Jesus and Paul on Justification by the Law

bcbsr · May 7, 2019

Jesus on Justification by the Law

As I stated in a previous thread, salvation by works Christians typically confuse verses which speak of justification by law as if they are speaking of justification by faith.

Here Jesus is speaking of justification by the Law.

Luke 10:25-28 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: "’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

Salvation by works Christians will claim that to be the good news, that people should obey the law to be saved. And while Paul also writes about justification by law saying, "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13, He also writes:

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law. Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Gal 3:10-12

Both Jesus and Paul acknowledge that if you obey the Law you will live, but Paul notes that idea is not justification by faith. Justification by faith is something different, as Jesus also said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:25 No mention of the law there, rather just mentions faith alone.

And Paul noted that Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: ... That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Rom 10:5-6,9

In a similar incident As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good— except God alone" Mr 10:17,18 And that's why a person cannot be justified by the law, because there are no good people. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus

GodsGrace101 · May 7, 2019

bcbsr said:
Jesus on Justification by the Law

As I stated in a previous thread, salvation by works Christians typically confuse verses which speak of justification by law as if they are speaking of justification by faith.

Here Jesus is speaking of justification by the Law.

Luke 10:25-28 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: "’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

Salvation by works Christians will claim that to be the good news, that people should obey the law to be saved. And while Paul also writes about justification by law saying, "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13, He also writes:

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law. Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Gal 3:10-12

Both Jesus and Paul acknowledge that if you obey the Law you will live, but Paul notes that idea is not justification by faith. Justification by faith is something different, as Jesus also said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:25 No mention of the law there, rather just mentions faith alone.

And Paul noted that Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: ... That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Rom 10:5-6,9

In a similar incident As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good— except God alone" Mr 10:17,18 And that's why a person cannot be justified by the law, because there are no good people. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus

There's no such animal as a Christian that thinks he is saved by the law, or works or good deeds.

The way you explain the above makes it sound like a contradiction in the scriptures.

As to Mark 10:17-18
This would be the Rich Young Ruler...if you keep reading you'll see that Jesus told him to keep the commandments,,and then to do even MORE,,,

As to no one being good...this is your theology, but not what the bible teaches....

If there is no one good WHY did the rich young ruler ask the question as to how he could get into heaven?
And why was he answer that he kept the commandments when Jesus told him to?

There are good people,,,even UNSAVED good people (but not good according to God's will).

RDKirk · May 7, 2019

bcbsr said:
Jesus on Justification by the Law

As I stated in a previous thread, salvation by works Christians typically confuse verses which speak of justification by law as if they are speaking of justification by faith.

Here Jesus is speaking of justification by the Law.

Luke 10:25-28 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: "’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

Salvation by works Christians will claim that to be the good news, that people should obey the law to be saved. And while Paul also writes about justification by law saying, "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13, He also writes:

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law. Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Gal 3:10-12

Both Jesus and Paul acknowledge that if you obey the Law you will live, but Paul notes that idea is not justification by faith. Justification by faith is something different, as Jesus also said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:25 No mention of the law there, rather just mentions faith alone.

And Paul noted that Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: ... That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Rom 10:5-6,9

In a similar incident As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good— except God alone" Mr 10:17,18 And that's why a person cannot be justified by the law, because there are no good people. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus

What was actually your point?

bcbsr · May 7, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
As to no one being good...this is your theology, but not what the bible teaches....

Rom 3:12 "All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Halbhh · May 7, 2019

How many Salvation by works Christians are there on CF even? I think I've not seen one yet in many hundreds of posts I've read in these types of discussions.

Halbhh · May 7, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
There's no such animal as a Christian that thinks he is saved by the law, or works or good deeds.

The way you explain the above makes it sound like a contradiction in the scriptures.

As to Mark 10:17-18
This would be the Rich Young Ruler...if you keep reading you'll see that Jesus told him to keep the commandments,,and then to do even MORE,,,

As to no one being good...this is your theology, but not what the bible teaches....

If there is no one good WHY did the rich young ruler ask the question as to how he could get into heaven?
And why was he answer that he kept the commandments when Jesus told him to?

There are good people,,,even UNSAVED good people (but not good according to God's will).

It's the difference between two levels of "good" -- the human level, which is meaningful, as we are to be changed, a new person in Christ, and then show Christ in us to others, and we will be 'good' by human standards. But there is also a more ultimate level of "good", the divine level, which I think Christ referred to when He spoke this way:

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."

