3 People Groups Going into the Lake of Fire

Ronald · May 9, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Do we need to be do good in order to get to heaven or can we pretty much do nothing after we're saved, as long as we have faith?

Of course we need to cooperate with God's plan and purpose. We have a responsibility to obey the law of love because sin still dwells in the members of our FLESH. We have a dual nature that wars against each other. So we must say no to sin, to temptations, mortify our old self because we sometimes backside and need to focus on things above. Yes, nourish your faith by studying the Word, pray, love one another ... all mentioned in my previous post.

Kenny'sID · May 9, 2019

Ronald said:
Of course we need to cooperate with God's plan and purpose. We have a responsibility to obey the law of love because sin still dwells in the members of our FLESH. We have a dual nature that wars against each other. So we must say no to sin, to temptations, mortify our old self because we sometimes backside and need to focus on things above. Yes, nourish your faith by studying the Word, pray, love one another ... all mentioned in my previous post.

You changed the question, but no one is going to try to force you to answer. Thanks just the same.

setst777 · May 9, 2019

Ronald said:
We can quote the entire Bible and have quite a different perspective.
.

Hi Ronald,

You write
<<
We can quote the entire Bible and have quite a different perspective.
You seem to credit man as being solely responsible for his faith. You credit salvation and grace to God, but credit man for faith as if faith isn't part of God's gifts.
>>

setst RE: Not one Passage in Scripture states that faith to be saved is part of God's gifts; rather, we receive the gift of salvation through faith, just as the Scriptures teach.

I could quote the whole Bible, but would doing so fail to show that we are not responsible before God for our faith in him unto the end? What I quoted was sufficient to show that we definitely are responsible for our faith before God to be eternally saved. You saw the Scriptures, I did not make them up.

Ronald writes:
<<
"No one can come to the Father unless He draws them".
>>

setst RE:
Lord Jesus taught us that when he is lifted up he would draw all people to himself; yet, many will resist the drawing. But those who do not resist were drawn.

Drawn how? By the Gospel word coupled with the convicting work of the Spirit to draw people to Christ.

John 12:32 (WEB)
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Ephesians 6:17-18 (WEB)
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

Hebrews 4:12 (WEB)
12 For the word of God is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

The preaching of the Gospel is the Word of God coupled with the Spirit's convicting power that Christ commanded was to be preached to every creature.

The drawing of the Spirit and Word is, therefore, that work worldwide work which is outside the person, when Christ would draw all people to himself through the Gospel preaching; yet, this drawing only led to salvation if the person did not resist. If they did not resist, then they were drawn to repentance and faith.

For instance, the Disciples believed in Jesus and his words, and Jesus said the Spirit was with them, but not yet in them.

The same is true for the Old Testament believers - they were drawn by the Word of God and the Spirit before regeneration of the indwelling Spirit. However, many resisted just as Scripture states.

The Spiritual Life he promised to those who believe was the inward working of the Spirit - only by faith, but was only possible after Jesus was glorified.

John 7:37-39
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them." 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

The point is that, the drawing work of the Spirit does not bring about inward change - only the indwelling Spirit accomplishes this.

This Convicting, Enlightening and Drawing by the Spirit and Word is Not Irresistible – Many have and will Resist according to Scripture. . .

Many have and will grieve and resist the Spirit and Word and its enlightening, convicting and drawing work, and be lost.

Acts 7 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do.”

Isaiah 63 (WEB) 10 But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit. Therefore he turned and became their enemy, and he himself fought against them.

Psalm 106 (WEB) Bolding mine…32 By the waters of Meribah they angered the Lord, and trouble came to Moses because of them; 33 for they rebelled against the Spirit of God, and rash words came from Moses’ lips.

Ephesians 4 (WEB) Bolding mine… 30 Don’t grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, outcry, and slander, be put away from you, with all malice.

Hebrews 10 (WEB) Bolding mine… 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Therefore, although the Spirit draws all people to Christ through the Gospel,

Not everyone drawn will believe because they resist.

Also, those who believe, and who have the Spirit, can so grieve and insult the Spirit of grace so as to lose their salvation. As the Scriptures say:

‘You must remain in Christ (the Vine) to be eternally saved.’
‘You must remain faithful to remain in the Holy Olive Root to remain saved or you will be cut off’ (See: Romans 11).

Even when the believer has the Spirit living in them by faith, they still are responsible to live by that Spirit to receive Life....

Romans 8 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6 (WEB)
8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Who are the ones that God gives to the Son? … What do the Scriptures say?

Answer: God gives to the Son those who listen to God – taught by God.

John 6 (WEB) Bolding mine… 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who hears from the Father, and has learned, comes to me.

Who are those who will listen to and be taught by God to Christ?

The Scriptures teach that God foreknew the humble will listen to God, and so will be the ones drawn by the Spirit and Word to Christ. Those who humble themselves are the ones that God elects to save and to give to the son. Those God foreknew, God also predestined for salvation.

Psalm 25 (WEB) 9 He will guide the humble in justice. He will teach the humble his way.

Those who humble themselves are the ones that God elects to save and to give to the son. Those God foreknew, God also predestined for salvation.

Psalm 18 (WEB)
27 For you will save the humble

God promised the humble, in many prophecies, that He would bring them justice and save the humble.

Psalm 18 (WEB)
27 For you will save the humble, but the haughty eyes you will bring down.

God is keeping His promise to all those who humble themselves.

Lord Jesus was sent by the Father to preach the Gospel to the humble and poor in Spirit to fulfill God's promise to them - and they will listen...

Isaiah 61:1-2 (WEB)
(Jesus applied this prophecy to himself)
1 The Lord Yahweh’s Spirit is on me; because Yahweh has anointed me to preach good news to the humble. He has sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and release to those who are bound;
2 to proclaim the year of Yahweh’s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn

All through the Scriptures we are taught that God favors the humble, but He resists the proud.

The Gospel was designed to draw only the simple and humble of this world to Christ - for God has mercy on the humble.

Luke 10 (WEB) 21 In that same hour Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit, and said, “I thank you, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in your sight.”

aiki · May 9, 2019

setst777 said:
God places the responsibility on the Christian to remain faithful and to be overcomers to receive eternal life...

This is works-salvation which the Bible flatly, and explicitly, and repeatedly denies.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

2 Timothy 1:9 (NKJV)
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Titus 3:5-7 (NKJV)
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

setst777 said:
1 Timothy 4 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

So, given the three verses/passages above, how is one to understand this verse from 1 Timothy which Paul wrote? He is, after all, the one who also wrote the verses from Ephesians, 2 Timothy, and Titus which explicitly deny works having anything to do with how a person is saved.

I prefer the NKJV version so I'll repost the verse from it:

1 Timothy 4:16 (NKJV)
16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Whatever Paul meant by these words, if one asserts that he meant that Timothy had to perform certain works (taking heed to himself and "the doctrine" and continuing in them) in order to be saved, then one has put Paul in direct contradiction to himself. The verses from Paul that I cited above explicitly rule out salvation by works. And one cannot get around this contradiction by pushing back works-salvation a step by saying, "God saves you, but after He does, you are responsible to keep yourself saved." This is still obviously works-salvation which Paul has unequivocally ruled out as a possibility.

So what, then, does Paul mean in 1 Timothy 4:16? He can't mean that Timothy can be his own Saviour, that his works contribute to the saving work of God through Christ. Fortunately, Paul clarifies what he means earlier in the chapter:

1 Timothy 4:6 (NKJV)
6 If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.

1 Timothy 4:12-13 (NKJV)
12 Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
13 Till I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

1 Timothy 4:15 (NKJV)
15 Meditate on these things; give yourself entirely to them, that your progress may be evident to all.

Paul is evidently concerned that Timothy set a good example for other believers to follow. And he tells Timothy that by careful attention to doctrine, nourishing himself constantly on the "words of faith and "good doctrine," and in conduct demonstrating love, faith and purity, he may do so. Verse 16 reiterates and emphasizes the importance of correct doctrine to right Christian living, reminding Timothy that in the truths of such doctrines there is salvation and so, in continuing in them, there is salvation for Timothy and for those to whom he teaches "the words of faith." Paul's intent in verse 16 is to further stress the saving power of the truths of the doctrines he is urging Timothy to "give attention to"; for as Paul has explained in his letter to the Romans, in those truths, those doctrines of the faith, there is the "power of God unto salvation." (Romans 1:16)
Paul's intention, then, isn't to teach that Timothy may save himself by his good works (or to threaten him with the loss of salvation) but to remind Timothy that in the Gospel, in the core doctrines of the faith, there is saving power. This is why Paul wrote that in them, not by them, Timothy would be saved. This reading of verse 16 avoids both contradiction and eisegesis which your view, it appears to me, employs.

setst777 said:
2 Timothy 4:7-8
7 I have fought the good fight. I have finished the course. I have kept the faith. 8 From now on, there is stored up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give to me on that day; and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved his appearing.

