Can Calvinism reconcile God ordaining Adam to sin, and still allow Adam to have a free will?
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Do you believe the word "elect" changes its meaning when it is applied to men, instead of angels?
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I'm not conceding anything when I say this:Maybe it would be more if you actually answered my questions.
I believed in God from a young child. When I was 8 I had a vision of a figure in white who i believed was God driving away the monsters I was having in my nightmares. Those monsters never came back. I went to Sunday School in spite of no one in my family being Christian. We had Bible reading a hymn and prayer every morning at high school during the six years I was there. But I never made a decision for Christ, although I knew I should but had all sorts of excuses. At the ace of 19 I had a chance meeting with an outreach worker who told me the gospel. He invited me to his church. The preacher preached on the only Bible story I knew and I was impressed by his passion for the gospel.
During the altar call, as I was sitting there thinking my excuses, as I thought of an excuse, the preacher shot it down. I was just one of 400 people in that church and he didn't know I was even there, but the Holy Spirit did. When I ran out of excuses I had to go up and receive Christ.
Now, this has probably played right into your hands and proved your case!
It shows that the Holy Spirit was working on me for at least 11 years before I finally accepted Christ. It is also interesting that after two years I was prayed for in a weekend conference and I got the same vision of the figure in white and I ended up face down on the floor weeping my eyes out. That changed my whole life and through it Jesus made Himself known to me and that certain inner knowledge has never left me.
Now, was that because I was chosen before the foundation of the world? I believed that for 40 years and identified myself as a Calvinist, that a person can't come to Christ unless the Holy Spirit works in him. I have even written a book on true conversion where I have said exactly that! Because I couldn't deny my own experience.
But I just couldn't believe that God would deliberately keep people from believing the gospel and instead believed, as I do now, that prayer for the lost will activate the Holy Spirit to work in them to bring them to faith so they can choose for Christ.
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Thanks for sharing that. But I asked a straightforward question about Romans 8:30, and you have not answered it. Why is that?I'm not conceding anything when I say this:
I believed in God from a young child. When I was 8 I had a vision of a figure in white who i believed was God driving away the monsters I was having in my nightmares. Those monsters never came back. I went to Sunday School in spite of no one in my family being Christian. We had Bible reading a hymn and prayer every morning at high school during the six years I was there. But I never made a decision for Christ, although I knew I should but had all sorts of excuses. At the ace of 19 I had a chance meeting with an outreach worker who told me the gospel. He invited me to his church. The preacher preached on the only Bible story I knew and I was impressed by his passion for the gospel.
During the altar called as I was sitting there thinking my excuses, as I thought of an excuse, the preacher shot it down. I was just one of 400 people in that church and he didn't know I was even there, but the Holy Spirit did. When I ran out of excuses I had to go up and receive Christ.
Now, this has probably played right into your hands and proved your case!
It shows that the Holy Spirit was working on me for at least 11 years before I finally accepted Christ. It is also interesting that after two years I was prayed for in a weekend conference and I got the same vision of the figure in white and I ended up face down on the floor weeping my eyes out. That changed my whole life and through it Jesus made Himself known to me and that certain inner knowledge has never left me.
Now, was that because I was chosen before the foundation of the world? I believed that for 40 years and identified myself as a Calvinist, that a person can't come to Christ unless the Holy Spirit works in him. I have even written a book on true conversion where I have said exactly that! Because I couldn't deny my own experience.
But I just couldn't believe that God would deliberately keep people from believing the gospel and instead believed, as I do now, that prayer for the lost will activate the Holy Spirit to work in them to bring them to faith so they can choose for Christ.
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Okay. If you took that verse out of its context of the other verses and ignored every other verse in the Bible that shows that all are equally invited to come to faith in Christ, then you could believe that God predestined people to be called to come to Christ and be justified. Going by my personal experience, it really seemed that way for me. It really did seem that God had chosen me for salvation and worked on me for all that time until I came to the place where i made my decision for Christ.
"Ah ha!" You say. "I got you!" But not so fast!
Because I'm trained in Hermeneutics (the principles of interpreting Scripture), I consider the 10 verses before and the ten after to view the verse in its context. So let's unpack the whole passage in context. For the sake of space, I am quoting 5 verses before and 5 after. I am using the Amplified Bible to make sure the meaning comes out more clearly.
"25 But if we hope for what is still unseen by us, we wait for it with patience and composure.
26 So too the [Holy] Spirit comes to our aid and bears us up in our weakness; for we do not know what prayer to offer nor how to offer it worthily as we ought, but the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings too deep for utterance.
27 And He Who searches the hearts of men knows what is in the mind of the [Holy] Spirit [what His intent is], because the Spirit intercedes and pleads [before God] in behalf of the saints according to and in harmony with God’s will.
