Who is a Christian?

Peter J Barban · May 9, 2019

tonyt147 said:
I don't want to put words into your mouth so I have to asks: does all the people you confess Jesus to share the same core beliefs? That's the impression I'm getting from what you said about how everyone "knew what you meant".

So I'm assuming the hivemind is this: Being a Christian means you follow the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth and learn to love your neighbors regardless of what spiritual conditions you are in?

What I mean is that no one on my dorm floor was a Christian, but they knew I was meeting with Christians in my dorm room. Once I announced that I was now a Christian, they knew that I was no longer a person they would hang out with. I was now one of those "Christians".

So I didn't confess for hivemind purposes. I confessed Christ publically to face their rejection in whatever form that might take. I didn't expect them to like my decision and I was right. My family also had a lot of problems with my conversion and my roommate began to absolutely hate me.

Yes, after becoming a Christian, one should love one's neighbors as you suggested. Unfortunately, it often means that your neighbors will love you less.

Tone · May 9, 2019

Joyousperson said:
If you combine the context of covenant in the Bible and NT with the above principles of the Law of Contract, it would be noted the acceptance of the offer of God's [John 3:16] by a Christian imply a covenant is establish based on mutual agreement and the consideration of the Christian to surrender his will to God's will and to comply with the covenanted terms.

So, is this how you see it?:

Acceptance: Emotional appeal

Agreement: Intellectual assent

Consideration: Existential union

?

Tone · May 9, 2019

Joyousperson said:
Appreciate if you could reply to assist in my research.

Why are you a Christian?

That thread ^ may also help you to see that being a Christian is more than any logical formula...it is our testimonies...some of mine is post #47 of that thread.

Revelation 12
"10And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—he who accuses them day and night before our God. 11They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; and they did not love their lives so as to shy away from death. "

tonyt147 · May 9, 2019

It

Peter J Barban said:
What I mean is that no one on my dorm floor was a Christian, but they knew I was meeting with Christians in my dorm room. Once I announced that I was now a Christian, they knew that I was no longer a person they would hang out with. I was now one of those "Christians".

So I didn't confess for hivemind purposes. I confessed Christ publically to face their rejection in whatever form that might take. I didn't expect them to like my decision and I was right. My family also had a lot of problems with my conversion and my roommate began to absolutely hate me.

Yes, after becoming a Christian, one should love one's neighbors as you suggested. Unfortunately, it often means that your neighbors will love you less.

It seems like the general public have an almost "cultic" view on Christianity from what you are describing. Almost as if you became one of those "groupies" who stomp on other people's moral value as soon as you wear the Jesus Badge. Of course I'm speaking out of my ass on this one. Maybe they just have poor personal experiences with professing Christians.

I know I'm really probing right now but did your unchristian friends/family/roommate ever told you why they have prejudices against those who associates with Christian's in general? I'm just curious.

tonyt147 · May 9, 2019

ProGoddess said:
@Joyousperson
If you have stated upfront that you needed assistance in doing a research, you would have already gotten the answers - or at least most or some part of them - instead of going through 6 pages of back and forth of debates and arguments, and even got the offer to accept Christ.

(No wonder the rest of the Christian-forumers thought you were an explorer or seeker of Christ, given that you have a vast knowledge of Christianity, but fall short of experiencing Him.)

In every part of the entire forum, in its individual sections, there is a forum guidelines or "statement of purpose" in which forumers should read prior to posting. This helps to avoid unnecessary misunderstanding and dispute.

I enclosed below the link.
Statement of Purpose - Exploring Christianity Statement of Purpose

Just to highlight the first part of the statement of purpose:
This is a forum where non-Christian Seekers are encouraged to ask questions about those aspects of the Christian faith which seem hard to understand or accept, and where Christian members (see Faith groups list) can enter into discussion with them on these questions. The primary focus of this forum is Christian evangelism and discipleship, not to debate Christian Theology or challenge, attack, or argue against, Christianity. If any non-Christian member would like to challenge Christianity, they may do so in the Christian Apologetics forum. Please read and agree with this thread before posting in the Christian Apologetics forum.