This passage says nothing at all about being saved and then lost. It speaks of the reward that Paul expected as a consequence of having "fought the good fight" and having "kept the faith." But the "crown of righteousness" is not synonymous with salvation itself. Jesus is salvation (1 John 5:11-13); he is not a crown of reward, however. Any, then, who do not receive a crown are not those who also lose their salvation. Such an idea must be forced into this passage, not drawn out of it.

setst777 said:
Revelation 2:10-11 (WEB) 10 Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death.

Revelation 2:10-11 (NKJV)
10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." '

In light of the express denial of Scripture that works have any part to play in whether or not a person is - or remains - saved, these verses cannot be teaching a saved-and-lost doctrine. Who are those who "overcome"? Those who are genuinely born-again people (1 John 4:4). Through the apostle John, the Spirit says to them that they need not fear physical death because the "crown of life" and freedom from the second death are the birthright of the truly born-again person (John 3:16; John 10:10; John 14:6; John 20:31, etc). This passage is not, then, a threat but a promise and confirmation of what the "overcomer," or born-again believer, possesses in Christ: the power to overcome, eternal life, and protection from the second death. Such truth would be very important for those believers who were about to be thrown into prison and executed.

setst777 said:
Revelation 2:4-7 (WEB) 4 But I have this against you, that you left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I am coming to you swiftly, and will move your lamp stand out of its place, unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of my God.

Remember that the Spirit, through John, is speaking to a corporate entity - not a particular individual - the church at Ephesus. What does it mean for the "lampstand" of the church to be removed? Does it mean all the believers constituting the church would lose their salvation? No. It means only that the witness of the church for Christ (Matthew 5:14-16) would be lost.

The apostle John wrote that an "overcomer" is one in whom God dwells and who, as a result, "overcomes" those in and of the world.

1 John 4:4 (NKJV)
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

John points out here that an overcomer is an overcomer because of who dwells within them, namely God, not because of what they do. Their ability to overcome those in and of the world is the direct consequence of being indwelt by God, by the Holy Spirit. In other words, their born-again condition produces an overcoming life; it is not the means of their born-again condition.

setst777 said:
God places the responsibility on each person to strive hard to enter the narrow door to be saved...

Luke 13:22-24 (WEB) Bolding mine … The Narrow Door
22 He went on his way through cities and villages, teaching, and traveling on to Jerusalem. 23 One said to him, “Lord, are they few who are saved?”
He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in, and will not be able

This passage, however, does not teach a saved-and-lost doctrine. Nor can it be teaching works-salvation for reasons I have already explained. The writer of Hebrews described a labour of faith that enters into the rest of salvation (Hebrews 4:1-3) Is this labour a good work? It cannot be, if Paul wrote the truth about salvation not being by works. (see above). In context, the labour of faith the writer of Hebrews mentions is the effort of trusting, of being able to place one's full confidence in God, as the Israelites failed to do in Numbers 13 & 14. This is not considered a good work in Scripture, however, as, say, giving alms to the poor, or avoiding sexual sin would be. So, "striving to enter in by the narrow door" is not a call to earn one's salvation by meritorious deeds, but is speaking of the labour of faith, I believe, of which the writer of Hebrews wrote.

setst777 said:
Revelation 3:2-5 … 2 Wake up, and keep the things that remain, which are about to die, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If therefore you do not wake up, I will come as a thief, and you won't know what hour I will come to you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:2-6 (NKJV)
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." '

Again, the Spirit is initially speaking to the corporate entity that was the church at Sardis, not to any particular individual. Starting at verse 4, though, the focus shifts from the church corporately to a "few names" who are overcomers, or truly born-again believers (evidenced in their overcoming character of living). To them, verse 5 is not a threat but a wonderful promise. The Spirit promises that God will not ever blot their names from the Book of Life. I don't see, then, that this passage does anything to help secure a saved-and-lost or works-salvation doctrine. Quite the opposite, actually.

aiki · May 9, 2019

setst777 said:
Hebrews 6:4-6 (WEB)
4 For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.

The persons described here are those who repented and partook of the Holy Spirit. Only those who believe receive the Holy Spirit.

Nope. "Tasted" does not indicate a full experience of the "heavenly gift." "Partakers" means "partner with" and many "tares" do this as they participate in the Spirit-empowered life and work of the Church. They don't "partake of," or partner with, the Spirit in the full, direct way a genuinely born-again person does, but this is what one would expect of those who have only "tasted of the heavenly gift." That false converts are in view here is further confirmed by the fact that they fall away from the truth of the Gospel (but not actual salvation since they never had it to begin with) which they would have encountered in the Church and may even had believed they had embraced.

setst777 said:
Galatians 3 (WEB) Bolding mine… 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,”[a] 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

This is describing someone who was saved.

Verse 5 states that these persons fell away.

Fell away from what?

Verse 5 continues that such who fall away and then try to repent are like making Jesus be crucified all over again. So, before falling away, the crucifixion of Jesus was sufficient for their initial repentance.

Again, nope. The immediate context of Galatians 5:5 denies the construction you're trying to put upon it here:

Galatians 5:1-4 (NKJV)
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Paul is writing here of the liberty from the strictures of the OT law under which the Galatian believers had once laboured and under which the Judaizers wanted to place them again. By the grace of God expressed to them in Christ, the Galatian believers were made free from the binding "yoke" of the law, Paul wrote. But to return to law-observance, as the Judaizers wanted, would be to forsake this wonderful grace, to leave it and the freedom it obtained for the Galatian Christians. It is, then, not from salvation the Galatians would fall if they returned to the OT law of the Judaizers, but from the liberty from the yoke of the OT law that God in grace had extended to them in Christ. So, again, this is a passage that does nothing to establish a saved-and-lost, or works-salvation doctrine.

setst777 said:
Romans 8 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

In context, Paul is contrasting two kinds of living: by the flesh or by the Spirit. It is evident in what Paul wrote that one who lives in the flesh is not a saved person, as one who lives in the Spirit is. Paul makes this very clear in Romans 8:8-9:

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Verse 13, then, is simply summarizing (and contrasting) the consequences of living as a lost or a saved person. A lost, fleshly person dies and a saved, Spirit-regenerated person lives. I don't see any SAL doctrine here, only a warning not to be deceived about one's true condition.

setst777 said:
Galatians 5 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

I don't see any SAL teaching here...Where's the threat of salvation lost?

setst777 said:
8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap Eternal Life.

Again, no mention of salvation lost, only a contrast between the fleshly living of the lost and the Spirit-centered living of the saved.

setst777 said:
You can be saved by faith, but be severed from Christ if you do not stand firm in the faith - the possibility of losing ones salvation is very real, that is why we must fear God...

Romans 11 (WEB) Bolding mine… 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 They also, if they don’t continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

This passage speaks to the arrogance of the Gentiles toward the Jews, urging them to remain humble about their God-adopted status in light of the fact that God has the power to cut-off the Gentile nations just He has cut off the Israelite nation.

Who continues in God's goodness but the genuinely saved who truly know and love Him? The warning in this passage is akin to saying, "If a fish leaves the water it will surely die." But fish, being fish, don't normally leave the water. It is not in their nature to do so (generally speaking). So, too, genuine born-again believers. They will die if they cease to continue in the goodness of God but born-again believers being what they are don't normally forsake God's goodness. It isn't in their new nature (2 Corinthians 5:17) to do so. What's more, they have the promise of God that the saving work He began in them He will bring to full completion (Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24)

If I have time, I will finish my reply to you later.

setst777 · May 9, 2019

aiki said:
This is works-salvation which the Bible flatly, and explicitly, and repeatedly denies.

Aiki writes:
<<
This is works-salvation which the Bible flatly, and explicitly, and repeatedly denies.
>>

setst RE:
No, it is faith-salvation, which the Bible flatly, and explicitly, promotes. Faith for salvation is not a work according to Scripture.

God's saving grace is His gift to those who believe according to all the Scriptures.

Aiki writes:
<<
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
>>

setst RE: The Passage you quoted flatly declares we receive God's grace through faith. And this grace is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

That's is exactly what I am showing you from Scripture.

Scripture repeatedly teaches that “Gift” refers to God’s saving grace – God graciously accrediting righteousness to those who believe in Jesus at the hearing of the Gospel.

This “Gift” of grace is righteousness and salvation, and is only receive by faith.

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV) Bolding mine… 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 4:4-5 (just quoted) teaches that we receive God’s Gift (being accredited righteousness) by Faith. See also: Romans 5:17 - Faith itself is not the gift.

The “Gift of God” is God graciously imputing His righteousness to those who believe in Jesus.

