Unjustified Imputed Guilt

redleghunter · May 10, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
I'd like to look at some of the verses you posted.

Sure.

GodsGrace101 said:
Romans 5:12-21
When Adam sinned, sin entered into the human race...it caused death...real death. Physical, and also spiritual death.

Yes of course both physical and spiritual. We were separated from God.

GodsGrace101 said:
Persons were sinning after that, from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, but God did not judge those persons guilty for breaking His laws because He had not yet given the Law. So when their bodies died it was NOT for their own sin because they had never disobeyed God about not eating the forbidden fruit. Then Paul goes on to contrast this with the work of Jesus.

The passage says the exact opposite:

Romans 5: 12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

There was sure law before The Law (Mosaic). The proof of this is in verse 14 where it starts with "Nevertheless." Meaning nevertheless people still died from Adam to Moses because of the transgression of Adam which in him all die.

GodsGrace101 said:
If anything, this disproves what you believe.

Actually proves it. People still died from Adam to Moses. If I'm wrong there are millions still alive from that era.

GodsGrace101 said:
Ephesians 2:1-3
This just says that we are born with the sin nature, just as I've stated. And that we all sin because of it...but it's speaking about our individual sins.
I do not see in these verses anything about our being guilty of Adam's sin.

These verses show the separation from God:

Ephesians 2: 1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

By nature children of wrath.

GodsGrace101 said:
Romans 6:23
OUR sins are the cause of death...Paul is speaking to the Gentiles of Rome. Again, no talk of our personal guilt for Adam's sin.

Here's the significance:

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6)

"For if by the transgression of the one the many died..." (Romans 5)

"For just as in Adam all die..." (1 Corinthians 15)

GodsGrace101 said:
When Paul speaks about our dying for the sin of one...he is speaking that we are suffering from the effect of Adam's sin...he never says that we are personally responsible.

Of course we are not personally responsible for what Adam did, but we suffer the consequences of the father of humanity:

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men..."

GodsGrace101 · May 10, 2019

redleghunter said:
The text does not say that nor implies that.

Of course it says that.
If we are alive in Christ it means we want to be so.
The bible teaches free will.

If we DO NOT want to be saved...then we won't be.

GodsGrace101 · May 10, 2019

redleghunter said:
No, I thought my post explained that. My point is a child who dies is saved just as we are....By God's Grace and nothing we do.

Interesting.
John Calvin believed and taught that infants that die unbaptized go to hell, EXACTLY for the reason that you state:
We are personally imputed with Adam's sin.
Your belief, not mine.

So if a baby dies without baptism he still would have that sin on his soul and nothing unclean gets into heaven.

Augustine taught this and I think you like Augustine.

GodsGrace101 · May 10, 2019

redleghunter said:
Sure.

Yes of course both physical and spiritual. We were separated from God.

The passage says the exact opposite:

Romans 5: 12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Please show me WHERE the above passage states the exact opposite of my post to you.
Death, both physical and spiritual reigned from Adam to Moses....

Please see verse 13 which YOU underlined:
13 for until the Law sin was in the world..
BUT SIN IS NOT IMPUTED WHEN THERE IS NO LAW.

.As you can plainly see from YOUR verse, sin IS NOT IMPUTED when there is no Law.
Yes. God is a just God.

God had NOT given the law between the time of Adam and Moses..He gave the law at the time of Moses. Before that no law existed, and thus no imputation of sin existed.

There was sure law before The Law (Mosaic). The proof of this is in verse 14 where it starts with "Nevertheless." Meaning nevertheless people still died from Adam to Moses because of the transgression of Adam which in him all die.

Sure, people died because death, both physical and spiritual, is an EFFECT of Adam's sin.

These verses show the separation from God:

Ephesians 2: 1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
By nature children of wrath.

Sure it shows the separation from God...an effect of the sin of Adam. Separation from God, from oneself, from others and from nature.

BUT where does Ephesians 2 state that we are personally guilty of Adam's sin? It does NOT.
You confuse the effect of Adam's sin with the personal guilt of his sin.

Here's the significance:

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6)

"For if by the transgression of the one the many died..." (Romans 5)

"For just as in Adam all die..." (1 Corinthians 15)

Of course we are not personally responsible for what Adam did, but we suffer the consequences of the father of humanity:

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men..."

