Can the Church Survive Without man's tradition?

Tone

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I'm not sure about your statement/ question, (maybe clarify?) ....
but as written in Scripture, God's Plan and Purpose in Salvation,
"cultural expressions" (if I understand what you mean)
have no place and no weight in deciding what to do for the Ekklesia.
Just like a private in the armed forces, does what he is ordered to do,
and does not become entangled in the affairs of this world.
He does not decide where to go, nor what to eat, nor where to put up the tent, unless directed to (given orders).

I think you've covered it. Thank you.
 
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Not David

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According to 1600's English this would be true (seeing the word could also mean "teaching"), but by our Modern understanding on that word, this is not the case. Traditions is defined as something Jesus condemned. They are essentially the additional teachings of men that in most cases violates God's Word (Scripture). They are teachings that are not written under the inspiration of God. They are the thoughts of men on trying to be religious beyond the scope of God's Word.

Again, you have to prove that the extra biblical church traditions are divine in origin. I have not seen any article make such a claim that church tradition is infallible and without error. If anything they are riddled with obvious contradictions and they appear to conflict with the Bible.
The table of content and the name of the books of the Bible are divine tradition.
 
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Not David

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According to many Christians (although in the world there is only "few who find the narrow road to life" ) ,
that is not the truth.
A lot of Christians can think anything they want and they will be different from other Christians.
 
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Eloy Craft

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Jesus never condemned traditions. His arrival was expected because of tradition. He instituted tradition when He said... Do this. . The traditions that were abused were the ones that support the people's ability to fulfill their obligations to God. He condemned those who kept them in force when they were no longer necessary for selfish reasons
 
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The table of content and the name of the books of the Bible are divine tradition.

Does it say that on them?
For example: Does it say: "The gospel of John by divine tradition."?
I think not.
Besides, the naming of something that describes what that scroll actually is not the same thing as man made traditions that attempt to thwart God's Word in some way.
Why is that every tradition I see out there practically violates God's Word in some big way?
For example: The Bible talks about those who forbid to marry and to eat meat. Yet, we have a man made tradition that appears to violate God's Word on this.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Did you know, that if you listen to the bible in MP3 format, you could totally take in the whole bible every week?

I find the born again spirits need more good food to develop spiritual attributes.

In James it is said to not be only hearers of the word . but how often do people hear the word read to them?

A lot to think about for sure.

Yes, it is even more life changing to apply God's Word to our lives instead of just listening to it, as well. But will the majority do that? Jesus says narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that finds it. Sure, we can encourage others and strive to inspire them to follow the Lord, but we also have to be realistic that we are also living in the end of last days, as well. Yes, we need to love all people (Including our enemies), but we have to realize that we walk by faith and not by sight. We can plant seeds, and another can water, but it is God that gives the increase. We may not see that increase, but that is what faith is all about.
 
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Does it say that on them?
For example: Does it say: "The gospel of John by divine tradition."?
I think not.
Besides, the naming of something that describes what that scroll actually is not the same thing as man made traditions that attempt to thwart God's Word in some way.
Why is that every tradition I see out there practically violates God's Word in some big way?
For example: The Bible talks about those who forbid to marry and to eat meat. Yet, we have a man made tradition that appears to violate God's Word on this.
The original ones didn't have "Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John", so it was added later yet you have then in your Bible and believe they were written by those individuals.
 
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Tone

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The original ones didn't have "Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John", so it was added later yet you have then in your Bible and believe they were written by those individuals.

Interesting. What else was added?
 
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DamianWarS

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I would say that even self proclaimed Sola Scriptura churches have man made traditions or teachings that are unbiblical. This would even include Protestantism (and their false Belief Alone Salvationism). They just will not admit that some of their beliefs are traditions of men. Note: Please keep in mind that I am a Trinitarian, Sola Scriptura, Non-denominational Christian.
good to know... but what does this have to do with children finding their own Christian identity when they are dominantly taught by their parents, a point you that raised against traditional based Christian faiths?
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Just another way to look at it. It seems that those who believe that the Church can survive without the Bible, are the very same who couldn't live without their tradition...
There is a very clear line of demarcation between the Christian world were the general public did not own or read Bibles. And the Christian world where the general public possesd and read Bibles. This same line of demarcation is in Bible Prophecy starting in Daniel chapter 2. Between the age of the four Gentile empires, named and therefore dated in prophecy that ended in 1453 AD. When what he been the capitol of the Roman Empire since 333AD, Constantinople was conquered and the last Roman emperor killed.