Anyway, it has been an eye-opening for me to know that someone who has no interest in Christianity is doing a research on it. May I ask, what kind of research or studies are you doing and what it is for?

For the rest of the posters: You guys are such great lovers of Christ, and I have learned so much just from reading your posts. Blessings to you!

You hypocrite. You made it sound like you are all for open discussions about the Christian faith for non Christians but in actuality you discouraged such liberty.

This is what I mean:

In the Apologetics forum guideline you impose this rule on all non Christians members.

Non-Christian members must have 100 posts and 5 likes to post in this forum.

Why would you put such heavy burden on new members if you got nothing to hide?

And this:

In the interests of informed debate, members will not speak in a disrespectful way of the Christian God, the Trinity, or the Holy Scriptures (The Bible). A similar respect is expected towards the faith and sacred texts of other religions. Expressing disbelief in God is acceptable, referring to Him as a 'fairy tale' or a 'narcissistic god', or making a comment such as 'god throws a childish tantrum', is not acceptable.

You have turn a Catholic doctrine into a God. The doctrine of the trinity. What apologetics is there to discuss?

Joyousperson · May 9, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I think a better defense would be

“"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'”
‭‭MATTHEW‬ ‭7:15-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Christ gave us two most important commandments to live by that encompass the purpose for all of the commands of God and the prophets. They are to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind and to love each other as Christ loves us. If a person’s actions do not reflect these two commandments they are not bearing good fruit and are not abiding in Christ.

Yes, Christ gave commandments and advice, but how do are you obligated to abide by the commandments if there is no covenant/agreement [aka contract] established in the first place?

Therefore instead of arguing indirectly why not get to the essence and stand on firm footing, i.e. a solid rock [the covenant] to counter whatever accusations Christians are thrown with by others.

Joyousperson · May 10, 2019

ProGoddess said:
@Joyousperson
If you have stated upfront that you needed assistance in doing a research, you would have already gotten the answers - or at least most or some part of them - instead of going through 6 pages of back and forth of debates and arguments, and even got the offer to accept Christ.

(No wonder the rest of the Christian-forumers thought you were an explorer or seeker of Christ, given that you have a vast knowledge of Christianity, but fall short of experiencing Him.)

In every part of the entire forum, in its individual sections, there is a forum guidelines or "statement of purpose" in which forumers should read prior to posting. This helps to avoid unnecessary misunderstanding and dispute.

I enclosed below the link.
Statement of Purpose - Exploring Christianity Statement of Purpose

Just to highlight the first part of the statement of purpose:
This is a forum where non-Christian Seekers are encouraged to ask questions about those aspects of the Christian faith which seem hard to understand or accept, and where Christian members (see Faith groups list) can enter into discussion with them on these questions. The primary focus of this forum is Christian evangelism and discipleship, not to debate Christian Theology or challenge, attack, or argue against, Christianity. If any non-Christian member would like to challenge Christianity, they may do so in the Christian Apologetics forum. Please read and agree with this thread before posting in the Christian Apologetics forum.

Anyway, it has been an eye-opening for me to know that someone who has no interest in Christianity is doing a research on it. May I ask, what kind of research or studies are you doing and what it is for?

For the rest of the posters: You guys are such great lovers of Christ, and I have learned so much just from reading your posts. Blessings to you!

I missed the right forum but fortunately at least I am pro Christianity and not in the mode to challenge, attack, or argue against, Christianity. Maybe the next thread, I will search for the right section to post.

Actually my research on this issue started with the critique of the inherent evil and violence of Islam. Every time I pointed out the evil and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims in the name of Islam by quoting verses from the Quran, the usual counters are,
'What about Christians committing evil and violence and the OT with all its evil and violent elements, e.g. the crusades, inquisition, Salem, pedophile priests and others.