Romans 3:22-24
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

We receive God's grace and justification by faith:

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB)
5 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

The “gift of God” refers to our salvation in Christ. We only receive God’s gracious gift of eternal life though faith in Christ Jesus according to every Scripture in the Bible, in context.

Is Faith a Work?
Not according to Scripture.

Romans 3:27-28 (WEB) Bolding mine… 27 Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 We maintain therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV) Bolding mine… 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

We are justified by faith, not before faith

Galatians 2:15-16 (WEB) Bolding mine… 15 We, being Jews by nature, and not Gentile sinners, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

So we gain access to the gift of saving grace, righteousness, not by works, but by faith in Christ Jesus - Romans 5:1-2.

Aiki writes:
<<
2 Timothy 1:9 (NKJV)
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
>>

Aiki, you quote Passages that were written to Christians who are already saved by faith in Jesus.

I agree with the Passage you quoted.

Now, to find out How the Christians he is writing to were called, or How they were saved, we must look at the context of Scripture

How were we called? Answer: By the Gospel

2 Timothy 1:9-10 (WEB) In Context
9 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before times eternal, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel.

How do we receive God's grace and justification?
Answer: Not by works but by faith:

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB)
5 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

God's Plan
This is all by the plan of God. God had already intended to bring salvation to the world by means of the Gospel from eternity past through the redemption that Christ Jesus would pay for. We only access that grace by an obedient faith. That is God's plan according to Scripture.

Faith is not part of salvation; rather, we receive Eternal Salvation by an obedient faith:

Hebrews 5
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Aiki writes:
<<
Titus 3:5-7 (NKJV)
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
>>

setst RE: I agree. You have to read the context of Scripture to find out:

HOW we receive Spiritual Regeneration - only by faith

Spiritual regeneration from spiritual death only occurs by the Spirit indwelling you:

Romans 8:8-10 (WEB)
8 Those who are in the flesh can’t please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

The Christian is “created in Christ” by the Spirit of Christ we receive by faith - Christ must be in you:

Ephesians 1 (NIV)
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine
38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.”
39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

Remember, that the Old Testament believers were not regenerated, because the Spirit had not been given yet until Pentecost. So the Old Testament believers were able to trust in God and overcame without being regenerated.

John 7:39 (just quoted above) But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

Therefore regeneration is not prerequisite to believe; rather, we believe so God will save us through regeneration of the indwelling Spirit.

While God works His regenerating power in those who believe in the New Testament, we who have the Spirit must live in obedience to the Spirit that lives in us to be eternally saved...

Romans 8 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6 (WEB) 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Galatians 5 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Therefore, the true believers live in obedience to the Spirit whom they receive by faith in Christ – these are the regenerate, the sanctified, the New Creation.

Now read the other verses you quoted in light of this Biblical revelation and you will not have to guess at what it all means.

BCsenior · May 9, 2019

aiki said:
Some also resort to Galatians 5:4. But this, too, does not have anything to do with the loss of salvation.

These Jewish Christians were trying to combine
faith in Christ with parts of the Law - Paul says:

"You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law;
you have fallen from grace ... For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircum-cision avails anything, but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:4-6)

setst777 · May 9, 2019

aiki said:
Nope. "Tasted" does not indicate a full experience of the "heavenly gift." "Partakers" means "partner with" and many "tares"

Hi Aiki

You quote and then write the following:
<<
Hebrews 6:4-6 (WEB)
4 For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.

The persons described here are those who repented and partook of the Holy Spirit. Only those who believe receive the Holy Spirit.

Aiki responds to the above as follows:
Nope. "Tasted" does not indicate a full experience of the "heavenly gift." "Partakers" means "partner with"
>>

setst RE:
Partakers of the Holy Spirit means they also shared in the Spirit not just partnered with.

For instance:
Hebrews 3:1 (WEB)
3 Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of a heavenly calling

These brothers are not just partnering with the heavenly calling; rather, they are sharing in that calling - they are actually included in it.

2 Peter 1:4 (WEB)
4 by which he has granted to us his precious and exceedingly great promises; that through these you may become partakers of the divine nature

We are not just partnering with the divine nature; rather, we share in it.

1 Corinthians 10:17 (WEB)
17 Because there is one loaf of bread, we, who are many, are one body; for we all partake of the one loaf of bread.

Notice they all partake of the one loaf of bread. They are not just partners with the bread; rather, they all share in eating it.

Likewise, there is only one Spirit, but Christians are partakers of the Spirit - they share in the Spirit as the body of Christ.

In summary, this Passage is talking about those who were saved, and then become lost.

Aiki quotes and writes:
<<
Galatians 5:1-4 (NKJV)
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

But to return to law-observance, as the Judaizers wanted, would be to forsake this wonderful grace, to leave it and the freedom it obtained for the Galatian Christians. It is, then, not from salvation the Galatians would fall if they returned to the OT law of the Judaizers, but from the liberty from the yoke of the OT law
>>

setst RE:
The Galatians were to "stand fast" in the liberty by which Christ has made us free

Notice "Christ has made us free" - speaking to Christians "us"

When Christ makes us free, that is referring to salvation.

Romans 6:22
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Notice Paul warns these believers do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Which means they had been set free from bondage by Christ but are endanger of losing their salvation by becoming bound again.

Aiki quotes and writes:
<<
Romans 8 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Verse 13, then, is simply summarizing (and contrasting) the consequences of living as a lost or a saved person.
>>

setst RE: Not at all. Paul states:

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation

The obligation of the "we" is for what Paul writes to them as a warning in the rest of that Passage, which includes not to live according to the flesh or they will die.

And the other part of that obligation is that they have must live by the Spirit to live

Aiki quotes and writes:
<<
Galatians 5 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

I don't see any SAL teaching here...Where's the threat of salvation lost?
>>

setst RE: Look at the beginning of verse 24 "Those who belong to Christ." Only those who are saved belong to Christ. Paul is specifically addressing those who belong to Christ. And we know they are saved because they have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts, but only IF they continue to live by the Spirit, walking in the Spirit.

Their continued salvation is, therefore, conditional on living and walking by the Spirit.

Aiki quotes and writes:
<<
Galatians 6:8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap Eternal Life.

Again, no mention of salvation lost, only a contrast between the fleshly living of the lost and the Spirit-centered living of the saved.
>>

setst RE:

Paul is addressing Christians in this whole Passage and sums up in verse 9 "Let us."

Paul starts out by telling the reader not to be deceived in verse 7.

Deceived from what? Paul explains, that a man reaps what you sows. "Reaping is not teaching about the Spirit indwelling them, because Paul's audience, the Christians, have the Spirit. Even so, we (Christians) must sow to or obey the Spirit to reap receive eternal life.

Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Paul then sums up by stating verse 9...

9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Notice that Paul in verse 9 is still addressing them as Christians, "Let us," and still using the word "reap" to summarize his warning telling them not to be weary in doing good so they reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Once again, reaping a harvest in verse 9 is understood in the context of verse 8 reaping to the Spirit to receive Eternal Life - reaping a harvest

Notice that the condition is that we must not give up in reaping to the Spirit...

"we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."

Aiki quotes and writes:
<<
Romans 11 (WEB) Bolding mine… 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 They also, if they don’t continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

This passage speaks to the arrogance of the Gentiles toward the Jews, urging them to remain humble about their God-adopted status in light of the fact that God has the power to cut-off the Gentile nations just He has cut off the Israelite nation.
>>

setst RE:
First of all, in all due respect, your whole point fails because God's election and calling of Israel is irrevocable just as Paul sums up in Romans 11:28-29

Romans 11:28-29
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

So Paul cannot be teaching that Israel can be broken off.

Secondly: this whole Passage is teaching about salvation:

Romans 11:11 Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

Romans 11:11 is the backdrop for the analogy of the Holy Root and the Branches.

Thirdly, in the very next verse, Paul states that the branches represent individuals...

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles (Plural) to make Israel envious.

Paul introduces the lesson about the Holy Root and the branches, by referring to Gentiles - not Gentile nations...

Fourthly, Paul summarizes his analogy of the Holy Root and the branches by again defining the branches grafted in as Gentiles (Plural) - not Gentile nations.

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in

Notice - not Gentile nations, but full number of Gentiles.

Only as Jews are Christians remain faithful do they remain in Elect Israel.

Fifthly, why would this Passage be referring to nations??? How many nations of Israel are there? Notice Paul states "Branches were broken off." If branch refers to nation, then why were branches (nations of Israel) broken off?

Sixthly: And why should I be lost, if the Gentile nation I live in is not faithful? I guess if that were true, I should be more than afraid, I should be terrified!

And if Paul is saying the Church or nations can be broken off, are you saying that a whole nation is broken off for the sins of sum in that nation. That is irrational.

So, in summary, Paul is warning us Gentiles who are grafted in by faith to remain faithful, and that we should be afraid, because we are responsible for remaining faithful or we will be cut off.

