Honest Exegeting of Romans 9

klutedavid · May 10, 2019

Tom Farebrother said:
It's not so simple, the convenant made with Abraham continues from when it was first spoken until it finds final and complete fulfillment. The details change, from our perspective, but the convenant God made to those who would live in faith is the same throughout. The breaking it down based on semantics is just something we do to try and get our heads around it.

The covenant or the promise made to Abraham continues?

Tom 1 · May 10, 2019

klutedavid said:
The covenant or the promise made to Abraham continues?

“I will remember my covenant with Jacob and my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭26:42‬ ‭NIV‬‬
Leviticus 26:42 I will remember my covenant with Jacob and my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now

Grip Docility · May 10, 2019

klutedavid said:
I have never been sure how to interpret these passages written by Paul in chapter eleven of Romans.

Was Paul incorrect on this idea that all Israel would be saved?

Personally, at this point, I don’t think so, at all.

In brief, He distinguishes 3 distinct Groups without any confusion by Romans 11.

Paul is a voice of the ascended Jesus, so if he makes one prophetic mistake, it would render him a false prophet.

The oversimplified answer, which I disagree with, currently, is that Paul is talking about the BOC only and all Unbelieving Jews that die Unbelievers are out of luck.

The issue I have with that is that the BOC is accounted for very clearly in Scripture and bypasses Judgment, per scripture to be with Christ.

This sets the stage for something incredible that Paul especially brings to light with amazing verbiage in Romans 11.

The Jews didn’t expect the Messiah to come with salvation through faith, Coming of Christ... Part 1, so we can then easily surmise that the BOC isn’t expecting the Messiah to return with salvation and justice offered, yet here Paul is speaking of a future hope for his Genetic Brethren that are enemies of the Gospel.

He even suggests how much greater the harvest will be because of their return.

I don’t believe that human choice to reject God to His face will be ignored by God, thus even genetic Jews have the opportunity to be lost eternally... yet it seems clear in scripture the dead being judged, instead of “condemned”, offers insight into a plan God has upon His return that may just well be one final alter call, before He brings tha bam, in the same event (Coming of Jesus... Part 2)

I too had difficulty with these passages, so I began to obsess over them, pray and study them in unflinching context, one verse at a time. By the time I was done... I started to notice Israel is back. The scripture became more personal to me as God’s stubborn children were at it again and I could see prophecy taking shape before our very eyes!

Thank you for the positive guidance and excellent recommendation that I will follow through with,

All blessings in Jesus to you!

Grip Docility · May 10, 2019

His student said:
The Lord will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Revelation 20 makes it clear that the people from various nations on earth will rebel and will surround Jerusalem at the end of the Millennium.

Jesus made it clear that when He returns to set up His kingdom on earth He will gather and judge the nations.

It's hard for me to fathom how people cannot see that the restored literal earthly nation of Israel will quite likely be a part of those scenarios.

Even on the "new earth", after this one passes away - there will be a city called Jerusalem where the tabernacle of God will be.

The Word of God says, "The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it."

It also says that, "the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

It is amazing to me that Christians have such a strong unfounded aversion to the idea of the restoration of the literal nation of Israel on earth that they can ignore or fail to see that it is highly unlikely that God has a plan for Egypt, Russia, Syria, Ethiopia, Bulgaria, Romania, German, China, England and or any number of secondary nations that have existed on this earth and He has none for the rotten old nation of Israel.

What's wrong with this picture?

This^ Amen!

You even correctly divided Heavenly Jerusalem Above from Earthly Jerusalem! :amen:

crossnote · May 10, 2019

klutedavid said:
I have never been sure how to interpret these passages written by Paul in chapter eleven of Romans.

Was Paul incorrect on this idea that all Israel would be saved?

Good question, I'll give two passages and try to make sense of them.

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(Rom 2:28-29)

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(Rom 11:1-5)

In Romans 2 above Paul is describing a true Jew (Israel) as one who not only is of the natural lineage of Abraham-Isaac- Jacob BUT ALSO has the faith of Abraham.

In Rom 11:1-5 we see that God preserves a remnant of these true believers in Elias' day as God will preserve and save all those 'true Jews' in the end times. Naturally not all Jews from all history will be saved as many have died rejected their Messiah, but those turning during the Tribulation, crying out to Him will be saved.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ Mt 23:37-39

Paul was correct!! It is the naysayers of Paul that would say different.