Well amen!
You DO agree with me!

redleghunter · May 10, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
I did show you how the idea of O.S. changed with Augustine and how even the catholic church no longer accepts his theory.

I don't think you showed that. First the Roman Catholic Church has not denied the teachings of Augustine as their CCC sure does reflect his teachings.

Secondly, Augustine seems to get a bad rap, but he was just teaching early church doctrine on original sin. As evidenced by church fathers contemporary or earlier than Augustine:

Origen - “Everyone in the world falls prostrate under sin. And it is the Lord who sets up those who are cast down and who sustains all who are falling. In Adam all die, and thus the world [is] prostrate and requires to be set up again, so that [in] Christ all may be made to live.” (Homilies on Jeremias 8:1)

St. Athanasius - “[W]hen Adam had transgressed, his sin reached unto all men, so [that], when the Lord had become man and had overthrown the Serpent, [His] great strength…[could] extend through all men, so that each of us may say, ‘For we are not ignorant of his devices.’ ” (Against the Arians Book I Chapter 51)

St. Basil of Caesarea - “Little given, much gotten; by the donation of food the original sin is discharged. Just as Adam transmitted the sin by his wicked eating, we destroy that treacherous food when we cure the need and hunger.” (Eulogies & Sermons, Famine & Drought 8:7)

St. Cyril of Jerusalem - “[O]ur forefather Adam was cast out [of Paradise] for disobedience, and exchanged a Paradise bringing forth wondrous fruits of its own accord for the ground which bringeth forth thorns. What then? some one will say. We have been beguiled and are lost. Is there then no salvation left? We have fallen: Is it not possible to rise again? We have been blinded: May we not recover our sight? We have become crippled: Can we never walk upright? In a word, we are dead: May we not rise again? He that woke Lazarus who was four days dead and already stank, shall He not, O man, much more easily raise thee who art alive? He who shed His precious blood for us, shall Himself deliver us from sin.” (Catechetical Lectures 2:4-5)

St. Gregory Nazianzen - “[W]e were all without exception...partake[rs] of the same Adam, and were led astray by the serpent and slain by sin, and are saved by the heavenly Adam and brought back by the tree of shame to the tree of life from whence we had fallen.” (Against the Arians 33:9)

And: “Let the word of Christ persuade you of this, also, as He says that no one can enter into the kingdom of heaven unless he is born again of water and the Spirit. Through Him the stains of the first birth are cleansed away, through which we are conceived in iniquity and in sins have our mothers brought us forth.” (Oratio in natalem Christi.)

St. John Chrysostom - “When Adam sinned that great sin, and condemned all the human race in common, he paid the penalties in grief.” (Letter to Olympia) And: “It is clear that it is not the sin which comes from transgression of the law, but that sin which comes from the disobedience of Adam, which has defiled all.” (Homily on Romans 10)

St. Clement I - “Moreover, it is thus written of Job, Job was a righteous man, and blameless, truthful, God-fearing, and one that kept himself from all evil. (Job 1:1) But bringing an accusation against himself, he said, No man is free from defilement, even if his life be but of one day. (Job 14:4-5)” (Letter to the Corinthians Chapter 17)

St. Justin Martyr - “[Jesus saved] the human race, which from Adam had fallen under the power of death and the guile of the serpent.” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 88:4)

St. Irenaeus - “Men cannot be saved in any other way from the ancient wound of the Serpent except by believing in Him who according to the likeness of sinful flesh was lifted up from the earth on the tree of testimony and drew all things to Himself and gave life to the dead.” (Against Heresies Book 4 Chapter 2 Paragraph 8)

And: “Just as the human race was bound to death by a virgin it is released through a virgin, the obedience of a virgin evenly counterbalancing the disobedience of a virgin. For the sin of the first-formed was wiped out by the chastisement of the First-born, the wisdom of the Serpent was conquered by the simplicity of the dove, and we were released from the chains by which we were bound to death.” (Against Heresies Book 5 Chapter 19)