Ronald · May 9, 2019

I thought I was done ... a few more passages I left out. Btw, whatever scriptures you guys present are in harmony with the concept of God's gift of grace, salvation, faith, hope, love, peace, joy, and every good thing. Man is not capable of spiritual faith without the power of God, who draws him to Himself through the Word, opens His eyes. He gives them salvation, He died for it, it is a gift so that no one can boast. It does not require works. Just belief and that belief He enables us to possess. We take the gift and hold onto it, nourish it, read the Bible, prayer and even that is credited to Him. In Him we can do all things. Without Him, we can do nothing.
2 Pet 1:1
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
*We receive faith ... it must be given, if we receive it.

Acts 3:16 And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.
*Faith comes through Him

Phil. 1:29 For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
*It has been granted to believe - a gift.

Heb. 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Rom. 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
*Jesus is the AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH.

Rom. 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
*God allots (gives in proportions) to each a measure of faith.

Gal. 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
*He grows our faith as well after we receive it.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
*Again, all of salvation is given to us, every part of it. He enables us to believe. His sheep hear His voice. He draws us to His WORD, and faith comes by the WORD.

No verses in the Bible conflict with this premise. This does not remove our responsibility to care for the gifts we receive, especially our faith - we must persevere. But even our perseverance is empowered by God WHO LIVES IN US.

Kenny'sID · May 9, 2019

setst777 said:
Ronald writes:
<<
"No one can come to the Father unless He draws them".

setst777 said:
Ronald writes:
<<
"No one can come to the Father unless He draws them".
>>

setst RE:
Lord Jesus taught us that when he is lifted up he would draw all people to himself; yet, many will resist the drawing. But those who do not resist were drawn.

Agree. So many fail to see that doesn't mean they were drawn individually because they were special over others, or what ever reason they choose to think they were drawn. It's only to make the point we were drawn as opposed to coming if our own accord.

IOW, "Hey guys, you had nothing to do with coming to me on your own, you were all drawn by me, some of you chose to take advantage of the nudge, and some did not."

setst777 · May 10, 2019

Ronald said:
I thought I was done ...

Hi Ronald,

You write as follows:
<<
Man is not capable of spiritual faith without the power of God, who draws him to Himself through the Word
>>

setst RE: No one would disagree with that. Our salvation is made possible by the drawing work of the Spirit and the Word through the presentation of the Gospel. However, many will resist that drawing. Only those who do not resist will actually be drawn to Christ by the Word and the Spirit.

The Power of God onto Salvation is only received by faith:

Romans 1 (WEB) Bolding mine…
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, for it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes; for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.”

Who are the one’s shielded by God’s Power? –

Only those of faith.

1 Peter 1 (NIV)
4 This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Ronald writes:
<<
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

*We receive faith ... it must be given, if we receive it.
>>

setst RE:
Our faith is received by the preaching of the Gospel...

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Even so, many will resist the Gospel and remain lost. But those of us who are saved have received our faith from the preaching of the Gospel.

Ronald writes:
<<
Acts 3:16 And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.

*Faith comes through Him
>>

setst RE: The faith to heal is one of the gifts of the Spirit to those already saved. The faith to heal comes from Jesus, which Jesus promised to His disciples.

Ronald writes:
<<
Phil. 1:29 For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

*It has been granted to believe - a gift
>>

setst RE: Both believing and suffering are granted to us in the Passage you quoted (Phil 1:29)

How so? Notice the beginning word in Phi 1:29... "For." "For" means that verse 29 is a continuation of the thought expressed in the preceding verse 28.

Notice in verse 28 that the Philippians were being persecuted. Paul is reassuring the Philippians (who were suffering) that both their believing and their suffering are granted by God. So the Philippian Christians should not think they are suffering by God's hand as if cursed by God, but rather that, just as God grants them the right to believe, He also grants them the right to suffer for Him - not that God causes them to suffer, just as God does not cause us to believe.

Ronald writes:
<<
Heb. 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Rom. 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

*Jesus is the AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH.
>>

setst RE: Look at the Passage (Heb 12:2) again... Jesus is not the author of "OUR" faith; rather, Jesus is the author of faith.

"Hebrews 2:12" defines, in context, how Jesus is the author and perfecter of faith...

Heb. 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, ...

In other words, Jesus is our example whom we are to follow of the kind of faith we must have.

As for Rom 10:17... How do we receive faith? Answer: By the preaching of the Gospel (Rom 10:17)

Ronald writes:
<<
Rom. 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

*God allots (gives in proportions) to each a measure of faith.
>>

setst RE: "Hebrews 12:3-8" is specifically teaching about Spiritual Gifts in the body of Christ and the faith God distributes to each Christian to carry out the specific gift each one possesses within that body - for not all Christians share the same gifts of the Spirit.

For instance - read the context...

Hebrews 12:3-8
6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith...

Ronald writes:
<<
Gal. 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

*He grows our faith as well after we receive it.
>>

setst RE: We both agree. Remember that faith is received by hearing the Gospel, and that the faith to carry out the fruit of the Spirit is only possible by faithfully obeying the Spirit we receive by faith.

Galatians 5 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit

Ronald writes:
<<
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
*Again, all of salvation is given to us, every part of it. He enables us to believe. His sheep hear His voice. He draws us to His WORD, and faith comes by the WORD.
>>

setst RE:
I responded to this quote twice for you and you never replied back. A dialogue between people works both ways. We are saved by grace through faith. This grace is not of yourselves it is the gift of God.

We received God's gracious gift of salvation by faith.

Romans 5:1-2 (NIV)
5 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

Ronald · May 10, 2019

setst777 said:
However, many will resist that drawing. Only those who do not resist will actually be drawn to Christ by the Word and the Spirit.

Agree!

setst777 said:
The Power of God onto Salvation is only received by faith:

Romans 1 (WEB) Bolding mine…
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, for it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes

That is just another way of saying His Word transforms the believer. That's the point, the Word penetrates and opens up the person's eyes. It is God who lifts the veil of blindness to ENABLE US TO BELIEVE. MAN IS INCAPABLE OR CHOSING GOD WITHOUT GOD'S INTERVENTION.

setst777 said:
1 Peter 1 (NIV)
4 This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Faith is part of God's grace and power, since He is the Author of faith, our faith.

setst777 said:
Our faith is received by the preaching of the Gospel...

Which comes from those who are filled with the Spirit of God. Gospel comes from God. Its power comes from God, transformation comes from God and God sanctifies our spirit and grows our faith. It's all Him. We just cooperate after the fact.

setst777 said:
faith comes from hearing the message

God's message.

setst777 said:
The faith to heal is one of the gifts of the Spirit to those already saved. The faith to heal comes from Jesus, which Jesus promised to His disciples.

Oh, so I suppose He is the Author of that particular kind of faith, but not ours? He gives all these gifts.

setst777 said:
Both believing and suffering are granted to us in the Passage you quoted (Phil 1:29)

How so? Notice the beginning word in Phi 1:29... "For."

You dismantle and disconnect sentences and then twist them to conform or for purpose of denial. BELIEVING IS GRANTED, AND IT WAS DONE LONG BEFORE YOU WERE BORN!

setst777 said:
Paul is reassuring the Philippians (who were suffering) that both their believing and their suffering are granted by God.

That's right, believing is granted, given along with suffering.

setst777 said:
Jesus is the AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH.
>>

setst RE: Look at the Passage (Heb 12:2) again... Jesus is not the author of "OUR" faith; rather, Jesus is the author of faith

So what faith other than ours is God the Author of??? Angels, animals. Come on, STOP trying to twist and evade the meaning of what this verse says. HE IS THE AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH. You are in denial.
*If an author wrote a book about your faith, including all your experiences, with details that led to your faith in Christ and your entire journey; and in the last chapter of that book before death, you finally reached a mature strong faith, a fruitful life, before death; that would be a complete story of your faith. In GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF YOUR FAITH. He orchestrated all those events and people that came into your life in order that you would have life He grew your faith. Give him the credit, stop giving yourself credit, this leads to boasting, and a dishonor towards God.

>>>Apparently you are on a mission, an adamant quest to argue things like predestination, election. Is it the old Arminian vs. Calvinism banter????
Newsflash: I am not a Calvinist nor an Arminian, I am a Christian though who would argue both views.

setst777 said:
We received God's gracious gift of salvation by faith.

You seem so desperate to give MAN credit for his faith, as if God granted it to him based on man's willingness, desires, needs, intelligence, knowledge, or whatever. You are implying that in man's natural, fallen, sinful, blind state, that he processed God's message all by himself AND GOD SAW THIS FROM ABOVE AND THEN CHOSE HIM!
HE PREDESTINED US BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD -- BEFORE YOU WERE BORN. STOP TRYING TO SPLIT HAIRS AND TWIST VERSES TO SUPPORT YOUR VIEW.

setst777 · May 10, 2019

Ronald said:
Agree!
That is just another way of saying His Word transforms the believer.