Grip Docility · May 10, 2019

crossnote said:
Good question, I'll give two passages and try to make sense of them.

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(Rom 2:28-29)

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(Rom 11:1-5)

In Romans 2 above Paul is describing a true Jew (Israel) as one who not only is of the natural lineage of Abraham-Isaac- Jacob BUT ALSO has the faith of Abraham.

In Rom 11:1-5 we see that God preserves a remnant of these true believers in Elias' day as God will preserve and save all those 'true Jews' in the end times. Naturally not all Jews from all history will be saved as many have died rejected their Messiah, but those turning during the Tribulation, crying out to Him will be saved.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ Mt 23:37-39

Factor in that the dead will be raised and see this Nation and gathering identify WHO HE REALLY IS to them, and there may... just may be one last alter call before things get... pardon the pun... “Old Testament”.

crossnote · May 10, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Factor in that the dead will be raised and see this Nation and gathering identify WHO HE REALLY IS to them, and there may... just may be one last alter call before things get... pardon the pun... “Old Testament”.

Things may get a bit 'Tanachy' but the sacrifices will be turned to thank offerings and the fasts will be turned to feasts.

klutedavid · May 10, 2019

In Romans 2 above Paul is describing a true Jew (Israel) as one who not only is of the natural lineage of Abraham-Isaac- Jacob BUT ALSO has the faith of Abraham.

Do you accept that Paul is talking about genetic Jews in Romans two?

In Rom 11:1-5 we see that God preserves a remnant of these true believers in Elias' day as God will preserve and save all those 'true Jews' in the end times. Naturally not all Jews from all history will be saved as many have died rejected their Messiah, but those turning during the Tribulation, crying out to Him will be saved.

Obviously this is the case.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ Mt 23:37-39

Paul was correct!! It is the naysayers of Paul that would say different.

That is the passage (Matthew 23) that causes the conflict with Romans eleven, all Israel will be saved.

That is why I cannot correctly interpret chapter eleven of Romans.

Both conditions cannot be true, the desolate house of Israel cannot be also saved at the end.

Grip Docility · May 10, 2019

klutedavid said:
Do you accept that Paul is talking about genetic Jews in Romans two?

Obviously this is the case.

That is the passage (Matthew 23) that causes the conflict with Romans eleven, all Israel will be saved.

That is why I cannot correctly interpret chapter eleven of Romans.

Both conditions cannot be true, the desolate house of Israel cannot be also saved at the end.

At one point the Jews believed the Gentiles or “Goyem” were unsavable. It is possible that all Israel will account for salvation offered at the final judgment.

It will be pretty literal as the great white throne of judgment equates in all prophetic scripture to the judgment of those that gather against the Holy City, before the New Jerusalem comes down, but after the dead, not in Christ are resurrected to judgment

IMO, even those that rejected Him will see that He truly is God and though some may reject true circumcision of the heart, thus dealing their lack of place in the Final Sabbath for God’s people, there indeed will be many that do accept the Lord of the Sabbath’s “Rest”.

klutedavid · May 10, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Paul is a voice of the ascended Jesus, so if he makes one prophetic mistake, it would render him a false prophet.

Not sure if this is true.

The apostles were convinced that Jesus was returning very soon and definitely within the next few decades. They were shocked when they got older and Jesus had not returned yet.

The apostles also read and interpreted the Old Testament in order to more fully understand the revelation of the Christ.

So I would not be surprised if a prophecy here or there would be erroneous.

Further, the Old Testament prophets were not always spot on with their prophecies either.

Grip Docility · May 10, 2019

klutedavid said:
Not sure if this is true.

The apostles were convinced that Jesus was returning very soon and definitely within the next few decades. They were shocked when they got older and Jesus had not returned yet.

The apostles also read and interpreted the Old Testament in order to more fully understand the revelation of the Christ.

So I would not be surprised if a prophecy here or there would be erroneous.

Further, the Old Testament prophets were not always spot on with their prophecies either.

If a passage doesn’t read fulfilled in full, it hasn’t been fulfilled in full yet.

I agree that Paul is not Jesus, but he claimed to be speaking the words Jesus gave him.