In these verses we see that Paul is talking to those who already are Christian believers. This is seen in his use of "we", "our","us" and "the saints". We also see that the Holy Spirit prays for us according to God's will. This is in harmony with Jesus saying to Peter, "I have prayed for you that your faith fails not." It is also in harmony with the gloried Jesus who intercedes for the saints day and night before the throne of God.
28 We are assured and know that [[j]God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose.
Here we see that Paul is assuring us, because the Holy Spirit is praying for us, and that God is our Partner in our efforts to serve Christ and all things work together and fit into His plan for good for those who love God and are called according to His design and purpose. This shows that God has a design and a purpose for mankind and is working alongside the saints to being it to pass.
29 For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was [k]aware and [l]loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren.
Paul's use of the word "for" is connected with the previous verse and "for that reason" is what is implied. Because God has designed a plan that He is developing for mankind and that the past, present and future are the same in His mind (note: He does not time travel into the past or the future at all, but He knows it), He foreknew and was aware of all those who were going to receive Christ, and loving them, preordained them to be molded into the image of Christ, so that Christ can be the elder Brother of many who have received Him as Saviour.
30 And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being].
So we come to the verse you want me to answer:
It is linked to the previous verse by the word "thus". What this means is that God, in his foreknowledge and awareness of those who were to choose for Christ in the future, He preordained them. Note: that there is nothing to say that He preordained anyone else for anything. So the passage does not explain anything about preordaining anyone to hell. The only people Paul says is preordained by God are those who have received Christ, and they were not preordained to receive Christ in the first place, but those who did choose Christ were preordained to be molded into the image of Christ. Paul would have clearly said that the saints were destined and preordained to choose for Christ if that was the case. We don't see that in these two verses. What we do see is Paul plainly showing that the predestination happens AFTER the person chooses Christ, and not before. To say that predestination is involved in people choosing Christ is to add to God's Word something that is not there, and is putting words into Paul's mouth that he never said.
Paul says that those who choose for Christ are "also" called. That means that the calling comes at the same time as the predestination, along with justification and glorification. This shows clearly that a person chooses for Christ, and then he is converted to Christ (called, justified, and glorified). This shows that God foreknew and was aware of those who were going to choose for Christ, and for those He predestined to convert them to Christ.
31 What then shall we say to [all] this? If God is for us, who [can be] against us? [Who can be our foe, if God is on our side?]
32 He who did not withhold or spare [even] His own Son but gave Him up for us all, will He not also with Him freely and graciously give us all [other] things?
33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect [when it is] God Who justifies [that is, Who puts us in right relation to Himself? Who shall come forward and accuse or impeach those whom God has chosen? Will God, Who acquits us?]
34 Who is there to condemn [us]? Will Christ Jesus (the Messiah), Who died, or rather Who was raised from the dead, Who is at the right hand of God actually pleading as He intercedes for us?
35 Who shall ever separate us from Christ’s love? Shall suffering and affliction and tribulation? Or calamity and distress? Or persecution or hunger or destitution or peril or sword?
36 Even as it is written, For Thy sake we are put to death all the day long; we are regarded and counted as sheep for the slaughter" (Romans 8:25-35).
The rest of the passage shows the effects that genuine conversion has on us, and doesn't need further explanation.
The passages goes right along with my belief that if we pray for the conversion of sinners, God will answer our prayers and work in them by the Holy Spirit to influence and persuade them to come to Christ. He knows beforehand who will and who won't, but He does not disclose this to us because He wants us to pray for all sinners who come across our path. He wants us to know that every sinner we meet and pray for has the potential and ability to receive Christ.
Therefore, as the result of prayer, the Holy Spirit will give the understanding of the gospel and the information needed to make the choice to receive Christ to every unconverted person, and the only ones who will find themselves in hell will be the ones who will be there because of their willful choice to reject Christ, and not because God preordained them to hell as part of His design for them.
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Sorry, but that’s the longest non-answer I’ve ever seen.
Those who are called are justified. That means that those who are called are made righteous. Now, working backwards, those who are called are those predestined to be conformed.
This fits well with the first part of the chapter where Paul explains that without the Spirit, you can’t even believe in Christ.
Regardless of whether you agree or not, I’ve demonstrated that Reformed Theology is based in scripture.
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For those who have been following this thread, it is obvious that neither Hammster or I are prepared to concede to each other's views on Calvinism. But you will see that even though the discussion and debate has been quite spirited at times, it has been done with absolute respect and goodwill. I think that the way we have handled our respective responses in the thread, we have set an excellent example of how debates and discussions between opposing views should be handled. We have kept away from "kicking the player instead of the ball" and have discussed and debated on the issues without turning to personal attacks on each other. It is true that we got a little off-topic from the OP's first post, but that has made the thread very interesting and insightful. Having the debate with Hammster has caused me to study the 5 points of Calvinism more deeply from both sides of the fence, and because of it, it has been a very valuable learning experience for me - even though it looks like we are going to end up in a stalemate.
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Regeneration does not come before faith, or after faith, based on the text found below.