Hi Ronald,

You quote me (setst777) in the following:
<<
However, many will resist that drawing. Only those who do not resist will actually be drawn to Christ by the Word and the Spirit.
>>

Ronald RE: Agree!

You quote me (setst777) in the following:
<<
The Power of God onto Salvation is only received by faith:

Romans 1 (WEB) Bolding mine…
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, for it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes
<<

Ronald RE:
That is just another way of saying His Word transforms the believer. That's the point, the Word penetrates and opens up the person's eyes. It is God who lifts the veil of blindness to ENABLE US TO BELIEVE. MAN IS INCAPABLE OR CHOSING GOD WITHOUT GOD'S INTERVENTION.

setst RE: You got it! There would be no faith without the atonement Christ provided us. The preaching of this Gospel along with the convicting work of the Spirit working with the Word is God's intervention. A person can either resist or accept the Gospel invitation. Whether a person resists or not is his choice, but those who humble themselves will listen and be receptive, while the proud and arrogant will resist the Word and Spirit.

You quote me (setst777) in the following:
<<
1 Peter 1 (NIV)
4 This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
>>

Ronald RE: Faith is part of God's grace and power, since He is the Author of faith, our faith.

setst RE: Ronald, you just quoted two Passages (above) that teach that we only access God's grace and power by faith. And no Scriptures exist that teach that faith is part of God's grace and power.

Christ is the author of the faith we are to follow to be saved - the example we are to follow as Hebrew makes clear in context.

Also:
John 10:27-28 (WEB)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them.

Matthew 10:38 (NIV)
38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

So you cannot quote a verse that uses the word Author (which also means Chief), as if it meant Jesus creates our faith, when Christ himself said we must put our faith in him to be saved, and that we only access God's grace and power by faith (quoted above).

You quote me (setst777) as follows:
<<
Our faith is received by the preaching of the Gospel...
>>

Ronald RE: Which comes from those who are filled with the Spirit of God.

setst RE: Are you saying we have to be filled with the Spirit of God in order to believe?

Only by an obedient faith does the Spirit indwell us...

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things,
and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or bybelieving what you heard?

How would you answer the above question?

Galatians 3:5 So again I ask,
does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

How would you answer the above question?

Galatians 3:14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promised Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And the new creation in Christ is only given by faith...

John 7:37-39 (NIV) Bolding mine
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Notice that the filling of the Spirit was not even given until after Christ was glorified. So believers in the Old Testament believed without having the Spirit.

You quote me (setst777) as follows:
<<
The faith to heal is one of the gifts of the Spirit to those already saved. The faith to heal comes from Jesus, which Jesus promised to His disciples.
>>

Ronald RE: Oh, so I suppose He is the Author of that particular kind of faith, but not ours? He gives all these gifts.

setst RE: Ronald, the faith described in that verse is the faith to heal, not the faith to save. Faith to heal is a gift of the Spirit to those already saved. The Apostles were saved when they healed others.

==========

Continued in next post...

setst777 · May 10, 2019

Ronald said:
Agree!
HE PREDESTINED US BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD -- BEFORE YOU WERE BORN. STOP TRYING TO SPLIT HAIRS AND TWIST VERSES TO SUPPORT YOUR VIEW.

Hi Ronald,

You quote what I (setst777) wrote as follows:
>>
Both believing and suffering are granted to us in the Passage you quoted (Phil 1:29)

How so? Notice the beginning word in Phi 1:29... "For." "For" means that verse 29 is a continuation of the thought expressed in the preceding verse 28.

Notice in verse 28 that the Philippians were being persecuted. Paul is reassuring the Philippians (who were suffering) that both their believing and their suffering are granted by God. So the Philippian Christians should not think they are suffering by God's hand as if cursed by God, but rather that, just as God grants them the right to believe, He also grants them the right to suffer for Him - not that God causes them to suffer, just as God does not cause us to believe.
>>

Ronald RE: You dismantle and disconnect sentences and then twist them to conform or for purpose of denial. BELIEVING IS GRANTED, AND IT WAS DONE LONG BEFORE YOU WERE BORN!

setst RE: No Ronald, you dismantled and disconnected the verse from its context to make it fit into your biased view. All I did was put your isolated quote back into its context to get the real meaning. If you have to disconnect a verse from its context to make it fit your view, then your faith is in yourself, not in what God actually taught in His word.

Ronald continues: "That's right, believing is granted, given along with suffering."

Granted and giving are two different words. I can grant your request to drive my car, but I am not giving you my car. In the same way, God grants the Jews and Gentiles the right to believe and Him and be saved, for God desires to have mercy on all - not just the Jews. For instance: Acts 11:1-18

Ronald writes: So what faith other than ours is God the Author of???

setst RE: Lord Jesus is the Author of the kind of faith we are to follow. We are to follow Jesus to be saved and live like Jesus lived. If you don't have the kind of faith that Jesus lived, then you cannot be saved.

1 John 2:5-6 (NIV)
5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

In this way, Jesus is the Author of faith - the faith we are to live by following His example.

You quote me (setst777) as follows:
<<
We received God's gracious gift of salvation by faith.
>>

Ronald RE: You seem so desperate to give MAN credit for his faith

setst RE: No, God is desperate to give man credit for his faith.

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV) Bolding mine… 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

God himself credits righteousness to those who believe - even before the Spirit was given.

Genesis 15:6 (NIV)
6 Abram believed the Lord, and He credited it to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:11 So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

Romans 4:23-24 (NIV)
23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB)
5 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Ronald writes:
<<
HE PREDESTINED US BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD -- BEFORE YOU WERE BORN. STOP TRYING TO SPLIT HAIRS AND TWIST VERSES TO SUPPORT YOUR VIEW.
>>

setst RE: God predestined those whom God foreknew (those who would believe at the hearing of the Gospel - Rom 10:17) to be conformed to the image of His son. Those God predestined, He called (by the Gospel invitation and the convicting work of the Spirit). Those who are called by the Gospel, (if they do not resist, but believe as Scripture states), then He justifies (we are justified by faith according to the Scriptures - Rom 5:1-2). Those he justifies He also glorifies - salvation.

Romans 8 (WEB) 28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 Whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB)
5 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

aiki · May 10, 2019

setst777 said:
No, it is faith-salvation, which the Bible flatly, and explicitly, promotes. Faith for salvation is not a work according to Scripture.

God's saving grace is His gift to those who believe according to all the Scriptures.

To say, as you have, that the retention of your salvation is a product of your effort, of your ability to perform good works, is to say that your works save you. It is a contradiction to say, on one hand, that a person is saved by grace through faith in Christ and then on the other to say that a person must do good deeds in order to maintain that salvation. This is like a man who has drowned but has been rescued and revived being told by his rescuer that he will be thrown back into the water to make it to shore by his own efforts. Has the drowned man really been rescued? No. At best, he has been given a brief reprieve from drowning. Once he is returned to the water, he must save himself or die. As far as I can see, this is essentially what is going on with the saved-and-lost, works-salvation doctrines which you appear to espouse.

setst777 said:
setst RE: The Passage you quoted flatly declares we receive God's grace through faith. And this grace is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

That's is exactly what I am showing you from Scripture.

No, it's not. See above.

setst777 said:
Faith is not part of salvation; rather, we receive Eternal Salvation by an obedient faith:

As I've already pointed out in this thread, our salvation is in a Person: Jesus Christ. (1 John 5:11-13)

setst777 said:
Therefore regeneration is not prerequisite to believe; rather, we believe so God will save us through regeneration of the indwelling Spirit.

??? I don't hold to a Calvinistic ordo salutis.

setst777 said:
While God works His regenerating power in those who believe in the New Testament, we who have the Spirit must live in obedience to the Spirit that lives in us to be eternally saved...

And here you undo all that you've taken pains to explain about salvation by faith. You have made the believer's effort, their obedience which is, essentially, good works, the basis upon which they are eternally saved. That you can't seem to see this quite astonishes me! You just can't have it both ways without contradicting yourself. Either a person is saved by grace through faith in Christ totally apart from works, or, as you say above, they are saved by dint of their ability to "live in obedience to the Spirit." To assert that both are true is a clear contradiction.

setst777 said:
Therefore, the true believers live in obedience to the Spirit whom they receive by faith in Christ – these are the regenerate, the sanctified, the New Creation.

Now read the other verses you quoted in light of this Biblical revelation and you will not have to guess at what it all means.

"Biblical revelation"? I think not. False doctrine is more like it.