It’s always valuable to note what has and has not been fulfilled yet.

klutedavid · May 10, 2019

Grip Docility said:
If a passage doesn’t read fulfilled in full, it hasn’t been fulfilled in full yet.

I agree that Paul is not Jesus, but he claimed to be speaking the words Jesus gave him.

It’s always valuable to note what has and has not been fulfilled yet.

Paul may have claimed to be speaking what the Spirit confirmed and I agree for much of the time, this appears to be the case.

Yet GD, Paul was not infallible and Paul was a fanatical and patriotic Jew.

The house of Israel rejected Jesus and that house of David became desolate. That partial hardening of Israel that Paul refers to was not just a partial hardening of Israel. For not many years after Romans was written Jerusalem was utterly desolate.

I have always wondered if Paul would have written chapter eleven of Romans after that destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.

Grip Docility · May 10, 2019

What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:14-15 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:14-15 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Here, Paul now poses the question if God is Unjust... which is quite a serious question!

He immediately affirms that God is not to reveal his stance, before anyone can say he inferred otherwise! This happens in preaching all the time!

A question is asked to prepare the hearer for the proper train of thought. How does Paul follow up the train of thought?

Upon Moses asking God to strike his name from the book of life if God doesn’t follow through with His promises to the Literal, Earthly Children of Israel, God replies as Paul quotes. Now we’re seeing Paul parallel with Moses in that he opens with a desire to nearly revoke his salvation so the Enemy of the Gospel Brethren of Jewish descent that he is hurting over, can have their salvation!

So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. For the Scripture tells Pharaoh: I raised you up for this reason so that I may display My power in you and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth.
Romans 9:16-17 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:16-17 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now we see that Paul affirms salvation comes by Gods complete work and depends on His consistent goodness, not our limited human reservoirs of patience and Love, nor our interpretation of God’s goodness.

He follows by showing that God raised Pharaoh to power for the purpose of displaying His goodness!

Pharaoh had 10 supernatural chances to “Change his mind” and align with the children of Israel. He will also be raised from the dead, per Revelation 20, with the rest of the “dead”, to see Who he was resisting!

Will Pharaoh desire to metaphorically Rule in Hell, rather than Serve in Heaven? We’ll have to wait for that cliffhanger!

So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those He wants to harden. You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?”
Romans 9:18-20 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:18-20 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Only God knows the heart and thus only His final judgment is RIGHTEOUS! The Mercy of God disgusts and HARDENS the wicked, thus the peculiar Grace that divides humanity, even now, when offered by God, can either Soften Or Harden a man.

Then Paul follows through with God’s right to spell out that God can do as He pleases and we should question ourselves if we question His Mercy, by questioning God “why He acts as He acts upon humanity”.

Many will be hostile to God for giving them choice, choice that may lead to their eternal doom, but who are they who enjoyed life by the design of the Maker to question their Maker?

Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor?
Romans 9:21 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:21 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

When God, who gave life, choice and the universe itself to each human, who are they to question when the final judgment is rendered and some of the Unbelieving Dead are raised to find salvation, while others of the Unbelieving dead are raised to find eternal damnation?

And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction?
Romans 9:22 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:22 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

God has been patient with human rebellion for Millenia! When He has put up with the Hatred, Bitterness and Strife of mankind for so long... and for the specific purpose that He desired “None should be lost but all come to repentance”... thusly... we know when He sets up the final TEST and some are thrown to eternal Damnation, that He knows what’s He’s doing and has the right to do so! Cast those crowns at His Feet!!!

And what if He did this to make known the riches of His glory on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory — on us, the ones He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Romans 9:23-24 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:23-24 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now Paul assures the Body of Christ that it has full place with God By binding God’s mercy to the Gentiles as Prophesied in the Old Testament! Paul is now blending Old Testament scripture fully with his words, being powerful with the Spirit of Christ, within him!

As He also says in Hosea: I will call Not My People, My People, and she who is Unloved, Beloved. And it will be in the place where they were told, you are not My people, there they will be called sons of the living God.
Romans 9:25-26 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:25-26 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now, Paul uses Hosea to assure the People that they have place in God’s Love Story, and he reveals the cutting off of unbelieving Israel, followed through the reassurance of the grafting in of the Believing Gentiles and the Believing Israelite Jews to the Body of Christ.

