The Forefathers of the Salvation by Works Christians

bcbsr said:

I see you identify as a Berean as well. My bcbsr identity stands for my site "The Berean Christian Bible Study Resources". As for the order of events it seems clear to me that in Galatians 2 he's referring to his experience in Acts 15 and what follows. So Acts 15 would have occurred first as I see it. Here's a link to my study guide on Galatians 2

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Although I am acquainted with Galatians 2, your link to the study guide on Galatians is very well written.

Shimokita said:

Well, to be a bit more precise:

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Justification​

For according to the teaching of the Catholic Church the righteousness and sanctity which justification confers, although given to us by God as efficient cause (causa efficiens) and merited by Christ as meritorious cause (causa meritoria), become an interior sanctifying quality or formal cause (causa formalis) in the soul itself, which it makes truly just and holy in the sight of God. In the Protestant system, however, remission of sin is no real forgiveness, no blotting out of guilt. Sin is merely cloaked and concealed by the imputed merits of Christ; God no longer imputes it, whilst in reality it continues under cover its miserable existence till the hour of death. Thus there exist in man side by side two hostile brothers as it were — the one just and the other unjust; the one a saint, the other a sinner; the one a child of God, the other a slave of Satan — and this without any prospect of a conciliation between the two. For, God by His merely judicial absolution from sin does not take away sin itself, but spreads over it as an outward mantle His own righteousness.​

In a sense, but not if you are referring to typical Protestant concept of alien righteousness, whereby our Lord's own personal righteousness is imputed to a believer. If you read the Bible carefully you will notice that there is not a single verse that actually teaches this.

Well if you say so. Let me put it another way. Has God's love been poured into your heart through the Holy Spirit?

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Catholicism teaches man trying by his own efforts to save himself through sacraments under the cloak of Christ and Gods grace, dispensed by men. Never seeing their wretched state under Gods law you boast in your on righteousness. True conversion produces a life of faith and repentance. This life is brought in Christ and by the power of His resurrection. Catholicism and it’s teachings will not submit to the righteousness of Christ

MDC said:

No, James didn’t believe one is saved and justified by ones works.

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Alas. As I wrote. When James wrote "Justified" he didn't really mean "Justified." Why would the Holy Spirit inspire James to write the word "Justified" when in fact He wanted James to mean something else? If the Holy Spirit wanted James to mean the word "vindicate" would it not make just a tiny bit of sense for Him to inspire James to actually write the word "vindicate", rather than have people go though all sorts of mental mind games to arrive at that result?

He did believe ones works gives evidence of ones faith in Christ. James is coming against empty professors and hypocrites.

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Well I think this true. But it is not the only point that James makes.

If you believe what you said then James and Paul are contradicting each other.

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No, that is not true. James 2:24 means exactly what it says, and Ephesians 2:8-9 means exactly what it says. You can take both verses to mean exactly what they state, without having to reinterpret James to mean almost the exact opposite of what it states.

If you see the law as nothing more than justifying yourself before God by your obedience then you prove yourself to be lost and deceived.

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That is not my understanding of justification, so it is rather irrelevant to me.

This is exactly what the teachings of Catholicism does to a person

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No, that is the conclusion of people who do not understand the teaching of Catholicism.

MDC said:

Catholicism teaches man trying by his own efforts to save himself through sacraments under the cloak of Christ and Gods grace, dispensed by men. Never seeing their wretched state under Gods law you boast in your on righteousness.

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No, what you wrote is false.

True conversion produces a life of faith and repentance. This life is brought in Christ and by the power of His resurrection.

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Well I would say that it is God's grace and the working of the Holy Spirit in the life of a Christian that produces a life of faith and repentance.

Catholicism and it’s teachings will not submit to the righteousness of Christ.

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Perhaps, but why don't we take a look at it? Could you please give me the Bible verse that states "the righteousness of Christ"?

klutedavid said:

Not "Saved by Faith in Christ".

Saved by grace through faith and that is a gift.

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Saved by Grace through the Operation of Faith. It is a Gift. Believe on Christ to be saved/Have Faith in him to be saved.