And: “[Jesus did] away with that disobedience of man which had taken place at the beginning by the occasion of a tree...rectifying that disobedience which had occurred by reason of a tree...the disobedience which had been incurred towards our Maker…[for] it was by these things that we disobeyed God, and did not give credit to His word...indeed we had offended [God] in the first Adam, when he did not perform His commandment. … For we were debtors to none other but to Him whose commandment we had transgressed at the beginning.” (Against Heresies Book V Chapter 16 Paragraph 3)

Tertullian - “Every soul, then, by reason of its birth, has its nature in Adam until it is born again in Christ; moreover, it is unclean all the while that it remains without this regeneration; and because unclean, it is actively sinful, and suffuses even the flesh (by reason of their conjunction) with its own shame.” (On the Soul 40)

St. Cyprian - “[A]n infant...being lately born, has not sinned, except in that, being born after the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the ancient death at its earliest birth. [He] approaches the more easily on this very account to the [baptism] of the forgiveness of sins—[for] to him are remitted, not his own sins, but the sins of another.” (Letter 58, To Fidus)

Reticius of Autun - “No one is unaware of the fact that this is the chief forgiveness in the Church, in which we put away the whole weight of the ancient crime and blot out the former evil deeds of our ignorance and also strip off the old man with his inborn crimes.” (Original work unknown, but quoted by Augustine, who says: “[N]otice the expressions, 'the weight of the ancient crime,’ 'the former evil deeds,' 'the old man with his inborn crimes.' ”)

St. Hilary of Poiters - “Therefore, when He was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, He did not have the sin though He had the flesh. But, since all flesh comes from sin, namely, descended from the ancestral sin of Adam, He was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, not that the sin existed in Him, but the likeness of sinful flesh.”

And: “[David] does not think he lives in this life, for he had said: ‘Behold I have been conceived in iniquities, and in sins did my mother bear me.’ He knows that he was born of sinful origin and under the law of sin.” (Exposition of Psalm 118)

St. Jerome - “Those of adult age [do penance], and it reaches to the smallest, for none is without sin, not even if their life were only one day, or the years of their life were able to be counted.”
(Commentary on Jonah 3:5, Duval 248.101-103; trans. Hegedus, 50).

St. Ambrose of Milan - “Before we are born we are stained by contagion, and before seeing the light we receive the injury of our very origin, we are conceived in iniquity…[for] there are already some sins in the one being born... The conception is not without iniquity, since the parents are not without sin, and if not even a child of one day is without sin, so much more are those days of the maternal conception not without sin. Thus, we are conceived in the sin of our parents and are born in their iniquities. But birth itself also has its own contagions, and the nature itself has not merely one contagion.” (Defense of the Prophet David 11)

And: “For death is alike to all, without difference for the poor, without exception for the rich. And so although through the sin of [Adam] alone, yet it passed upon all; that we may not refuse to acknowledge Him to be also the Author of death, Whom we do not refuse to acknowledge as the Author of our race... In Adam I fell, in Adam I was cast out of Paradise, in Adam I died; how shall the Lord call me back, except He find me in Adam; guilty as I was in him, so now justified in Christ.” (On the Death of his Brother Satyrus II:6)

Ambrosiaster - “ ‘In whom’ -- that is, in Adam -- ‘all have sinned’. And he said ‘in whom,’ using the masculine form, when he was speaking of a woman, because the reference was not to a specific individual but to the race. It is clear, therefore, that all have sinned in Adam, en masse as it were; for when he himself was corrupted by sin, all whom he begot were born under sin. On his account, then, all are sinners, because we are all from him. He lost God's favor when he strayed.” (Commentaries on thirteen Pauline Epistles Romans 5:12)

History & Apologetics: Eastern Fathers who Taught Original Sin Before Augustine (And Western Ones)

redleghunter · May 10, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
John Calvin believed and taught that infants that die unbaptized go to hell,

No he didn't.

GodsGrace101 · May 10, 2019

redleghunter said:
I don't think you showed that. First the Roman Catholic Church has not denied the teachings of Augustine as their CCC sure does reflect his teachings.