That is also the line of demaracation between the ancient despotic world and the beginnings of the free world. Between the world where real Christians were conquered, ruled over and oppressed in perpetuity. To the ever growing free world where Christian principle is dominate and Christians finally have the opportunity to have God’s earthly promises fulfilled in their lives.

The “power” behind Christians and others that agree with their principles to win their freedom to serve God without fear of oppression. To raise their children as they see fit. To be able to fulfill their dreams and conquer the evils of their generation lied in the general public freely having access to Bibles.

Without that “power.” It wouldn’t be to long before we were once again enslaved by demonically driven tyrants.
 
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Tone

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There is a very clear line of demarcation between the Christian world were the general public did not own or read Bibles. And the Christian world where the general public possesd and read Bibles.

Is this where the clergy/laity divide appears?

Between the world where real Christians were conquered, ruled over and oppressed in perpetuity.

What about the Waldensians, they had Bibles right?

*"While the early Waldensians still considered themselves Roman Catholic, they soon ran into problems with the established church for two reasons: they had no formal training as clergy, and they were handing out Bibles in the vernacular (instead of Latin). Church officials told Waldo and his Pauperes (“Poor”) to stop preaching without the consent of the local clergy."
Who were the Waldensians, and what did they believe?

Yeah, they did.
 
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Tone

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Oh wow, some more interesting info.!:

"A traveling Waldensian preacher was known as a barba and could be either a man or a woman. The barbes taught poverty, individual responsibility, and self-denial, and they promoted evangelism via public preaching and the personal study of the Scriptures (in one’s own language). The Waldensians loved the Bible and insisted that the Bible be their sole authority; at the same time, they publicly criticized the corruption of the Roman Catholic clergy. The Waldensians rejected many of the superstitious traditions of Catholicism, including prayers for the dead and holy water, and they spoke against indulgences and the doctrine of purgatory. Communion, they said, was a memorial of Christ’s death, not a sacrifice. They did not follow the church’s calendar concerning days of fasting, and they refused to bow before altars, venerate saints, or treat “holy” bread as holy. In short, the Waldensians could be seen as launching a pre-Reformation reform movement."
Who were the Waldensians, and what did they believe?

*Women preachers even...
 
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Tone

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"WHO ARE THE BIBLELESS PEOPLE?
A Bibleless people group is a language community in need of a Bible translation. They have no known Scripture and no active translation project.

Believe it or not, about a quarter of the world’s languages are still waiting for a single word of the Bible — millions of people are without the hope and transformation power of God’s Word! We believe that the Good News of Jesus Christ is for all people, and they need access to him through a language and form they clearly understand.

So in 1982 Wycliffe formed the Bibleless Peoples Prayer Project (BPPP) with the resolute goal to recruit men, women and children to prayerfully lay the foundation for a translation program to begin in each of the world's Bibleless people groups. We believe the true beginning of a Bible translation is when someone starts praying for it to happen."
How Do I Pray for Bibleless People New - Wycliffe Bible Translators
 
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Tone

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Jesus never condemned traditions. His arrival was expected because of tradition. He instituted tradition when He said... Do this. . The traditions that were abused were the ones that support the people's ability to fulfill their obligations to God. He condemned those who kept them in force when they were no longer necessary for selfish reasons

Mark 7
"7They worship Me in vain; they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.’ 8You have disregarded the commandment of God to keep the tradition of men.”9He went on to say, “You neatly set aside the commandment of God to maintain your own tradition."

I think you are rightly making a distinction between the "commandment of God" and "the tradition of men". Yes, the people set up their own rules (sometimes even based on His commands) and when these traditions were placed above His instruction...He rebuked them.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Is this where the clergy/laity divide appears?



What about the Waldensians, they had Bibles right?