For all of these discussions, if a person goes deep enough, reads fully through many epistles, then I feel this grace vs works question is totally summarized according to Ephesians 2 NIV, all verses of 1-10 -- to help avoid the 'grace without fruits/works' error, we also include verse 10 just as Paul wrote it from the Spirit.

It can be paraphrased many ways, but the problem a paraphrase can have is people misunderstand the paraphrase.

Because that is inevitable, it's better instead I've finally decided to not paraphrase, not summarize.

Instead to just quote fully, full passages. Otherwise people merely mistrust the paraphrase (and our summaries often miscommunicate anyway.)

Halbhh · May 7, 2019

bcbsr said:
Jesus on Justification by the Law

As I stated in a previous thread, salvation by works Christians typically confuse verses which speak of justification by law as if they are speaking of justification by faith.

Here Jesus is speaking of justification by the Law.

Luke 10:25-28 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: "’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

Salvation by works Christians will claim that to be the good news, that people should obey the law to be saved. And while Paul also writes about justification by law saying, "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13, He also writes:

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law. Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Gal 3:10-12

Both Jesus and Paul acknowledge that if you obey the Law you will live, but Paul notes that idea is not justification by faith. Justification by faith is something different, as Jesus also said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:25 No mention of the law there, rather just mentions faith alone.

And Paul noted that Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: ... That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Rom 10:5-6,9

In a similar incident As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good— except God alone" Mr 10:17,18 And that's why a person cannot be justified by the law, because there are no good people. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus

The most convincing passage to me:

1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

We need the full passage as Paul wrote it, with verse 10. Otherwise we could potentially end up in the opposite error -- 'grace without fruits', where some paraphrases are so poor people could think they are to actually to make effort to avoid doing what Christ said to do, leading to terrible outcomes, even the worst. Matthew 7:24-27. Interestingly the Catholic Catechism I've recently found out does a great job at pointing out that all good we do is solely by Grace, enabled by Grace. It's just like John chapter 15 -- we only can bear fruit because we are on the Vine, Christ Jesus.

Lulav · May 7, 2019

bcbsr said:
Rom 3:12 "All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Put in context Paul was quoting from Psalms, which was speaking of fools, not every person. it was speaking of atheists, not believers.

Ps 53 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity;
there is none who does good.

bcbsr · May 7, 2019

Lulav said:
Put in context Paul was quoting from Psalms, which was speaking of fools, not every person. it was speaking of atheists, not believers.

Ps 53 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity;
there is none who does good.

You might want to read it in the context Paul wrote:

Rom 3:9-12 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

He applies it universally. (Which would include you as well) Seems you disagree with the apostle Paul.

RDKirk · May 7, 2019

Lulav said:
Put in context Paul was quoting from Psalms, which was speaking of fools, not every person. it was speaking of atheists, not believers.

Ps 53 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity;
there is none who does good.

Put into context, Paul was quoting Psalms, but he did mean all categories of people, as shown by his own words just before the quotation:

What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.

He made the clear point that neither Jew nor Gentile started out either more righteous or less righteous than the other by reason of birth or practice, and then backed up his point with the Psalm, clearly roping in both Jew and Gentile into the meaning of the Psalm.

Jonathan Mathews · May 7, 2019

bcbsr said:
Jesus on Justification by the Law

As I stated in a previous thread, salvation by works Christians typically confuse verses which speak of justification by law as if they are speaking of justification by faith.

Here Jesus is speaking of justification by the Law.

Luke 10:25-28 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: "’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

Salvation by works Christians will claim that to be the good news, that people should obey the law to be saved. And while Paul also writes about justification by law saying, "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13, He also writes:

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law. Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Gal 3:10-12

Both Jesus and Paul acknowledge that if you obey the Law you will live, but Paul notes that idea is not justification by faith. Justification by faith is something different, as Jesus also said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:25 No mention of the law there, rather just mentions faith alone.

And Paul noted that Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: ... That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Rom 10:5-6,9

In a similar incident As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good— except God alone" Mr 10:17,18 And that's why a person cannot be justified by the law, because there are no good people. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus

Yes! Jesus told the Pharisee that if you keep the 2 greatest commandments, "you will live". But the problem is that no one has done that except Jesus Christ. And Paul, the most Law-keeping person on the planet, STILL found that he was guilty of sin deserving death under the Law. That's why Paul wrote "all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God". The Law was given AFTER men were already sinful and unrighteous. So while you WOULD live by keeping the Law, no man can keep the Law perfectly because they are already sinful since the inquity of Adam. So while the Law was ordained to bring Life saying "if you do these things, you shall live", in REALITY, it only brought condemnation and death because everyone is sinful from birth. Only Jesus Christ was without sin, but He BECAME sin for us, taking all our sin into Himself, so that sin could be punished IN FULL on the Cross by God, and once sin was condemned and punished in Jesus Christ, he died, and God's Holiness was satisfied and it was a pleasing sacrifice to God, so God raised Jesus from the dead. Now whoever believes this can go to Jesus Christ, repenting and confessing their sins, and God will FAITHFULLY and JUSTLY forgive our sins, cleanse us from all unrighteousness, and by Grace thru our Faith, He gives us the Holy Spirit, the Righteousness of God. This is the Righteousness APART from Law, the Holy Spirit of God... the Spirit of Christ.

GodsGrace101 · May 7, 2019

Halbhh said:
It's the difference between two levels of "good" -- the human level, which is meaningful, as we are to be changed, a new person in Christ, and then show Christ in us to others, and we will be 'good' by human standards. But there is also a more ultimate level of "good", the divine level, which I think Christ referred to when He spoke this way:

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."

For all of these discussions, if a person goes deep enough, reads fully through many epistles, then I feel this grace vs works question is totally summarized according to Ephesians 2 NIV, all verses of 1-10 -- to help avoid the 'grace without fruits/works' error, we also include verse 10 just as Paul wrote it from the Spirit.

It can be paraphrased many ways, but the problem a paraphrase can have is people misunderstand the paraphrase.

Because that is inevitable, it's better instead I've finally decided to not paraphrase, not summarize.

Instead to just quote fully, full passages. Otherwise people merely mistrust the paraphrase (and our summaries often miscommunicate anyway.)

I tend to agree with you...
but some don't even understand scripture...
they make verses mean whatever they want them to mean,,,as does another member here.
I believe it's a good idea to explain verses, or exegete them, also for those reading along.

GodsGrace101 · May 7, 2019

bcbsr said:
Rom 3:12 "All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

The proper way to understand the N.T. is not to pick out one verse you like and think it means what you want it to mean.

Romans 3:12 is totally a paraphrase of different verses that come from the O.T. They are not marked for different reason, which I'll be happy to get into if necessary.

It's only saying that no one really understands God.
It's stating that when we're born we are all LOST and are not GOOD IN GOD'S EYES. This is because we are not yet born of the spirit... @Jonathan Mathews wrote a very good post regarding this so I won't repeat.

@Halbhh explained these two types of "good" also, so again, I won't repeat.

Suffice it to say that ONLY those who are born again of the spirit are recognized as being good to God.

So we all start out as sinners...we all start out as bad. We're all in the same boat and we all require salvation.

God has now set things right by sending Jesus to be our atonement..our redeemer.

There are many good people in the world....just not the kind of good that God recognizes.

JohnRabbit · May 10, 2019

Jonathan Mathews said:
The Law was given AFTER men were already sinful and unrighteous. So while you WOULD live by keeping the Law, no man can keep the Law perfectly because they are already sinful since the inquity of Adam.

and yet paul says:

Romans 4:15(NKJV)
15because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

JohnRabbit · May 10, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
It's only saying that no one really understands God.

what about this?

Psalms 111:10(NKJV)
10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praise endures forever.

GodsGrace101 · May 10, 2019

JohnRabbit said:
what about this?

Psalms 111:10(NKJV)
10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praise endures forever.

Are you saying that we understand God?

JohnRabbit · May 10, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Are you saying that we understand God?

that's what the verse is saying with the condition of course!

GodsGrace101 · May 10, 2019

JohnRabbit said:
that's what the verse is saying with the condition of course!

What condition?
We don't understand God.
We can only know about Him what He revealed to us about Himself.

If you can understand God, could you tell me why He created us knowing that we would fall and then have to deal with a life of separation from God?

What about the conflict between His sovereignty and our free will? Did He explain that about Himself?

It's the belief of all theologians that I know of that God is beyond our finite understanding.

JohnRabbit · May 10, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
What condition?
We don't understand God.
We can only know about Him what He revealed to us about Himself.

If you can understand God, could you tell me why He created us knowing that we would fall and then have to deal with a life of separation from God?

What about the conflict between His sovereignty and our free will? Did He explain that about Himself?

It's the belief of all theologians that I know of that God is beyond our finite understanding.

so how do you explain what the psalmist is saying?

JohnRabbit · May 10, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
We can only know about Him what He revealed to us about Himself.

au contraire mon ami!

1 John 2:3(NKJV)
3Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

(i hope you see the condition this time, and you are partly right)

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