You seem to be concluding that because good works are the inevitable consequence of salvation that they are therefore necessary to salvation. But a thing that is inevitable is not always also necessary. It is inevitable that, when the whiskers on my face grow out, I will shave them off; but it is not necessary that I do so. I could grow out a beard if I wished. It is inevitable that when I fall asleep I snore; but it is not, therefore necessary that I snore when I sleep. I could use a device that prevented snoring while I sleep and still sleep perfectly well. So, too, with salvation and good works. If I'm saved, the Bible makes it clear that good works will manifest inevitably in my life. But the inevitability of those good works doesn't make them necessary to my being saved.

setst777 said:
The persons described here are those who repented and partook of the Holy Spirit. Only those who believe receive the Holy Spirit.

As I pointed out to you, "partake" carries the idea of partnership which "tares" in the Church do all the time as they participate in the Spirit-empowered life and ministries of the Church. And "tasted" is not suggestive of a full experience of a thing. So, no, it is by no means certain that the people described in the passage in question were truly born-again. I gave you other reasons as well for why this is so but you have not defeated those reasons either, but merely re-asserted your point of view.

setst777 said:
Hebrews 3:1 (WEB)
3 Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of a heavenly calling

These brothers are not just partnering with the heavenly calling; rather, they are sharing in that calling - they are actually included in it.

2 Peter 1:4 (WEB)
4 by which he has granted to us his precious and exceedingly great promises; that through these you may become partakers of the divine nature

We are not just partnering with the divine nature; rather, we share in it.

I did not make my case for how I read the passage in Hebrews 6 solely on the basis of this one word. I think, in context, "partaker" does not carry the same meaning as it does in these verses you've cited here. The "partakers" in Hebrews 6:4 only "tasted of the heavenly gift," that is, they had only a partial, superficial experience of the "gift," and so, not surprisingly, they "fall away" from the false faith that they possessed.

setst777 said:
In summary, this Passage is talking about those who were saved, and then become lost.

I disagree. See above.

setst777 said:
When Christ makes us free, that is referring to salvation.

In this case, Paul is very clear what it is, precisely, that the Galatian believers were free from: bondage to the OT law which he refers to in verses 1, 3, and 4. So salvation is not in view here. Law-observance is.

setst777 said:
Notice Paul warns these believers do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Which means they had been set free from bondage by Christ but are endanger of losing their salvation by becoming bound again.

This is not what he wrote, however. You're imposing a saved-and-lost construction upon his words. He speaks only of the bondage to the law and the freedom from that bondage found in God's grace.

setst777 said:
setst RE: Not at all. Paul states:

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation

The obligation of the "we" is for what Paul writes to them as a warning in the rest of that Passage, which includes not to live according to the flesh or they will die.

And the other part of that obligation is that they have must live by the Spirit to live

None of this actually addresses the points I made about Romans 8. Please re-read my post.

setst777 said:
setst RE: Look at the beginning of verse 24 "Those who belong to Christ." Only those who are saved belong to Christ. Paul is specifically addressing those who belong to Christ. And we know they are saved because they have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts, but only IF they continue to live by the Spirit, walking in the Spirit.

??? Oh, what a tangled web we weave...

Galatians 5:24-25 (NKJV)
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Paul is describing the condition of the born-again believer in verse 24: they have, as he described of himself in Galatians 2:20, been crucified with Christ and thus the flesh and its passions and desires have been crucified (which Paul explains exhaustively in Romans 6:1-18). This is the spiritual position of every genuinely born-again believer in Christ. In verse 25, though, Paul does not qualify his words as you are attempting to do. He does not write that if they continue in the Spirit, they are saved. No, he says only that if one lives in the Spirit, then one ought also to walk in Him. Paul doesn't make one's salvation contingent upon doing so, however. Instead, he implies that there are two states in which one can exist as a believer: Living in the Spirit and walking in the Spirit. The former is a passive state, the latter, active; the former, though, gives rise to the latter. I see no way in which a saved-and-lost doctrine can be reasonably extracted from these facts. You must do as you have done and force a saved-and-lost construction upon Paul's words.

setst777 said:
Even so, we (Christians) must sow to or obey the Spirit to reap receive eternal life.

But Paul says nothing like this in Galatians 6:7-8. You're adding to his words here. Again.

setst777 said:
Notice that Paul in verse 9 is still addressing them as Christians, "Let us," and still using the word "reap" to summarize his warning telling them not to be weary in doing good so they reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Once again, reaping a harvest in verse 9 is understood in the context of verse 8 reaping to the Spirit to receive Eternal Life - reaping a harvest

Galatians 6:7-10 (NKJV)
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

I included verse 10 because it is the actual conclusion of Paul's thoughts in the above section from chapter 6, signaled by his use of the word "therefore." Verse 10 reveals that, in verse 9, Paul changed his thought from "sowing to the Spirit" unto salvation to "doing good," which is another kind of sowing in which a believer ought to engage that is unto the believer's fellow man, not the Spirit, and "especially to those who are of the household of faith." Verse 9 is not completing the thought of verse 8 but shifting entirely to another kind of sowing that is not toward God but toward other people. Salvation, then, is not in view in verse 9. This is evident in the fact that in verses 9 and 10, Paul urges "doing good" especially to those who are already of the "household of faith," that is, who are saved. In light of this, it makes no sense to say that the reaping mentioned in verse 9 is of the salvific kind mentioned in verse 8.

setst777 said:
setst RE:
First of all, in all due respect, your whole point fails because God's election and calling of Israel is irrevocable just as Paul sums up in Romans 11:28-29

I was not making a point but merely describing what Paul himself says in the passage!

Romans 11:19-22 (NKJV)
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they (Israel) were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches (Israel), He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off (as Israel was).

setst777 said:
So Paul cannot be teaching that Israel can be broken off.

The cutting off doesn't have to be permanent which is what Paul acknowledges in verses 26-29. I would draw your attention to verse 28, however, where Paul, speaking of Israel wrote,

Romans 11:28 (NKJV)
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

setst777 said:
Romans 11:28-29
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

So Paul cannot be teaching that Israel can be broken off.

Secondly: this whole Passage is teaching about salvation:

Romans 11:11 Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

Romans 11:11 is the backdrop for the analogy of the Holy Root and the Branches.

Thirdly, in the very next verse, Paul states that the branches represent individuals...

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles (Plural) to make Israel envious.

Paul introduces the lesson about the Holy Root and the branches, by referring to Gentiles - not Gentile nations...

Fourthly, Paul summarizes his analogy of the Holy Root and the branches by again defining the branches grafted in as Gentiles (Plural) - not Gentile nations.

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in

Notice - not Gentile nations, but full number of Gentiles.

Only as Jews are Christians remain faithful do they remain in Elect Israel.

Fifthly, why would this Passage be referring to nations??? How many nations of Israel are there? Notice Paul states "Branches were broken off." If branch refers to nation, then why were branches (nations of Israel) broken off?

Sixthly: And why should I be lost, if the Gentile nation I live in is not faithful? I guess if that were true, I should be more than afraid, I should be terrified!

And if Paul is saying the Church or nations can be broken off, are you saying that a whole nation is broken off for the sins of sum in that nation. That is irrational.

So, in summary, Paul is warning us Gentiles who are grafted in by faith to remain faithful, and that we should be afraid, because we are responsible for remaining faithful or we will be cut off.

None of this really deals with my points. Your comments here certainly don't defeat my points, so far as I can see.

setst777 · May 11, 2019

aiki said:
To say, as you have, that the retention of your salvation is a product of your effort, of your ability to perform good works, is to say that your works save you.

Hi Aiki

Aiki quotes me (setst777) as follows:
<<
No, it is faith-salvation, which the Bible flatly, and explicitly, promotes. Faith for salvation is not a work according to Scripture.

God's saving grace is His gift to those who believe according to all the Scriptures.
>>

Aiki RE: To say, as you have, that the retention of your salvation is a product of your effort, of your ability to perform good works, is to say that your works save you.

setst RE: You saw the Scriptures; I quoted them.

God states that faith is the opposite of works (Romans 3:27-28; Romans 4:4-5; Romans 9:30-33, Galatians 2:15-16)

Faith leads to obedience (John 10:27-28; John 12:25-26; Romans 16:25-27; Hebrews 5:8, etc).

And God accredits righteousness to those who believe (Romans 4:4-5; Romans 4:11, etc).

If you disagree with God's plan, then you have to take that up with God, not me. Good luck.

Aiki quotes me (setst777) as follows:
<<
The Passage you quoted flatly declares we receive God's grace through faith. And this grace is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

That's is exactly what I am showing you from Scripture.
>>

Aiki RE: No, it's not. See above.

setst RE: See above what? I have provided the Scriptures to you that show faith is not a work, and that we are justified by faith, and we gain access to God's grace by faith (Rom 5:1-2). That is God's Word.

Aiki quotes me (setst777) as follows:
<<
Faith is not part of salvation; rather, we receive Eternal Salvation by an obedient faith:
>>

Aiki RE:
As I've already pointed out in this thread, our salvation is in a Person: Jesus Christ. (1 John 5:11-13)

setst RE: As I pointed out on this thread we are to believe in Jesus to receive eternal life (John 3:16).