*"While the early Waldensians still considered themselves Roman Catholic, they soon ran into problems with the established church for two reasons: they had no formal training as clergy, and they were handing out Bibles in the vernacular (instead of Latin). Church officials told Waldo and his Pauperes (“Poor”) to stop preaching without the consent of the local clergy."
Who were the Waldensians, and what did they believe?

Yeah, they did.
The Waldensians and a hundred other groups, peoples, movements are exactly what I am referring to when I said real Christians were conquered, oppressed, annihilated etc etc.
When ever some group of people for whatever reason. Usually some hapless priest or monk started reading the Bible that thier monastery or church had and took it to heart. Started preaching what they were discovering. The powers that existed would eventually crush them. Genocide was often employed.

People did not have Bibles in their homes. For one thing it was often illegal for people and since they were hand written the authorities could easily keep on top of the situation and destroy what they found. You had to have special permissions and or the right political connections to actually have a Bible.

What occurred when that fourth empire fell, the very year actually. Was the first European printing press went online. The first book printed? A Bible. Within 30 years books and pamphlets went from tens of thousands of hand written or printed by wood carved plates to the tens of millions. The authorities simply could not keep ahead of it. The Protestant reformation was just one of dozens that happened over the millennia. The only reason it was successful and the others failed, failed because the Protestants were destroyed. Was because this time, the people had Bibles. That was the first time in human history the general public actually got Bibles. That happened in Northern Europe. Then another first in human history outside of ancient Israel occurred. The powers that existed were not able to militarily conquer the people who were gaining access to God’s Word. They certainly tried. Cost tens of millions of lives. That is the difference between the age of the four gentile empires and the age of promise that followed.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Yes, it is even more life changing to apply God's Word to our lives instead of just listening to it, as well. But will the majority do that? Jesus says narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that finds it. Sure, we can encourage others and strive to inspire them to follow the Lord, but we also have to be realistic that we are also living in the end of last days, as well. Yes, we need to love all people (Including our enemies), but we have to realize that we walk by faith and not by sight. We can plant seeds, and another can water, but it is God that gives the increase. We may not see that increase, but that is what faith is all about.
I like to have faith in God to sanctify people over a long period of time.

Trusting God to be able to do His job, that's what Faith is all about.
 
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A point that's often missed is that before the printing press it was extraordinarily expensive to get a Bible: Only the aristocracy could afford them. You needed a thousand sheep and three years wages to buy a single Bible. The sheep to provide the velum (aka "sheep's skin") to write on, and the three years wages for the monk who would spend the next three years handwriting the Bible onto the velum you provided. This isn't even touching on the fact that 90% of the people were illiterate and only the aristocracy and those few with education could actually read the Bible.
 
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I wouldn't call these "man's traditions"; though they must be preserved by us, they do not originate with us.



What does qualify as a legit and godly tradition?
The traditions of your church/sect/group are Traditions of Men while those of my church/sect/group are godly and legit. In fact, mine aren’t trsditions at all , but the Clear Teaching of Scripture.
 
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Tone

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The traditions of your church/sect/group are Traditions of Men while those of my church/sect/group are godly and legit. In fact, mine aren’t trsditions at all , but the Clear Teaching of Scripture.

Any examples?
 
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Tone

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The Protestant reformation was just one of dozens that happened over the millennia. The only reason it was successful and the others failed, failed because the Protestants were destroyed. Was because this time, the people had Bibles. That was the first time in human history the general public actually got Bibles.

Oh wow...and to think about all those who believe the Church can survive without the Bible...I wonder what that would look like.

A point that's often missed is that before the printing press it was extraordinarily expensive to get a Bible: Only the aristocracy could afford them. You needed a thousand sheep and three years wages to buy a single Bible. The sheep to provide the velum (aka "sheep's skin") to write on, and the three years wages for the monk who would spend the next three years handwriting the Bible onto the velum you provided. This isn't even touching on the fact that 90% of the people were illiterate and only the aristocracy and those few with educations could actually read the Bible.

So, the tradition of keeping the Bible in production...do you believe that it can be found within the Bible itself...maybe it is a "tending of the garden"?
 
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