Continued... Romans 9:27-28

Concluded... Romans 9:29-33

Grip Docility · May 10, 2019

klutedavid said:
Paul may have claimed to be speaking what the Spirit confirmed and I agree for much of the time, this appears to be the case.

Yet GD, Paul was not infallible and Paul was a fanatical and patriotic Jew.

The house of Israel rejected Jesus and that house of David became desolate. That partial hardening of Israel that Paul refers to was not just a partial hardening of Israel. For not many years after Romans was written Jerusalem was utterly desolate.

I have always wondered if Paul would have written chapter eleven of Romans after that destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.

2 Timothy 3:16 gives us assurance Romans 11 is correct as man is Fallible, but God is Infallible, thus we must know with assurance that scripture is good.

False prophecy of any sort renders any speech from a prophet, worthless.

This is precept upon precept.

LittleLambofJesus · May 10, 2019

Grip Docility said:
I speak the truth in Christ —I am not lying; my conscience is testifying to me with the Holy Spirit —
Romans 9:1 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:1 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Paul just made it clear he’s about to be painfully honest, and has bound his words to be judged by God, as He is holding himself in personal accountability of Preaching what he’s about to preach under God.

that I have intense sorrow and continual anguish in my heart.

For I could almost wish to be cursed and cut off from the Messiah for the benefit of my brothers, my own flesh and blood.

Verses 3-5 reveal why! Paul literally wishes he could revoke his salvation to give it to a group of people that apparently matter to him enormously. As Paul is speaking under oath of the Holy Spirit, he is revealing God’s heart, as well. This lines up with Christ’s words that close Matthew 23 with deep sorrow and lamenting, but show hope.
Continued... Romans 9:6-13
Continued... Romans 9:14-26

Great thread.
I actually have a thread on the Book of Romans I was translating back in 2009. I will have to revisit it, since there are more Greek resources available and a lot of it got garbled in the changeover......

The word "anathema" is an interesting study in itself...........

Book of Romans verse by verse study

#331 used 6 times in 6 verses. 1 times in Acts {23:14}, 1 time here in this verse, 2 times in 1 Corin, 2 times in Galatians. Most versions have "cursed or anathema".

It is formed by the prefix #303 and root word #5087 according to KJV lexicon.
The W-H Ms has a different word order than the T-R at the beginning of this verse

Romans 9:3
For I wished myself to be anathema<331> from the Christ for sake of the brothers of me. the together-kinfolk of me according to flesh.
Textus Rec.)

G331(anathema), which occurs 6 times in 6 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
331. anathema an-ath'-em-ah from 394; a (religious) ban or (concretely) excommunicated (thing or person):--accused, anathema, curse, X great.

===============================================
The corrupt murderous Judean rulers used that word when they were wanted to kill the Apostle Paul.

Anathema to Sabbath-keepers - Council of Laodicea
Anathema to Sabbath-keepers - Council of Laodicea

Acts 23:14
Who-any toward coming to the Chief-priests and to the Elders say "to-anathema<331> We anathematize<332> ourselves of no yet nothing to taste till of which we may be killing Paul.

A form of it is used in Reve 22

Reve 22:3
and every anathema/kat-anaqema <2652> not shall be still. And the throne of the God/YHWH and of the Lamb-kin/Word in Her shall be, and His bond-servants shall be offering divine-service to Him.

History of God's Holy Bible and the so-called Jews
The Hebrew word translated "utterly destroy" is 'cherem.' Both the people and the land of Canaan were 'cherem,' meaning FORCIBLY dedicated to God as withdrawn from His service and worship wherein He was not glorified, and by the hands of another, devoted to Him for destruction whereby He will be glorified. The equivalent Greek word is "anathema." In the case of the Canaanites who were natural Serpent's seed, cherem is the consecration to God of His enemies (Hebrew "hated ones" - Isaiah 34:1-8; Malachi 1:2-3; Romans 9:13), and their belongings by means of fire and sword
====================================
Romans 9:3 Commentaries: For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