I am aware of Christ's command, 'love all and even your enemies' give your other checks, love this and that.'
Then I focused on the covenant a Christian has to establish with God.
Thus if a Christian is covenanted or contracted with Jesus/God to love even ones' enemies, there is no way Christianity or a Christian will kill and commit violence, else it is sinning against God's command.

Maybe the majority of Christians are not aware of how Muslims and others are also using Christians past evil and violence, plus violent elements in the OT [abrogated by NT] as an excuse for Muslims to do the same.

I believe ALL Christians should be more aware of the imperative covenant they have to establish with God to initiate a personal relations and thus equiped themselves an effective defense should they encounter accusations that Christianity is just as evil and violent as Islam.

I was hoping for more Christians to support and reinforced my epistemological justified views of the imperative of the covenant [explicit or implicit] but unfortunately many are not into the criticalness of the covenant.

Joyousperson · May 10, 2019

tonyt147 said:
1. Offer
2. Acceptance
3. Consideration
4. Mutual intent to enter into an agreement

1. The offer is eternal life.
2. The acceptance is the fact that no human can produce eternal life by moral living and by practicing love on their own.
3. You consider the faithfulness of God in carrying out what he said he will do according to his words.
4. You fully trust in God's promise and publicly confess Jesus of Nazareth to bear witness to the truth about Jesus and to publicly prove to God's enemies that you value his truth over your own life.

Here is a list of the truth about Jesus of Nazareth written by his apostles in the Bible.

Jesus of Nazareth was with God before all created things has existed and he was God.
Jesus of Nazareth came to earth from heaven and he became a human being.
Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Jewish Messiah who died for the sins of the whole world.
Jesus of Nazareth is risen from the dead and he is now with God in heaven.
Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God and only he is to be considered God beside his Father for all times.
Jesus of Nazareth is the only Lord and Savior of all people at all times.
Jesus of Nazareth is now drawing all people to himself to save them from the Devil and his demons.
Jesus of Nazareth is the only way to God for all people at all times.

The first six statements pertains to faith. The last two statements pertains to grace. You need both to be saved.

Disclaimer: God's grace is not for everyone. You can deny yourself of God's grace by how you lived in the past. Some damage can be fix while other is permanent as in all physical illness. Here is a list of permenant damage to one's souls.

1. Water Re-baptism in the name of Jesus Christ or in the name of the Father and The Son And the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 4:1-6, Hebrew 6-10)
2. God’s judgement by death; he is judging that person as if he/she is a murder (Roman 6:23, Genesis 9:5, 1 John 3:14-15, Acts 5:1-11).
3. Suicide (Roman 6:23, Genesis 9:5, 1 John 3:14-15).
4. Murder (Roman 6:23, Genesis 9:5, 1 John 3:14-15).

And you can't come back from breaking a contract with Jesus of Nazareth as I have previously stated.

Noted your above points.

Whilst it may not be explicit.
The contract or covenant with Christ would be broken if say a Christian subsequently for some reason become a serial genocide killer after each repentance and ending killing more than 10 million people. In this case a serious terms of the covenant is broken.

If God or Jesus were to forgive such a person it would set a very bad precedent for other genocidal people and evil people to follow, i.e. psychopaths can feast on killing people and then repent and ask for forgiveness every time till his last days on Earth.

A covenant or contract with Christ/God is critical and genuine Christians who comply with the covenanted terms need not worry even if they unintentionally committed lesser sins that are forgivable.

Joyousperson · May 10, 2019

bling said:
This non-Christian behavior at least at the time was not Christ like and most people would agree.

“Believing in Christ” means more than just intellectually acknowledging Christ’s existence, as scripture says the demons believed (but they were not Christians).

God judges the hearts of people and does not go by some written listing, which we cannot see the person’s heart, but over time a person’s enter desires will come out.

