your self prior to knowing Jesus and let Him replace it with Pieces of His own Heart. May Abba Father Bless you all with the Love poured out for you in the Person of Jesus Christ the Messiah. Shalom my Friends.
 
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Danthemailman

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Where does James 2 fit into all of this?

Bible Gateway passage: James 2:14-26 - King James Version

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? - James 2:14
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :oldthumbsup:
 
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lsume

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The Forefathers of the Salvation by Works Christians

The most serious deviation from a scriptural view of salvation is found in those who make salvation contingent upon one's performance. While today this soteriology can be found in various sects of Christianity, I believe it's origin to be from a deviant sect found in the church at Jerusalem spoken of in the New Testament where, Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." Acts 15:1 Turns out these men came from the church at Jerusalem, where resided the Eleven apostles and James who end up writing to the Gentiles concerning those men, "We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said." Acts 15:24

This was in response to Paul going down to that church to make them aware of the situation whereby their people were preaching this to the Gentile Christians. There he met privately with those who seemed to be leaders to present his gospel to see if they were on board with him. "I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders" Gal 2:2b Acts records that some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses." Acts 15:5 Apparently these were the category of men that had taken upon themselves to preach such an idea to the Gentiles. They were not only members of that church but also on the leadership team. And while Luke, speaking in a generic sense, calls them "believers", Paul says what they really were. "This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves." Gal 2:4

Half measures were then taken to appease them by tinkering with gospel resulting in Neo-Circumcision sects arising which continue the tradition of compromising the gospel to this day.
Works based Salvation is not possible. However, Faith without works is dead. Also, Christ consistently stresses to His disciples to be obedient. It is impossible to be obedient without Christ.
 
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bcbsr

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Works based Salvation is not possible. However, Faith without works is dead. Also, Christ consistently stresses to His disciples to be obedient. It is impossible to be obedient without Christ.
So regarding salvation are you saying, as the Catholics seems to imply, that faith in Christ means trust in Christ to help you do good works which will qualify you to be saved?

If salvation is contingent upon works - yes even works of faith - then one's faith is in those works to save them. Such a soteriology is faith in works. In fact if such were the case one couldn't actually obey many of the commands. For most of the commands in the New Testament have to do with attitude. For example if you take something like "love you neighbor as yourself", if a person does so in order to be saved, as with the faith in works soteriology, one does not do so in love seeing as love is not love if self-interest is involved. Such Christians will try to appear to love, but in fact they're just acting in their own self-interest.
 
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