Secondly, Augustine seems to get a bad rap, but he was just teaching early church doctrine on original sin. As evidenced by church fathers contemporary or earlier than Augustine:

Origen - “Everyone in the world falls prostrate under sin. And it is the Lord who sets up those who are cast down and who sustains all who are falling. In Adam all die, and thus the world [is] prostrate and requires to be set up again, so that [in] Christ all may be made to live.” (Homilies on Jeremias 8:1)

St. Athanasius - “[W]hen Adam had transgressed, his sin reached unto all men, so [that], when the Lord had become man and had overthrown the Serpent, [His] great strength…[could] extend through all men, so that each of us may say, ‘For we are not ignorant of his devices.’ ” (Against the Arians Book I Chapter 51)

St. Basil of Caesarea - “Little given, much gotten; by the donation of food the original sin is discharged. Just as Adam transmitted the sin by his wicked eating, we destroy that treacherous food when we cure the need and hunger.” (Eulogies & Sermons, Famine & Drought 8:7)

St. Cyril of Jerusalem - “[O]ur forefather Adam was cast out [of Paradise] for disobedience, and exchanged a Paradise bringing forth wondrous fruits of its own accord for the ground which bringeth forth thorns. What then? some one will say. We have been beguiled and are lost. Is there then no salvation left? We have fallen: Is it not possible to rise again? We have been blinded: May we not recover our sight? We have become crippled: Can we never walk upright? In a word, we are dead: May we not rise again? He that woke Lazarus who was four days dead and already stank, shall He not, O man, much more easily raise thee who art alive? He who shed His precious blood for us, shall Himself deliver us from sin.” (Catechetical Lectures 2:4-5)

St. Gregory Nazianzen - “[W]e were all without exception...partake[rs] of the same Adam, and were led astray by the serpent and slain by sin, and are saved by the heavenly Adam and brought back by the tree of shame to the tree of life from whence we had fallen.” (Against the Arians 33:9)

And: “Let the word of Christ persuade you of this, also, as He says that no one can enter into the kingdom of heaven unless he is born again of water and the Spirit. Through Him the stains of the first birth are cleansed away, through which we are conceived in iniquity and in sins have our mothers brought us forth.” (Oratio in natalem Christi.)

St. John Chrysostom - “When Adam sinned that great sin, and condemned all the human race in common, he paid the penalties in grief.” (Letter to Olympia) And: “It is clear that it is not the sin which comes from transgression of the law, but that sin which comes from the disobedience of Adam, which has defiled all.” (Homily on Romans 10)

St. Clement I - “Moreover, it is thus written of Job, Job was a righteous man, and blameless, truthful, God-fearing, and one that kept himself from all evil. (Job 1:1) But bringing an accusation against himself, he said, No man is free from defilement, even if his life be but of one day. (Job 14:4-5)” (Letter to the Corinthians Chapter 17)

St. Justin Martyr - “[Jesus saved] the human race, which from Adam had fallen under the power of death and the guile of the serpent.” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 88:4)

St. Irenaeus - “Men cannot be saved in any other way from the ancient wound of the Serpent except by believing in Him who according to the likeness of sinful flesh was lifted up from the earth on the tree of testimony and drew all things to Himself and gave life to the dead.” (Against Heresies Book 4 Chapter 2 Paragraph 8)

And: “Just as the human race was bound to death by a virgin it is released through a virgin, the obedience of a virgin evenly counterbalancing the disobedience of a virgin. For the sin of the first-formed was wiped out by the chastisement of the First-born, the wisdom of the Serpent was conquered by the simplicity of the dove, and we were released from the chains by which we were bound to death.” (Against Heresies Book 5 Chapter 19)

And: “[Jesus did] away with that disobedience of man which had taken place at the beginning by the occasion of a tree...rectifying that disobedience which had occurred by reason of a tree...the disobedience which had been incurred towards our Maker…[for] it was by these things that we disobeyed God, and did not give credit to His word...indeed we had offended [God] in the first Adam, when he did not perform His commandment. … For we were debtors to none other but to Him whose commandment we had transgressed at the beginning.” (Against Heresies Book V Chapter 16 Paragraph 3)

Tertullian - “Every soul, then, by reason of its birth, has its nature in Adam until it is born again in Christ; moreover, it is unclean all the while that it remains without this regeneration; and because unclean, it is actively sinful, and suffuses even the flesh (by reason of their conjunction) with its own shame.” (On the Soul 40)