Christians can and do make mistakes, but the motive behind the error is extremely important which is very hard to determine. Paul when he was Saul persecuted and killed Christians, but thought he was doing God’s will. The persecution was wrong (sin) but the motive was good so Saul had a clear conscience about it. Doing some bad or not doing something good you can and should do and knowing it is really bad.

My point is, to be a Christian a person must establish a binding relationship with Christ and God via a covenant [contract] and abide to the covenanted terms laid out by God via Christ.
Do you agree with this point?

When a Christian abides by the covenanted terms [as stipulated in the Gospels, expounded in the epistles, acts and relevant verses in the OT], the Christian will certainly do all the good things that you described above.

As I had stated many of the covenanted terms are ideals and God knowing humans are fallible had allowed for mistakes and sins provided the Christians had done their best and had no premeditated intentions to commit evil like genocide or other serious evil repeatedly.

Joyousperson · May 10, 2019

Tone said:
So, is this how you see it?:

Acceptance: Emotional appeal

Agreement: Intellectual assent

Consideration: Existential union

?

In the secular, most of the contracts are made rationally and objective after weighing the cost and mutual benefit of the terms. It has to be done on a voluntarily basis as any element of coercion or emotional threat will void a contract in the eyes of the law.

I believe the acceptance and agreement with consideration of the covenant between a Christian and God is done on a rational and objective basis to the best of one'a ability. God made the offer and the critical terms are laid open thus the Christian has the choice to enter into the contract voluntarily.

Btw, a Christian have the option to opt out of the covenant to be a Muslim, atheist or other religionists and many has done that.

But the critical point is, to be a Christian, the covenant is imperative.

Joyousperson · May 10, 2019

Tone said:
Why are you a Christian?

That thread ^ may also help you to see that being a Christian is more than any logical formula...it is our testimonies...some of mine is post #47 of that thread.

Revelation 12
"10And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—he who accuses them day and night before our God. 11They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; and they did not love their lives so as to shy away from death. "

It not merely a logical procedure but it require a commitment from one's whole being.

The covenant is critical to initiate a binding agreement between the Christian and God and thereafter the Christian must abide by the covenanted terms.
Once a Christian abide the covenant, the testimony will follow.

If the person had any testimony experiences [dreams, visions, hearings, etc] prior to becoming a Christian, the covenant is still needed to confirm one is a genuine Christian.

Btw, you mentioned a pacifist muslim in another post. A person could be doing all the good things like a Christian is doing, but these acts could be related to Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, and other religions.
To confirm one is a Christian and not a follower of another religion, the Christian must establish the covenant with the specific Christian God to abide by the specific covenanted terms of Christianity.

I scanned the link 'Why Are You a Christian' however I noted there is no mention of the imperative covenant.

Is there any thread in here discussing the covenant?

My point is once a Christian recognized the critical that s/he had entered into a covenant to establish a binding relationship with Christ/God, then one is assured of the path to salvation and all good things to come provided one abides by the covenanted terms to the best one one's ability and be ready to repent upon any natural human forgivable sins.

Tone · May 10, 2019

Joyousperson said:
I was hoping for more Christians to support and reinforced my epistemological justified views of the imperative of the covenant [explicit or implicit] but unfortunately many are not into the criticalness of the covenant.

Joyousperson said:
I believe the acceptance and agreement with consideration of the covenant between a Christian and God is done on a rational and objective basis to the best of one'a ability.

I think the resistance you are sensing from us stems from our hesitance to endorse any contract that does not involve the Holy Spirit. Yes, you have identified a salvific law, if you will (or contract), but this term has certain negative connotations. What you are aware of is the letter of the law, but we want to make sure that you are aware of the Spirit of the law, as well.