accursed] Lit. an anathema; a thing devoted to ruin by a solemn curse. Such is the meaning of the word wherever else used by St Paul; 1 Corinthians 12:3; 1 Corinthians 16:22; Galatians 1:8-9. (See Bp Lightfoot’s note on Galatians 1:8.) No milder meaning will suit the intensity of this passage. St Paul could even have asked for the extremest imaginable suffering possible for man—but for certain reasons in the nature of things which forbade him. These reasons may be given thus:—To desire the curse of God would be to desire not only suffering, but moral alienation from Him, the withdrawal of the soul’s capacity to love Him. Thus the wish would be in effect an act of “greater love for our neighbour than for God[40].” Again, the redeemed soul is “not its own:” to wish the self to be accursed from Christ would thus be to wish the loss of that which He has “bought and made His own.”—But, the logical reason of the matter apart, we have only to read the close of ch. 8 to see how entire a moral impossibility it was for St Paul to complete such a wish.—The words here were perhaps written with a tacit reference to the memorable passage, Exodus 32:32-33. The answer there given to the request of Moses would alone suffice to forbid the completion of any similar request thereafter.
==================================

Bengel's Gnomen
The book of temporal life is intended in Psalm 139:16.—αὐτὸς ἐγὼ, I myself) construe these words with to be [were].—ἀνάθεμα εἶναι, to be accursed)
It will be enough to compare this passage with Galatians 3:13, where Christ is said to have been made a curse for us. The meaning is, I could have wished to bring the misery of the Jews on my own head, and to be in their place. The Jews, rejecting the faith, were accursed from Christ; comp. Galatians 1:8-9; Galatians 5:4. Whether he would have wished only the deprivation of all good, and his own destruction, and annihilation, or the suffering also of every evil, and that too both in body and in soul, and for ever, or whether, in the very excitement [paroxysm] of that prayer, he had the matter fully present before his understanding, who knows whether Paul himself, had he been questioned, would have been able exactly to define? At least that word [Ego] I [all thought of self] was entirely suppressed in him; he was looking only to others, for the sake of the Divine glory; comp. 2 Corinthians 12:15. From the loftiest pinnacle of faith (chap. 8) he now shows the highest degree of love, which was kindled by the Divine love. The thing, which he had wished, could not have been done, but his prayer was pious and solid, although under the tacit condition, if it were possible to be done; comp. Romans 8:38, I am persuaded; Exodus 32:33.—ἀπὸ τοῦ Χριστοῦ, from Christ) So ἀπὸ from 1 Corinthians 1:30; or, as Christ, being made a curse, was abandoned by the Father; so Paul, filled with Christ, wished in place of the Jews to be forsaken by Christ, as if he had been accursed. He is not speaking of excommunication from the everlasting society of the church. There is a difference between these two things, for κατάρα קללה, curse, has the greater force of the two, and implies something more absolute: חרם, anathema, something relative, Galatians 1:8-9, 1 Corinthians 16:22, the former is rather more severe, the latter milder; the former expresses the power of reconciliation by the cross of Christ; the latter is more suitable to [more applicable as regards] Paul; nor can the one be substituted for the other, either here, or in the passages quoted.—Τῶν) The apostle is speaking of the whole multitude, not of individuals.—ἀδελφῶν μου, for my brethren) This expresses the cause of his so great love toward them.—συγγενῶν μου κατὰ σάρκα, my kinsmen according to the flesh) This expresses the cause of his prayer, showing why the prayer, other things being supposed to be equal [cœteris paribus, supposing there were no objection on other grounds], was right; and by adding kinsmen, he shows that the word brethren is not to be understood, as it usually is, of Christians, but of the Jews. Christ was made a curse for us, because we were his kinsmen.

klutedavid · May 10, 2019

Grip Docility said:
2 Timothy 3:16 gives us assurance Romans 11 is correct as man is Fallible, but God is Infallible, this we must know with assurance that scripture is good.

False prophecy of any sort renders any speech from a prophet, worthless.

This is precept upon precept.

Your reference to the verse (2 Timothy 3:16) applies directly to the O.T. prophets. Paul is writing his letters in his own hand not what God is telling him to write. Paul has the inspiration of the Holy Spirit but God is not dictating the text, word by word as in the text of the Old Testament prophets.

There is a distinct difference between what God tells a prophet to write and what Paul writes when correcting a church.

Grip Docility · May 10, 2019

klutedavid said:
Your reference to the verse (2 Timothy 3:16) applies directly to the O.T. prophets. Paul is writing his letters in his own hand not what God is telling him to write. Paul has the inspiration of the Holy Spirit but God is not dictating the text, word by word as in the text of the Old Testament prophets.