St. Cyprian - “[A]n infant...being lately born, has not sinned, except in that, being born after the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the ancient death at its earliest birth. [He] approaches the more easily on this very account to the [baptism] of the forgiveness of sins—[for] to him are remitted, not his own sins, but the sins of another.” (Letter 58, To Fidus)

Reticius of Autun - “No one is unaware of the fact that this is the chief forgiveness in the Church, in which we put away the whole weight of the ancient crime and blot out the former evil deeds of our ignorance and also strip off the old man with his inborn crimes.” (Original work unknown, but quoted by Augustine, who says: “[N]otice the expressions, 'the weight of the ancient crime,’ 'the former evil deeds,' 'the old man with his inborn crimes.' ”)

St. Hilary of Poiters - “Therefore, when He was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, He did not have the sin though He had the flesh. But, since all flesh comes from sin, namely, descended from the ancestral sin of Adam, He was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, not that the sin existed in Him, but the likeness of sinful flesh.”

And: “[David] does not think he lives in this life, for he had said: ‘Behold I have been conceived in iniquities, and in sins did my mother bear me.’ He knows that he was born of sinful origin and under the law of sin.” (Exposition of Psalm 118)

St. Jerome - “Those of adult age [do penance], and it reaches to the smallest, for none is without sin, not even if their life were only one day, or the years of their life were able to be counted.”
(Commentary on Jonah 3:5, Duval 248.101-103; trans. Hegedus, 50).

St. Ambrose of Milan - “Before we are born we are stained by contagion, and before seeing the light we receive the injury of our very origin, we are conceived in iniquity…[for] there are already some sins in the one being born... The conception is not without iniquity, since the parents are not without sin, and if not even a child of one day is without sin, so much more are those days of the maternal conception not without sin. Thus, we are conceived in the sin of our parents and are born in their iniquities. But birth itself also has its own contagions, and the nature itself has not merely one contagion.” (Defense of the Prophet David 11)

And: “For death is alike to all, without difference for the poor, without exception for the rich. And so although through the sin of [Adam] alone, yet it passed upon all; that we may not refuse to acknowledge Him to be also the Author of death, Whom we do not refuse to acknowledge as the Author of our race... In Adam I fell, in Adam I was cast out of Paradise, in Adam I died; how shall the Lord call me back, except He find me in Adam; guilty as I was in him, so now justified in Christ.” (On the Death of his Brother Satyrus II:6)

Ambrosiaster - “ ‘In whom’ -- that is, in Adam -- ‘all have sinned’. And he said ‘in whom,’ using the masculine form, when he was speaking of a woman, because the reference was not to a specific individual but to the race. It is clear, therefore, that all have sinned in Adam, en masse as it were; for when he himself was corrupted by sin, all whom he begot were born under sin. On his account, then, all are sinners, because we are all from him. He lost God's favor when he strayed.” (Commentaries on thirteen Pauline Epistles Romans 5:12)

History & Apologetics: Eastern Fathers who Taught Original Sin Before Augustine (And Western Ones)

Listen RLH, It's not necessary for me to read all that carpet bombing you posted: Here's why:

I know what the ECFs taught.
I know what they believed about O.S.

Augustine CHANGED the meaning of O.S.
HE is the one that claimed it is imputed to each one of us individually. Which is exactly what I'm speaking against.

HE is the one that made it necessary for the CAtholic Church to declare and teach, at THAT TIME, that babies had to be baptized ASAP because if they died they went straight to hell.

Then some lay catholic persons came up with the idea of Limbo, which the church never adopted as an authorized doctrine and which has CLEARLY been denied since VAT II.

I'll post what the catholic church believes today AGAIN.

It DOES NOT believe that babies that die go to hell as it did in the past...after Augustine and till recently. I'm happy to say they've seen the error of HIS ways.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

redleghunter · May 10, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
BUT SIN IS NOT IMPUTED WHEN THERE IS NO LAW.

NEVERTHELESS....

GodsGrace101 · May 10, 2019

redleghunter said:
No he didn't.

Could you post something?
I seem to remember that Calvin believes that infants must be baptized.

redleghunter · May 10, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Listen RLH, It's not necessary for me to read all that carpet bombing you posted:

It's a formation of B-52s refuting your one line assertions. Have a blessed day!

redleghunter · May 10, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Could you post something?
I seem to remember that Calvin believes that infants must be baptized.