"In Matthew 5:20-44, Christ showed that obeying the “letter of the Law” is a matter of physical action, whereas obeying the “spirit of the Law” requires more than just outward actions—it also involves an attitude of the mind—referred to by the Apostle Paul as “circumcision of the heart” (Rom. 2:28-29).

For example, Christ showed that to merely refrain from adultery is obedience to the “letter of the Law,” but to obey both the spirit and letter of the Law, one must also exercise self-control (“temperance”–Gal. 5:23), and not even lust after someone (committing “adultery in his heart”).

Another example (not mentioned by Christ in Matt. 5) is in the keeping of the Sabbath Day. To merely “remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy” (Ex. 20:8), “not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together” (Heb. 10:25), is in obedience to the letter of the Law. But to also rejoice in the Sabbath and call it a “delight” (Isa. 58:13) is keeping the spirit of the Law, as God intends. This principle applies to all of God’s laws."
What is the meaning of the “spirit of the Law,” vs. the “letter of the Law”?

Simply put, when we are born of the Spirit, it's not a matter of us having to do this or that, because this still implies that we are burdened by obligation. Rather, it is a state of us wanting to, not just refrain from murdering, or sexual immorality, or lying, etc..., but to instead give life, be faithful in all things, and spread the truth (even if we suffer for it) to all.

In other words, you are sensing our desire to share that being a Christian is so much more than what can be done at any corporate business meeting. But, I do understand, that for your research purposes, the fullness of our experience is unnecessary, but please understand our viewpoint as well. Thank you.

Tone · May 10, 2019

Joyousperson said:
I scanned the link 'Why Are You a Christian' however I noted there is no mention of the imperative covenant.

Is there any thread in here discussing the covenant?

My point is once a Christian recognized the critical that s/he had entered into a covenant to establish a binding relationship with Christ/God, then one is assured of the path to salvation and all good things to come provided one abides by the covenanted terms to the best one one's ability and be ready to repent upon any natural human forgivable sins.

Well, any time you read that the gospel messaged was preached, this is speaking of the person hearing the "offer", as you say, so in that sense they are mentioning the "imperative covenant".

for example:

Tone said:
I heard the gospel message for the first time, at least, without willfully hardening my heart to its pull...and I walked up to the front of that church and raised my hands in surrender and the Spirit Breathed Life into me and I was being renewed daily, with thoughts that were not my own and a wisdom and an understanding that I knew did not originate from my foolish mind...and miracles were happening everyday and I had the joy of my salvation...and all my shame and guilt and the hardness melted away as I was able to do what I knew was right without the fear of what people thought about me...

There you have the offer, the acceptance, the agreement, and the consideration. Of course, you don't know all this at the time, because you are not educated in contract law...it's simply your testimony.

* After this, I have undergone many years of study and ministry, but the most defining element of what makes me a "Christian" is the Breath of the Creator birthing my new life in Him.

Joyousperson · May 10, 2019

Tone said:
I think the resistance you are sensing from us stems from our hesitance to endorse any contract that does not involve the Holy Spirit. Yes, you have identified a salvific law, if you will (or contract), but this term has certain negative connotations. What you are aware of is the letter of the law, but we want to make sure that you are aware of the Spirit of the law, as well.

"In Matthew 5:20-44, Christ showed that obeying the “letter of the Law” is a matter of physical action, whereas obeying the “spirit of the Law” requires more than just outward actions—it also involves an attitude of the mind—referred to by the Apostle Paul as “circumcision of the heart” (Rom. 2:28-29).

For example, Christ showed that to merely refrain from adultery is obedience to the “letter of the Law,” but to obey both the spirit and letter of the Law, one must also exercise self-control (“temperance”–Gal. 5:23), and not even lust after someone (committing “adultery in his heart”).

Another example (not mentioned by Christ in Matt. 5) is in the keeping of the Sabbath Day. To merely “remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy” (Ex. 20:8), “not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together” (Heb. 10:25), is in obedience to the letter of the Law. But to also rejoice in the Sabbath and call it a “delight” (Isa. 58:13) is keeping the spirit of the Law, as God intends. This principle applies to all of God’s laws."
What is the meaning of the “spirit of the Law,” vs. the “letter of the Law”?