If we truly believe in Jesus, as the Scriptures say, then we are to listen to and follow Jesus to receive eternal life (John 10:27-28).

And those that say you don't have to obey Jesus, and say you don't have to live as Jesus lived, to be saved are liars according to Scripture: 1 John 2:4-6.

Aiki quotes me as follows:
<<
While God works His regenerating power in those who believe in the New Testament, we who have the Spirit must live in obedience to the Spirit that lives in us to be eternally saved...
>>

Aiki RE: And here you undo all that you've taken pains to explain about salvation by faith. You have made the believer's effort, their obedience which is, essentially, good works, the basis upon which they are eternally saved. That you can't seem to see this quite astonishes me! You just can't have it both ways without contradicting yourself. Either a person is saved by grace through faith in Christ totally apart from works, or, as you say above, they are saved by dint of their ability to "live in obedience to the Spirit." To assert that both are true is a clear contradiction.

setst RE: Its not that I believe in works for salvation as if works could justify us, but what you are not understanding from Scripture is that a true faith in Jesus means you have given your life to him - 'deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Him.' When Jesus has you, then everything you do is for Him, because you are now a follower of Jesus - His disciple. You can only have one Master.

And isn't that what the Great Commission is all about that Christ Jesus commanded of us:

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

Aiki quotes me (setst777):
<<
The persons described here are those who repented and partook of the Holy Spirit. Only those who believe receive the Holy Spirit.
>>

Aiki RE: As I pointed out to you, "partake" carries the idea of partnership which "tares" in the Church do all the time as they participate in the Spirit-empowered life and ministries of the Church. And "tasted" is not suggestive of a full experience of a thing.

setst RE: As I pointed out to you by several Scriptures, that partake means one is sharing in the experience, not just partnering with those that have it. You disagree. Your disagreement is invalid based on the testimony of Scripture.

As for tasting. I am thinking you do not believe Jesus actually died for all of us. Don't you believe in the Gospel?

Hebrews 2:9 (NIV)
9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Are you saying Jesus did not fully experience death for us? In the same way, we also partake of the Spirit, NOT partner with the Spirit.

Therefore, they were saved, but were endanger of losing their salvation.

Aiki quotes in what I wrote in the following:
<<
The Galatians were to "stand fast" in the liberty by which Christ has made us free

Notice "Christ has made us free" - speaking to Christians "us"

When Christ makes us free, that is referring to salvation.

Romans 6:22
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Notice Paul warns these believers do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage, which means they had been set free from bondage by Christ but are endanger of losing their salvation by becoming bound again.
>>

Aiki RE: In this case, Paul is very clear what it is, precisely, that the Galatian believers were free from: bondage to the OT law which he refers to in verses 1, 3, and 4. So salvation is not in view here. Law-observance is.

setst RE: Are you saying that the Galatians are still saved, even though they are rejecting the Gospel in favor of adherence to the Law?

How could you even think that?...

Galatians 1:8-9 (NIV) (Paul said this to the Galatians because of their bondage to the law again)
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Seems pretty clear to me that their salvation is on the line.

Aiki quotes me (setst777) as follows:
<<
setst RE: Look at the beginning of verse 24"Those who belong to Christ." Only those who are saved belong to Christ. Paul is specifically addressing those who belong to Christ. And we know they are saved because they have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts, but only IF they continue to live by the Spirit, walking in the Spirit.
>>

Aiki writes: ??? Oh, what a tangled web we weave...

Galatians 5:24-25 (NKJV)
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Paul is describing the condition of the born-again believer in verse 24: they have, as he described of himself in Galatians 2:20, been crucified with Christ and thus the flesh and its passions and desires have been crucified (which Paul explains exhaustively in Romans 6:1-18). This is the spiritual position of every genuinely born-again believer in Christ. In verse 25, though, Paul does not qualify his words as you are attempting to do. He does not write that if they continue in the Spirit, they are saved. No, he says only that if one lives in the Spirit, then one ought also to walk in Him. Paul doesn't make one's salvation contingent upon doing so, however. Instead, he implies that there are two states in which one can exist as a believer: Living in the Spirit and walking in the Spirit. The former is a passive state, the latter, active; the former, though, gives rise to the latter. I see no way in which a saved-and-lost doctrine can be reasonably extracted from these facts. You must do as you have done and force a saved-and-lost construction upon Paul's words.

setst RE: You have to look at the context to get the meaning. In other words, read the surrounding verses to understand what Paul is conveying. When you read the context you will see that Paul is conveying that since Christians are suppose to live by the Spirit, then they better prove it by actually walking in line with the Spirit instead of being conceited, and provoking and conveying each other...

Galatians 1:15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

So, you see that if they claim to live in the Spirit, then they better walk in the Spirit or else they will not inherit the kingdom of God - just as Paul warned them before and now again.

setst777 · May 11, 2019

aiki said:
To say, as you have, that the retention of your salvation is a product of your effort, of your ability to perform good works, is to say that your works save you.

Aiki quotes in part what I wrote as follows:
<<
Paul is addressing Christians in this whole Passage and sums up in verse 9 "Let us."

Paul starts out by telling the reader not to be deceived in verse 7.

Deceived from what? Paul explains, that a man reaps what you sows. "Reaping is not teaching about the Spirit indwelling them, because Paul's audience, the Christians, have the Spirit. Even so, we (Christians) must sow to or obey the Spirit to reap receive eternal life.

Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Paul then sums up by stating verse 9...

9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Notice that Paul in verse 9 is still addressing them as Christians, "Let us," and still using the word "reap" to summarize his warning telling them not to be weary in doing good so they reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Once again, to “reap a harvest” in verse 9 is understood in the context of verse 8 reaping to the Spirit to receive Eternal Life - reaping a harvest

Notice that the condition is that we must not give up in sowing to the Spirit...

By so doing, "we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."
>>

Aiki RE:
<<
But Paul says nothing like this in Galatians 6:7-8. You're adding to his words here. Again.

Galatians 6:7-10 (NKJV)
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

I included verse 10 because it is the actual conclusion of Paul's thoughts in the above section from chapter 6, signaled by his use of the word "therefore." Verse 10 reveals that, in verse 9, Paul changed his thought from "sowing to the Spirit" unto salvation to "doing good," which is another kind of sowing in which a believer ought to engage that is unto the believer's fellow man, not the Spirit, and "especially to those who are of the household of faith." Verse 9 is not completing the thought of verse 8 but shifting entirely to another kind of sowing that is not toward God but toward other people. Salvation, then, is not in view in verse 9. This is evident in the fact that in verses 9 and 10, Paul urges "doing good" especially to those who are already of the "household of faith," that is, who are saved. In light of this, it makes no sense to say that the reaping mentioned in verse 9 is of the salvific kind mentioned in verse 8.
>>

setst RE: "therefore" is not a change in thought, but is a connector - a conclusion or summary of what he wrote in the previous verses, which is exactly what he did in verse 10. Almost anyone who speaks English knows this, so I will not dwell on explaining to you.

In verse 10, doing good is sowing to the Spirit. All good things we do as Christians are the result of sowing to the Spirit. Did you know that? Those are the fruits of the Spirit.

Notice that in verse 10, after Paul warned in the preceding Passages that they must not sow to the flesh, but to the Spirit to receive eternal life, he then concludes by saying, v10 "Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith."

So if they want eternal life, they must sow to the Spirit, doing good to all. Then they will reap a harvest - eternal life. The must not give up doing this.

Aiki writes in regards to Romans 11:
<<
The cutting off doesn't have to be permanent which is what Paul acknowledges in verses 26-29. I would draw your attention to verse 28, however, where Paul, speaking of Israel wrote,
>>

setst RE:
No cutting off of nations is mentioned in Romans 11 as you stated,

rather, Paul clearly mentions Gentiles (Plural) and Jews (Plural). Since Gentiles and Jews are in view, we see that Paul tells us to be afraid, because, just as God cuts off the natural branches (plural) (Jews, not Jewish nations), that the same will happen to the gentiles who were grafted in if they don't continue in the faith.

Romans 11:
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved.

Nothing about nations - except for Israel, which faithful Jews and Gentiles are members of - Gentiles being grafted in among the Jews.

Ronald · May 11, 2019

setst777 said:
Hi Ronald,

You quote me (setst777) in the following:
<<
However, many will resist that drawing. Only those who do not resist will actually be drawn to Christ by the Word and the Spirit.
>>

Ronald RE: Agree!