Once again an assertion you make in one or two lines and expect me to prove your assertion. You need to establish your claim with a quote or two and a reference.

redleghunter · May 10, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Augustine CHANGED the meaning of O.S.

You have not established the above. I have actually shown via "carpet bombing" the exact opposite.

GodsGrace101 · May 10, 2019

redleghunter said:
You have not established the above. I have actually shown via "carpet bombing" the exact opposite.

It's a known fact and should not require any support...
but here:

The Original View of Original Sin | Vision

BBC - Religions - Christianity: Original sin

The Righterzpen · May 11, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Paul is addressing a single person in his letter to the Christians in Rome?

Could you supply the name of that person?

Scholars always believed the letter of Romans is to the Gentile Christians in Rome. If you have more detailed information, it would be good to know.

As to the singular....Paul is speaking to EVERY MAN OF YOU WHO PASSES JUDGEMENT, Romans 2:1

And in verse 3....DO YOU SUPPOSE THIS, OF MAN...

It's a way of speaking...Paul is speaking to everyone who reads his letter.

Get on Biblehub.com and look it up. Be a Barean!

"Therefore (conjunction) inexcusable (adjective - nominative masculine singular) you are (present indicative active - second person singular) O man (noun - vocative masculine singular) each one (adjective - vocative masculine singular) who (article - vocative masculine singular) is judging (verb - present participle active - vocative masculine singular) in (preposition) that which (personal / relative pronoun - dative neuter singular) you judge (verb - present indicative active - second person singular) the other (adjective - accusative masculine singular), yourself (possessive pronoun - accusative masculine second person singular) you are condemning (verb - present indicative active - second person singular) - {the} (article accusative neuter PLURAL - "articles" are often omitted in translation to English. For example: it makes no sense to say "the Jesus" in English, although technically that's how the Greek is often literally written) for (conjunction) the same things (possessive pronoun - accusative 3rd person PLURAL) you do (verb - present indicative active - 2nd person singular) the one (article nonnative masculine singular) judging. (verb - present participle active - nominative masculine singular)

(PLURAL - just to prove to you that not everything in that verse is in the singular.)

So..... you tell me? Who's Paul addressing? Give me a name!

(Very "app-ro-ve" verse; by the way!)

Maybe ya need to study up a little on your Greek grammar? Huh.... Maybe????

GodsGrace101 said:
When we're born we are already judged...we are lost.
He who HAS believed in the name of the Son will be saved.

Please not that the belief comes first,,,
and then the salvation.

He who comes to the light
so that his deeds may be manifested
as having b een wrought in God.

First he comes to the light.
THEN the deeds are manifested.

INCOMMING! (verse "carpet bombing")

1 Peter 1:
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

(in fear.... hum, interesting phrase!)

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

(Ooooh - lookie here - you're not redeemed by your works! PREACH IT PETE!)

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

(Dang... There's that pesky doctrine of election again! Hate it when they throw that in there; because we all know it was OUR faith that saved us! Woo Hoo - Go ME go ME - There's no "I" in Jesus!)

21 Who by HIM do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

(Who by HIM do believe! Let's say it again. Who by HIM do believe! Faith imparted to a believer by God; who woked that person up!)

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

(It's ME, ME, ME, ME, ME. he must decrease while I increase! Wait a minute Lord - maybe I got that backwards?

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

(Not Adam (i.e. corruptible) but God who lives and abides forever. Sorry dear, but you can't create for yourself eternal faith; because you got a beginning!)

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Romans 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according AS GOD HATH DEALTH TO EVERY MAN THE MEASURE OF FAITH.

(Where's faith come from? What'd you say Paul? Where's it come from? Ya mean it don't come from ME!)

Galatians 2:
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by THE FAITH OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified BY THE FAITH OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

(Note: it does NOT say "faith in Christ"; It says FAITH OF CHRIST!

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

(If we believe any of this originates with us, than we are found sinners; because we destroy the work of God to build our own. "It's me I did this. I believed. I obeyed. I..... fill in the blank. That is not the gospel!)

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live BY THE FAITH OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

(If our faith could save us; there's be no need for Jesus.)