It comes when a person comes to faith.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
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This means that it is a useless exercise to pray for the conversion of sinners, because God will answer prayers only in His will.
"And this is the confidence that we have before Him: If we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we already possess what we have asked of Him" (1 John 5:14-15).
But if we are praying for the conversion of sinners, and we don't know whether God has ordained them to life or death, how can we have the confidence that God will even hear such prayers, let alone be able to possess what we have asked of Him?
"But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do" (James 1:6-8).
If you don't know whether the person whose conversion you are asking God for is actually in His will - because God may have reordained that person to wrath and hell, how can you pray in faith? You have to have serious doubts while you are making such a prayer, and therefore would be double-minded while praying. this means that according to James, inspired by the Holy Spirit, you should not expect God to answer your prayer and convert that person to Christ.
Therefore, you should give up praying for the lost, because you would be wasting your time and being hypocritical into the bargain because you are praying for something you are not not sure you believe will come to pass.
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Let me ask you this...when you pray for conversion, what are you hoping God to do that He’s not already doing?
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Except for the fact that you failed to go backwards to the beginning of that text, (what condition precedes predestination)?
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I have been extremely busy the past few days, but I see this conversation has continued, even though it has departed from the OP.
There are those who believe they have reconciled the Sovereignty of God (according to Calvinism) and free will ... Not only do I disagree, but I plan on writing an article over the weekend, and posting it here for all to consider.
While I believe Calvinists are sincere, I believe they are sincerely wrong.
There are those who believe they have reconciled the Sovereignty of God (according to Calvinism) and free will ... Not only do I disagree, but I plan on writing an article over the weekend, and posting it here for all to consider.
While I believe Calvinists are sincere, I believe they are sincerely wrong.
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I pray for sinners with the absolute certainty that my prayers will be heard because it is God's will that none should perish but that all may come to repentance. Of course we know that not all will come to repentance. This is frustrating the grace of God:
"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain" (Galatians 2:21). I know that Paul is talking about those who are trying to be saved by keeping the law, but it is an equal frustration of God's grace for unconverted people to refuse to accept God's grace and mercy so they can be saved and not lost.
Also, look at this verse: "Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is" (Ephesians 5:17). This means that we have to be absolutely sure what the will of God is in every respect, otherwise we are being foolish in our conduct and religion. So, it is clear that there are only two alternatives: A total understanding of the will of God, or foolishness.
This means that if we are not totally sure and understand what the will of God is in the conversion of sinners, then praying for their conversion is foolishness if we don't know whether they are preordained to Election or Reprobation.
And because God has not disclosed to any of us what He foreknows, then there is no way in the world that we are going to know who is of the Elect and who is not.
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Even though we went off topic and discussed stuff you did not plan on or expect, I have had a lot of fun and enjoyment in this thread, so much so that a couple of times I went past midnight without realising it. But as I said, the respectful and gentle nature of our exchanges has made this thread very successful in giving both sides of the debate very clearly.
But if you feel that the thread as run its course, then as the OP you have the right to have it closed and I don't think that Hammster or I would be offended in any way, because we know it wouldn't be due to an unkind personal slanging match between two people as has happened on other controversial threads.
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But as I very clearly presented
much earlier, foreknowledge is not for loving, it is having knowledge of prior to this time.
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Isn't that what I have been saying all along? That through His foreknowledge He knew who was and is going to receive Christ as Saviour?
I have never denied that it is through the work of the Holy Spirit giving a clear understanding of the gospel, in accordance with the Scripture that the things of God are spiritually discerned, and that the god of this world has blinded those who believe not lest they should see the gospel and receive Christ. So, it needs the Holy Spirit to enlighten lost souls an answer to the prayers of the saints. This does not mean regeneration which comes after choosing Christ, but the Holy Spirit breaking through the blindness so that the person can see what the gospel is all about.
I think that many souls are lost because many Christians are too lazy to spend the time praying for the light of the gospel to shine into their hearts. So I do certainly support the work of the Holy Spirit in the conversion of sinners, but not regeneration involving the Holy Spirit indwelling the unsaved person before he chooses for Christ. The Holy Spirit does not baptise a person into the body of Christ before they choose for Christ, but afterward.
"I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints" (Ephesians 1:18).
"The people who walk in darkness Will see a great light; Those who live in a dark land, The light will shine on them" (Isaiah 9:2).
"He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth" (Isaiah 49:6). This is the role of the evangelist.
"A LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES, And the glory of Your people Israel" (Luke 2:32).
"I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness" (John 12:46, repeated in Acts 13:47).
"to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me" (Acts 28:18).
"For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ" (2 Corinthians 4:6).
All these Scriptures support the work of the Holy Spirit in enlightening souls to the understanding of the gospel so that they can make an informed choice about whether they want to accept Christ or reject Him. There will be many who will hear the voice of the Lord (Hebrews 3:15) and will turn to Christ, but others through their wickedness will harden their hearts against Him.
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