There is a distinct difference between what God tells a prophet to write and what Paul writes when correcting a church.

I will be sincere... if the 66 books aren’t all the Scripture intended as God desires it to be revealed to us, we are all in a major bind.

I trust that God revealed every word for all generations.

Granted this seems illogical, but some of the places in scripture that seem sketchy, like Paul appearing to have an very negative view of women... he is actually speaking Spiritually to the Body of Christ and about its assembly.

Paul speaks as a female servant in his specific tense, on many occasions, as Jesus is our Groom and we are His wedded bride, else we couldn’t be called “bone of His bone”, as Ephesians indeed says.

Literally the Body of Christ is to say, we are wedded to Him and consummated by faith.

When a scripture offers challenge, I have often found it to have greater treasure, upon deeper study.

This is my opinion, ofcoarse.

Grip Docility · May 10, 2019

klutedavid said:
Your reference to the verse (2 Timothy 3:16) applies directly to the O.T. prophets. Paul is writing his letters in his own hand not what God is telling him to write. Paul has the inspiration of the Holy Spirit but God is not dictating the text, word by word as in the text of the Old Testament prophets.

There is a distinct difference between what God tells a prophet to write and what Paul writes when correcting a church.

There are two kinds of Prophesy.

There is the future predictive kind and then there is exegeting. A sermon is a form of relating scripture and indeed counts as teaching, prophesying.

This is why teachers are held more accountable in scripture.

If the New Testament isn’t as valid as the Old, the whole foundation of Christianity as it claims to stand is ripped back to John 5:39, and nothing more, which then begs the question if John 5:39 is even accurate, if the New Testament authors are to be questioned as reliable, which personally, I stopped questioning long ago, because the pieces fit so well together.

dqhall · May 10, 2019

Grip Docility said:
For I could almost wish to be cursed and cut off from the Messiah for the benefit of my brothers, my own flesh and blood.

They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple service, and the promises. The ancestors are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Messiah, who is God over all, praised forever. Amen.

Who is making Paul sad? His brothers of “his own flesh and blood”... which is clearly a reference to his unbelieving Jewish brothers of the Broken off nature, of ... what Nation?

Some scholars thought Paul wrote Romans from Corinth before his missionary journey to Jerusalem with alms for the poor Jewish believers there. Christian Jews have been called Messianic Jews in more recent times. These were some of Paul's own people.

Paul knew the Orthodox Jews might make trouble for him. It seems he almost considered compromising and becoming more obedient to their law. In the end he insisted that Jesus is the way to salvation ... not the Torah in its entirety.

Jesus taught murder is wrong. There are laws in the Torah against murder, yet the story of Exodus showed the execution of someone for picking up sticks on Shabaht/Saturday Sabbath as righteousness under their law.

Paul was working for a better master. Remember Jesus taught, "No man can serve two masters."

Grip Docility · May 10, 2019

dqhall said:
Some scholars thought Paul wrote Romans from Corinth before his missionary journey to Jerusalem with alms for the poor Jewish believers there. Christian Jews have been called Messianic Jews in more recent times. These were some of Paul's own people.

Paul knew the Orthodox Jews might make trouble for him. It seems he almost considered compromising and becoming more obedient to their law. In the end he insisted that Jesus is the way to salvation ... not the Torah in its entirety.

Jesus taught murder is wrong. There are laws in the Torah against murder, yet the story of Exodus showed the execution of someone for picking up sticks on Shabaht/Saturday Sabbath as righteousness under their law.

Paul was working for a better master. Remember Jesus taught, "No man can serve two masters."

To make this statement so boldly, you clearly understand the full implications of Hebrews 2:14 and 1 Corinthians 15:55-57

Spot on!

Carl Emerson · May 11, 2019

A quick question relating to this for you 'experts'...

1. When we say OLD COVENANT do we mean promises given to Abraham or Moses? I note that Abraham was promised the land and a people as a Gentile long before the giving of the Law.
2. When the temple veil was rent as He Himself desecrated the temple and removed its authority, what relation did this have to covenant.

Thanks,

Honest Exegeting of Romans 9

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Optimistic sceptic

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Berean

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Berean

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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