Notation taken from Biblehub.com word definition:

4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

Faith (4102/pistis) is also used collectively – of all the times God has revealed (given the persuasion of) His will, which includes the full revelation of Scripture (Jude 3). Indeed, God the Lord guarantees that all of this revelation will come to pass! Compare Mt 5:18 with 2 Tim 3:16.]

1. The root of 4102/pistis ("faith") is 3982/peithô ("to persuade, be persuaded") which supplies the core-meaning of faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).

Faith (4102/pistis) is always received from God, and never generated by us.

Galatians 3:
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

(So.... are you? - made perfect in the flesh?)

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

(Keep in mind that the definition of the Greek word "faith" was just given above; but, just in case you doubt where that faith originates from?)

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise BY FAITH OF Jesus Christ might BE GIVEN TO them that believe.

(WHERES' THAT FAITH COME FROM AGAIN?)

Ephesians 3:
11 According to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence BY THE FAITH OF HIM.

(Note, it doesn't say "by the faith of us".)

13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16 That He would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man;

17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

20 Now unto Him THAT IS ABLE TO DO exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, ACCORDING TO THE POWER THAT WORKS IN us,

Philippians 3:
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through THE FAITH OF Christ, the righteousness which is OF GOD BY FAITH:

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

(Note: He didn't "accept Jesus". Jesus chased him down and arrested him!)

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

(You vehemently disagree with these verses. That "has been revealed".)

So how many more verses do you want? I can go through the list I'd already "carpet bombed" you with previously. Yet of all that, you don't argue with me; you argue with Scripture. Which leads me to your last statement:

GodsGrace101 said:
First of all, please quote my entire statement otherwise it sounds differently than how I meant it.

And yes, I believe I am righteous enough for God for I live IN CHRIST.
Romans 3:22

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

You misquoted this passage. Again, it's not "faith in Christ" its "faith OF Christ!"

So here we end this and go our separate ways. If you won't listen to the Scripture; I can't help you. I have nothing else to say to you.

The Righterzpen · May 11, 2019

redleghunter said:
There was sure law before The Law (Mosaic). The proof of this is in verse 14 where it starts with "Nevertheless." Meaning nevertheless people still died from Adam to Moses because of the transgression of Adam which in him all die.

I did a study on this (which of course I haven't completed yet - upon discovering it was a bigger subject than seemed easy to answer on the surface. I'll have to segment what I already have and start posting it on the Internet; if you're interested in reading it?

I'm still looking for that verse I mentioned to you in relation to "son of perdition" in Thessalonians.

I'll send the B-52's when I find it. LOL

GodsGrace101 · May 11, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Get on Biblehub.com and look it up. Be a Barean!

"Therefore (conjunction) inexcusable (adjective - nominative masculine singular) you are (present indicative active - second person singular) O man (noun - vocative masculine singular) each one (adjective - vocative masculine singular) who (article - vocative masculine singular) is judging (verb - present participle active - vocative masculine singular) in (preposition) that which (personal / relative pronoun - dative neuter singular) you judge (verb - present indicative active - second person singular) the other (adjective - accusative masculine singular), yourself (possessive pronoun - accusative masculine second person singular) you are condemning (verb - present indicative active - second person singular) - {the} (article accusative neuter PLURAL - "articles" are often omitted in translation to English. For example: it makes no sense to say "the Jesus" in English, although technically that's how the Greek is often literally written) for (conjunction) the same things (possessive pronoun - accusative 3rd person PLURAL) you do (verb - present indicative active - 2nd person singular) the one (article nonnative masculine singular) judging. (verb - present participle active - nominative masculine singular)

(PLURAL - just to prove to you that not everything in that verse is in the singular.)

So..... you tell me? Who's Paul addressing? Give me a name!

(Very "app-ro-ve" verse; by the way!)

Maybe ya need to study up a little on your Greek grammar? Huh.... Maybe????

INCOMMING! (verse "carpet bombing")

1 Peter 1:
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

(in fear.... hum, interesting phrase!)

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

(Ooooh - lookie here - you're not redeemed by your works! PREACH IT PETE!)

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

(Dang... There's that pesky doctrine of election again! Hate it when they throw that in there; because we all know it was OUR faith that saved us! Woo Hoo - Go ME go ME - There's no "I" in Jesus!)