Simply put, when we are born of the Spirit, it's not a matter of us having to do this or that, because this still implies that we are burdened by obligation. Rather, it is a state of us wanting to, not just refrain from murdering, or sexual immorality, or lying, etc..., but to instead give life, be faithful in all things, and spread the truth (even if we suffer for it) to all.

In other words, you are sensing our desire to share that being a Christian is so much more than what can be done at any corporate business meeting. But, I do understand, that for your research purposes, the fullness of our experience is unnecessary, but please understand our viewpoint as well. Thank you.

I agree the term 'contract' do have a negative connotation, but unfortunately it is necessary as an analogy to explain the principles involved. But those who understand the principle can stick to the term covenant.

I believe the covenant is fundamental but the covenant will imply the need for reverence and the holy spirit.

I am not an expert in the full Biblical verses, but I believe there are verses that promote reverence and higher commitment to abide by the covenanted terms, e.g.
29 Bible verses about Reverence To God

The point is a Christian cannot cheat his way by showing reverence and high commitment to the covenanted terms superficially since God is omnipresent and all-knowing.
In this case, a Christian will have to develop his degree of reverence and divine duty via various means recommended in the book.

Joyousperson · May 10, 2019

Tone said:
Well, any time you read that the gospel messaged was preached, this is speaking of the person hearing the "offer", as you say, so in that sense they are mentioning the "imperative covenant".

for example:

There you have the offer, the acceptance, the agreement, and the consideration. Of course, you don't know all this at the time, because you are not educated in contract law...it's simply your testimony.

* After this, I have undergone many years of study and ministry, but the most defining element of what makes me a "Christian" is the Breath of the Creator birthing my new life in Him.

The point here, the above is a personal view and thus very subjective.
In this case, any one who had such feelings can claimed the same and who is to judge whether one are right or not.
Thus when you divert and reduce all the above experience into the imperative covenant, then everything fit in without room for doubts as who are you as a Christian.

There are many cases of people having direct experiences with the holy spirit, Jesus, or God but 90% of the time, but eventually they establish the covenant via baptism.
Baptism - Wikipedia
Note baptism is merely the ritual and form, what is critical is the covenant [implied or explicit].

Peter J Barban · May 10, 2019

tonyt147 said:
It

It seems like the general public have an almost "cultic" view on Christianity from what you are describing. Almost as if you became one of those "groupies" who stomp on other people's moral value as soon as you wear the Jesus Badge. Of course I'm speaking out of my ass on this one. Maybe they just have poor personal experiences with professing Christians.

I know I'm really probing right now but did your unchristian friends/family/roommate ever told you why they have prejudices against those who associates with Christian's in general? I'm just curious.

My mother was a traditional Catholic, who literally trusted the Church more than she trusted Jesus or the Bible. My father was an atheist who hated Christianity but had to agree to raise his kids Catholic in order to marry my mother. So, my mother saw me as leaving the truth for a Protestant lie and my father thought I was insane. My three younger brothers saw me a bully for trying to talk to them about God. Not one of them has ever let me share the gospel with them or give my testimony.

My roommate and dormmates were basically hedonists out to have a good time before joining the "real world". Even the Catholics would boast of parting late Saturday night and going to church on Sunday with a hangover. They did not want to be reminded of their sins. Not that I preached morality to them. My mere presence was enough. As the Bible says:

"And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." 2 Corinthians 318

Just living with someone who increasingly reflects the glory of the Lord is very difficult if you are an enemy of Christ.

bling · May 10, 2019

Joyousperson said:
My point is, to be a Christian a person must establish a binding relationship with Christ and God via a covenant [contract] and abide to the covenanted terms laid out by God via Christ.
Do you agree with this point?