You quote me (setst777) in the following:
<<
The Power of God onto Salvation is only received by faith:

Romans 1 (WEB) Bolding mine…
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, for it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes
<<

Ronald RE:
That is just another way of saying His Word transforms the believer. That's the point, the Word penetrates and opens up the person's eyes. It is God who lifts the veil of blindness to ENABLE US TO BELIEVE. MAN IS INCAPABLE OR CHOSING GOD WITHOUT GOD'S INTERVENTION.

setst RE: You got it! There would be no faith without the atonement Christ provided us. The preaching of this Gospel along with the convicting work of the Spirit working with the Word is God's intervention. A person can either resist or accept the Gospel invitation. Whether a person resists or not is his choice, but those who humble themselves will listen and be receptive, while the proud and arrogant will resist the Word and Spirit.

You quote me (setst777) in the following:
<<
1 Peter 1 (NIV)
4 This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
>>

Ronald RE: Faith is part of God's grace and power, since He is the Author of faith, our faith.

setst RE: Ronald, you just quoted two Passages (above) that teach that we only access God's grace and power by faith. And no Scriptures exist that teach that faith is part of God's grace and power.

Christ is the author of the faith we are to follow to be saved - the example we are to follow as Hebrew makes clear in context.

Also:
John 10:27-28 (WEB)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them.

Matthew 10:38 (NIV)
38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

So you cannot quote a verse that uses the word Author (which also means Chief), as if it meant Jesus creates our faith, when Christ himself said we must put our faith in him to be saved, and that we only access God's grace and power by faith (quoted above).

You quote me (setst777) as follows:
<<
Our faith is received by the preaching of the Gospel...
>>

Ronald RE: Which comes from those who are filled with the Spirit of God.

setst RE: Are you saying we have to be filled with the Spirit of God in order to believe?

Only by an obedient faith does the Spirit indwell us...

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things,
and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or bybelieving what you heard?

How would you answer the above question?

Galatians 3:5 So again I ask,
does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

How would you answer the above question?

Galatians 3:14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promised Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And the new creation in Christ is only given by faith...

John 7:37-39 (NIV) Bolding mine
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Notice that the filling of the Spirit was not even given until after Christ was glorified. So believers in the Old Testament believed without having the Spirit.

You quote me (setst777) as follows:
<<
The faith to heal is one of the gifts of the Spirit to those already saved. The faith to heal comes from Jesus, which Jesus promised to His disciples.
>>

Ronald RE: Oh, so I suppose He is the Author of that particular kind of faith, but not ours? He gives all these gifts.

setst RE: Ronald, the faith described in that verse is the faith to heal, not the faith to save. Faith to heal is a gift of the Spirit to those already saved. The Apostles were saved when they healed others.

==========

Continued in next post...

Sorry,,we have reached an impasse. Actually days ago. A wall if you will. I stand firm on my belief that faith is part of the eternal life that God gives. Now I'm done.
Take care.

BCsenior · May 11, 2019

aiki said:
It is a contradiction to say, on one hand, that a person is saved by grace through faith in Christ and then on the other to say that a person must do good deeds in order to maintain that salvation.

I wish you could see the Truth ...

By grace we have been saved by faith
(and not by any of our works).
But, this is only the starting point!

Then the process of salvation begins!
Our part in our salvation is to co-operate
with the precious Holy Spirit ...
as He tries to fully sanctify us unto holiness.

But, we have free will to co-operate, or not.

There are many warning verses.
There are many conditional (if) verses.
There are many verses about testing.

It's NOT about justification only.
Salvation = justification + sanctification
Justification: taking Jesus as Savior
Sanctification: taking Jesus as Lord
------------------ (includes obedience)

Ronald · May 11, 2019

Okay, can't let these go with responding ... but the impasse is clear. I guess this is just for others who may be reading along - their benefit. You however, are in denial that it is God's will and power who saves completely, He enables us to believe, have faith and gives us the ability to hold onto it. All instructions and exhortations to follow Him and have faith are just that, instructions. Here is the gift of eternal life, cooperate with Me, stay in Me, follow Me, do this, do that; all are there because we don't see the whole picture. If we could, the Bible would be short. He's saying cooperative with MY WAY, MY TRUTH, MY LIFE. I give you all of this, a gift ... take it seriously, take care of it.
Really, our limited concept of the spiritual realm is coming from a state of blindness. We have to learn from scratch and we are so accustomed to thinking we are the directors of our own reality, the power is within us, having a "free will" to do anything, create anything and even choose God, when we are ready. We start from this ego-centric realm, where the world teaches the power is in you and when you do well, you are rewarded or when you do badly, it's not your fault, it must have been your parents, society or the environment _ even global warming. *[Can you believe the AOC is saying, caravans are coming to our borders because of global warming (oh excuse me, climate change). LOL.]
Anyways, when we become Christians, we are like infants, knowing nothing, yet still feeling like we found Jesus, we chose Him. It seems that way, yet the divine appointment was ORDAINED, with all the details, circumstances that led up to that moment when He opened your eyes. You, blind and ignorant, could not see and then you could, THEREFORE FAITH WAS NOT POSSIBLE WITHOUT GOD'S INTERVENTION, NOR IS IT POSSIBLE TO CONTINUE IN FAITH UNLESS THE HOLY SPIRIT IS IN YOU, GIVING YOU POWER TO PERSEVERE. We are exhorted to persevere, as if it's all up to us, yet, we can do nothing without Him. Well, He chose us first, draws us and opens our eyes and we initially think it was our brilliant perception and sense that brought to this conclusion, Jesus is the Way.

setst777 said:
both their believing and their suffering are granted by God.

Granted definition, (verb): to bestow or confer, especially by a formal act: to grant a charter.
to give or accord:to grant permission.

setst777 said:
Granted and giving are two different words

Really, try examining some other popular translations:

For unto you it is given on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, KJ21

For unto you it is given for Christ, that not only ye should believe in him, but also suffer for his sake, Geneva Bible

God has given you the privilege not only to believe in Christ but also to suffer for him. God’s Word

For it has been given to you on Christ’s behalf not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him, Holman Christian Standard Bible

For you have been given the privilege for the Messiah’s sake not only to believe in him but also to suffer for him. International Standard Version

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; KJV

Here is what he has given you to do for Christ. You must not only believe in him. You must also suffer for him. New International Readers Version

God has given you a special gift. You can not only believe in Christ but also suffer for him. World English NT

For it is given to you for Christ, that not only ye believe in him, but also that ye suffer for him; WYCLIFF

setst777 said:
setst RE: Lord Jesus is the Author of the kind of faith we are to follow. We are to follow Jesus to be saved and live like Jesus lived.

Kind of faith? You are being illusive and painfully in denial everything is a gift from God, including your faith.

He is the author of our faith AND we are urged to follow as He guides and empowers us to do so!

setst777 said:
their faith is credited as righteousness

Here is another misunderstanding: HIS righteousness is imputed to us -- IT IS NOT OUR HUMAN RIGHTEOUSNESS. He paid for it and therefore we are credited, it is on our account.

setst777 said:
He credited it to him as righteousness.

HIS righteousness is given to us - another gift!

setst777 said:
God predestined those whom God foreknew (those who would believe at the hearing of the Gospel - Rom 10:17) to be conformed to the image of His son. Those God predestined, He called (by the Gospel invitation and the convicting work of the Spirit). Those who are called by the Gospel, (if they do not resist, but believe as Scripture states), then He justifies (we are justified by faith according to the Scriptures - Rom 5:1-2). Those he justifies He also glorifies - salvation.

by the gospel and the convicting work of the Spirit -- IT'S ALL GOD'S DOING. You struggle with that I know - it's the human ego, this idea of "free will". That's another topic -- it's not so free. We are either slaves to God of slaves to Satan. If it were really free, than there could be no consequences to our sins, we would just die and freely float our spirits to wherever we wanted without penalty.

setst777 said:
We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose

This is another example: Try examining some other translations. This is a very important verse, yet, it's not exactly razor sharp in it's translation. "All things don't work together for good" by themselves, because the rest of the verse seems to rest on and credit humanities love for God and willingness to answer the call.
A more correct translation would be by identifying the cause upfront: God causes all things to work for good ..."

And we know [with great confidence] that God [who is deeply concerned about us] causes all things to work together [as a plan] for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to His plan and purpose. Amplified

We know that God works all things together for good for the ones who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose. Complete English Bible

Furthermore, we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called in accordance with his purpose; Complete Jewish Bible

We know that God is always at work for the good of everyone who loves him. They are the ones God has chosen for his purpose, Complete English Version

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. New American Standard Bible

We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. He appointed them to be saved in keeping with his purpose. New International Readers Version

We know that God works out everything for the good of those who love him. They are the people who are part of his plan. World English

>In conclusion, God works out everything, including your faith.

3 People Groups Going into the Lake of Fire

Exhortations

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Well-Known Member

Still an evangelist

Well-Known Member

Exhortations

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Exhortations

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Regular Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Exhortations

Still an evangelist

Exhortations

Similar threads