21 Who by HIM do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

(Who by HIM do believe! Let's say it again. Who by HIM do believe! Faith imparted to a believer by God; who woked that person up!)

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

(It's ME, ME, ME, ME, ME. he must decrease while I increase! Wait a minute Lord - maybe I got that backwards?

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

(Not Adam (i.e. corruptible) but God who lives and abides forever. Sorry dear, but you can't create for yourself eternal faith; because you got a beginning!)

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Romans 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according AS GOD HATH DEALTH TO EVERY MAN THE MEASURE OF FAITH.

(Where's faith come from? What'd you say Paul? Where's it come from? Ya mean it don't come from ME!)

Galatians 2:
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by THE FAITH OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified BY THE FAITH OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

(Note: it does NOT say "faith in Christ"; It says FAITH OF CHRIST!

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

(If we believe any of this originates with us, than we are found sinners; because we destroy the work of God to build our own. "It's me I did this. I believed. I obeyed. I..... fill in the blank. That is not the gospel!)

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live BY THE FAITH OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

(If our faith could save us; there's be no need for Jesus.)

Notation taken from Biblehub.com word definition:

4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

Faith (4102/pistis) is also used collectively – of all the times God has revealed (given the persuasion of) His will, which includes the full revelation of Scripture (Jude 3). Indeed, God the Lord guarantees that all of this revelation will come to pass! Compare Mt 5:18 with 2 Tim 3:16.]

1. The root of 4102/pistis ("faith") is 3982/peithô ("to persuade, be persuaded") which supplies the core-meaning of faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).

Faith (4102/pistis) is always received from God, and never generated by us.

Galatians 3:
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

(So.... are you? - made perfect in the flesh?)

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

(Keep in mind that the definition of the Greek word "faith" was just given above; but, just in case you doubt where that faith originates from?)

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise BY FAITH OF Jesus Christ might BE GIVEN TO them that believe.

(WHERES' THAT FAITH COME FROM AGAIN?)

Ephesians 3:
11 According to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence BY THE FAITH OF HIM.

(Note, it doesn't say "by the faith of us".)

13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16 That He would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man;

17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

20 Now unto Him THAT IS ABLE TO DO exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, ACCORDING TO THE POWER THAT WORKS IN us,

Philippians 3:
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through THE FAITH OF Christ, the righteousness which is OF GOD BY FAITH:

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

(Note: He didn't "accept Jesus". Jesus chased him down and arrested him!)

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

(You vehemently disagree with these verses. That "has been revealed".)

So how many more verses do you want? I can go through the list I'd already "carpet bombed" you with previously. Yet of all that, you don't argue with me; you argue with Scripture. Which leads me to your last statement:

You misquoted this passage. Again, it's not "faith in Christ" its "faith OF Christ!"

So here we end this and go our separate ways. If you won't listen to the Scripture; I can't help you. I have nothing else to say to you.

Read your Galatians 3 again and find out what brings us faith:

or by the hearing of faith?
(YOU'RE words)

You got that right.

And since you are determined not to pay any attentionn to scripture,,,I do believe any further discussion with you is a waste of time.

However, you should start from the beginning and study the N.T.

:wave:

BTW, It's NOT hearing by faith...
It's HEARING BY THE WORD
Romans 10:17

yes. much study is needed.

The Righterzpen · May 11, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Read your Galatians 3 again and find out what brings us faith:

or by the hearing of faith?
(YOU'RE words)

You got that right.

And since you are determined not to pay any attentionn to scripture,,,I do believe any further discussion with you is a waste of time.

However, you should start from the beginning and study the N.T.

BTW, It's NOT hearing by faith...
It's HEARING BY THE WORD
Romans 10:17

yes. much study is needed.

And I never wrote "hearing by faith"; I wrote "hearing of faith".

Galatians 3:1-3

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

And the words I posted are exactly what is says in the King James in Galatians 3:2 (as well as the American Standard - hover your mouse over the little tab in the blue letters and read it.)

So thank you for making my point for me. You think you know the Scripture, yet why is it that you can not read? Is talking to me a waste of time because..... you can not read (or just can't admit when you know you're wrong).

Only God can help you there!

PS - "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Jesus is the word of God, only He can cause one to hear. And that's what that verse means.

But again; only God can help you there.

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