No not really. The “binding relationship” is one of “Child to Parent relationship”. The Parent does take on tons of responsibility as a Parent, including providing a wonderful inheritance and providing an indwelling Holy Spirit. The Child just has to no leave the family and go back to being part of satan’s family giving up his/her inheritance.

Joyousperson said:
When a Christian abides by the covenanted terms [as stipulated in the Gospels, expounded in the epistles, acts and relevant verses in the OT], the Christian will certainly do all the good things that you described above.

“Abiding by”, just means not walking away.

Joyousperson said:
As I had stated many of the covenanted terms are ideals and God knowing humans are fallible had allowed for mistakes and sins provided the Christians had done their best and had no premeditated intentions to commit evil like genocide or other serious evil repeatedly.

There is no “doing your best”, but just freely using the gifts given. The main thing is not to bury the gifts, since not use the gifts will result in them losing value for the Christian to the point, he/she does not care about these gifts and likes the pleasures of sin to the point of not even caring for the gifts.

Tone · May 10, 2019

Joyousperson said:
I am not an expert in the full Biblical verses, but I believe there are verses that promote reverence and higher commitment to abide by the covenanted terms, e.g.
29 Bible verses about Reverence To God

Yes, the fear of the LORD (YHVH) is the beginning of Wisdom:

Proverbs 9:10
"10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."

And this is a gift:

Isaiah 11:2
"2The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him— the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and strength, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. "

This is the Ruach ha Kodesh (Holy Breath of Yah) that we receive, it is a Baptism.

Joyousperson said:
The point is a Christian cannot cheat his way by showing reverence and high commitment to the covenanted terms superficially since God is omnipresent and all-knowing.
In this case, a Christian will have to develop his degree of reverence and divine duty via various means recommended in the book.

Correct, the Christian must be born again...all else is cheating. We must have the Spirit of Messiah abiding in us.

Tone · May 10, 2019

Joyousperson said:
The point here, the above is a personal view and thus very subjective.
In this case, any one who had such feelings can claimed the same and who is to judge whether one are right or not.

Well, yeah, it is a personal experience...so I guess you can say it is subjective, but it is objective towards the One you are relating with. This is where the Bible comes in; we measure our experience with what is objectively revealed in Scripture.

Joyousperson said:
Thus when you divert and reduce all the above experience into the imperative covenant, then everything fit in without room for doubts as who are you as a Christian.

People may always doubt a relationship between two other people (say between me and "God"), but who really knows? But yes, there are things in behavior that people may point to, especially, as they line up with or contradict Scripture, and make preliminary judgments. But, this is not always advisable:

Matthew 7:2
"1 Do not judge, or you will be judged. 2 For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Joyousperson said:
There are many cases of people having direct experiences with the holy spirit, Jesus, or God but 90% of the time, but eventually they establish the covenant via baptism.
Baptism - Wikipedia
Note baptism is merely the ritual and form, what is critical is the covenant [implied or explicit].

Yes, water baptism is a good follow up, as a public testimony to the Spirit's work.

BNR32FAN · May 10, 2019

Joyousperson said:
Yes, Christ gave commandments and advice, but how do are you obligated to abide by the commandments if there is no covenant/agreement [aka contract] established in the first place?

Therefore instead of arguing indirectly why not get to the essence and stand on firm footing, i.e. a solid rock [the covenant] to counter whatever accusations Christians are thrown with by others.

Well he also gave ultimatums pertaining to the punishment of disobedience as well. I would say His threats are pretty direct. What we’re talking about here is defending Christianity against the sinful actions of those claiming to be a Christian. So I don’t think you can get more direct than quoting Jesus Himself refuting these actions and explaining how someone can identify Christian behavior. If a person or groups behavior does not reflect or are contradictory to His teachings then it is evident that they are not representing Christ.

Who is a Christian?

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"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

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"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

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"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

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