Faith is the means by which we are saved through Grace. Saved by Faith in Christ.

bcbsr said:

I think he was referring to something like Romans 10
1 Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.
2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.
3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.
4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

And the passage continues on emphasizing that such righteousness is obtained solely by faith apart from one's compliance to law.

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Thanks, but could you please give me the verse that states "the righteousness of Christ"? I would like to discuss that verse, to see if the teachings of the Catholic Church contradict it, as was asserted.

bcbsr said:

You seem to be using the word "justification" in a different way than the apostle Paul does and you seem to think it involves some sort of work on the individual's part. Compare to:

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Ro 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified,
Ro 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Ro 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
Ga 2:16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
Ga 3:8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith,
Ga 3:24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

Justification is the forgiveness of sins, which Peter also acknowledges in Acts 13:38,39 "Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses."

As does Paul in Romans 4
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

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Justified
Strongs Greek 1344
to show to be righteous, declare righteous
I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.
free, justify, be righteous.
From dikaios; to render (i.e. Show or regard as) just or innocent -- free, justify(-ier), be righteous.

This is the Same justification spoken of by Paul when speaking of the Justification that comes from faith(we are not speaking of Salvation just justification right now). James and Paul both tell us how we are justified, Paul in the verses you quoted shows how our faith justifies us, and James shows how our works justify us alongside our faith.

Justification by works and faith within the Law of Christ. We must keep Christ's Law and Commands to show that we are Justified by our works as well as our Faith. Saved by Faith, Justified by both faith and works.

bcbsr said:

I was not the one who brought up that phrase. But feel free to try and resolve the Catholic church's position of the phrase "submit to God's righteousness" in light of Romans 10.

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There is no conflict whatsoever.

bcbsr said:

Apparently you're simply ignoring the verses I quoted from Paul that contradict that position, which is consistent with my experience trying to reason with Salvation by works Christians.

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I havne't ignored them at all brother, what part do you feel I have not addressed? I agreed wholeheartedly with everything written by Paul and said as much. We are justified by faith and not the works of the Law of Moses. I agree with this completely. Then I pointed out once again that as we are also told that Justification comes also from keeping the Law of Christ and works contained within.

Also brother no man is saved by works. We are saved by Grace through Faith alone not of works lest any man should boast. What I am discussing with you here is Justification, not Salvation. We are justified by both faith and works. We both agree that Salvation only comes through Faith in Christ by the Grace of God not by works. So I would politely ask that you not say I am preaching salvation by works since that is not what I am doing.

bcbsr said:

So you agree that justification is by faith alone, as Romans 10 teaches. That is "if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." That's all there is to it. Right?

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I believe this:

I do not believe that "justification is by faith alone" because that is not what Sacred Scripture states, and that is not what Sacred Scripture teaches. Quite the contrary:

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

Saved by Grace through the Operation of Faith. It is a Gift. Believe on Christ to be saved/Have Faith in him to be saved.

Faith is the means by which we are saved through Grace. Saved by Faith in Christ.

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You managed to scramble the apostles teaching again.

Saved by grace.

Saved by grace through faith.

Saved by grace through the mechanism of faith and that faith is a gift anyway.

Saved by grace through faith and that is not enabled by you. You were dead in your sin before being saved by the grace of Christ.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

bcbsr said:

What works are mentioned in Romans 10:9 that you quoted upon which you think salvation is contingent?

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I never wrote that salvation is contingent upon works. One can take the case of infants who die, or people who have severe mental incapacity, as examples of people who are saved without performing any works whatsoever.

But to answer your questions, I do not see any works mentioned in Romans 10:9 at all.

Shimokita said:

I believe this:

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.​

I do not believe that "justification is by faith alone" because that is not what Sacred Scripture states, and that is not what Sacred Scripture teaches. Quite the contrary:

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.​

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Negative my friend, you are saved by the grace of Christ first and foremost. You cannot exert a work of faith without first being a new creation in Christ.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Only a new creation (sheep) can exert a good work and the new creation was designed for that work.