Crumpled Clothes on Sidewalk after Rapture?

tranquil

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I agree the rapture is not referred to in Daniel 9. But what is in Daniel 9 is the confirming of the covenant for 7 years. That's what sets the countdown to Jesus's return in Revelation 19.

The rapture is a separate issue from Daniel 7 and Daniel 9.

It might take place before the 7 years begin. Or it may not.

When the rapture does have to happen is before the beginning of the Day of Lord which is triggered by the Antichrist by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

Sometime, in the middle of the 7 years, around 3 years into it.

This is my problem with the '70th week' idea: the confirming of the covenant occurs at the 2nd woe/ start of the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses. The 2 witnesses are the 2 anointed ones (Revelation 11:4 = Zechariah 4:11-14 which are Zerubabbel & 'Yeshua' (aka Joshua, same as 'Jesus'). These 2 are building the temple that the man of sin will sit in and call himself God 1264 days later at the 7th Trumpet.

The end of the 2nd woe is the 7th Trumpet & the start of the kingdom of God/ heaven which is simultaneous with the beast that is coming up from the abyss for 1260 days in Rev 13.

As to the OP, of course there is no whisked away rapture, people are physically gathered. But the problem is that this notion of being whisked away exists at all. In other words, this false notion exists for a reason - to deceive. In pop culture, it is the 'beam me up Scottie' of Star Trek or being sucked up into a UFO; which really amounts to the same thing.

From a Frankenstein movie

rapturefrankenstein.png


from the x-men movie, Age of Apocalypse, geddit?
rapturexmen.png


from a Natl Geographic 'documentary' about alien invasions
rapture4.png


from a Transformers movie
transformers rapture.png

transformers rapture2.png


from Skyline
skyline.png
 
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Blade

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Jesus left.. went to make us a home..so where He is we will be. He is coming to get His own. This is written. He will come and to some it will be as a thief. See Christ is no thief. See Christ will come take what is HIS and no one will know He came.

We that love Him will never see His wrath. So you live each day for HIM. You expect Him in the moment He gave you! Right now.. is when Christ will come.. and you will never miss Him. You were never promised tomorrow. So have FAITH in the day you were given!
 
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Douggg

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This is my problem with the '70th week' idea: the confirming of the covenant occurs at the 2nd woe/ start of the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses.
You are misunderstanding the timing of the woes. Those do not trigger the beginning of the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years.

There is nothing in the text of Revelation referring to the confirmation of the covenant.

The confirmation of the covenant for 7 years is solely in Daniel9 as far as the 70 weeks is concerned.

Confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years is in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, a law that Moses made of all future leaders of Israel. It is a perceptual requirement Moses made. But must be made from the place of God's choosing. Which the Jews take to be the temple mount.
 
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Dale

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I agree the rapture is not referred to in Daniel 9. But what is in Daniel 9 is the confirming of the covenant for 7 years. That's what sets the countdown to Jesus's return in Revelation 19.

The rapture is a separate issue from Daniel 7 and Daniel 9.

It might take place before the 7 years begin. Or it may not.

When the rapture does have to happen is before the beginning of the Day of Lord which is triggered by the Antichrist by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

Sometime, in the middle of the 7 years, around 3 years into it.



Dougg, you say that the Antichrist will go into the Temple. Right now there is no Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Enormous changes would have to take place before one could be built. The Temple Mount is administered by the Waqf, a committee of Moslem religious authorities.

While some Jews would like to rebuild the Temple, others are indifferent or even opposed to the project. Most Jews in Israel are heavily secular. There are religious parties in the Israeli Parliament but rebuilding the Temple isn't even part of their platform. The movement to rebuild the Temple is politically insignificant.

If your picture of the end times depends on the Temple being rebuilt, and a resumption of animal sacrifice, we don't know when it will happen or whether it will happen at all.

I am wondering if it is possible that whatever sacrilege the Antichrist is going to commit will simply happen on the Temple Mount, on the site of the Temple, not in a functioning Temple.
 
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Douggg

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Dougg, you say that the Antichrist will go into the Temple. Right now there is no Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Enormous changes would have to take place before one could be built. The Temple Mount is administered by the Waqf, a committee of Moslem religious authorities.

While some Jews would like to rebuild the Temple, others are indifferent or even opposed to the project. Most Jews in Israel are heavily secular. There are religious parties in the Israeli Parliament but rebuilding the Temple isn't even part of their platform. The movement to rebuild the Temple is politically insignificant.

If your picture of the end times depends on the Temple being rebuilt, and a resumption of animal sacrifice, we don't know when it will happen or whether it will happen at all.

I am wondering if it is possible that whatever sacrilege the Antichrist is going to commit will simply happen on the Temple Mount, on the site of the Temple, not in a functioning Temple.
Here's something you can count on, Dale, with 100% absolute certainty.

The 7 years begin right after the Gog/Magog event. Because in Ezekiel 39:21-29, 7 years later, it is Jesus Himself speaking in the text, having returned to earth and recounting the past 2000 years.

From that, there are a couple of options that might take place - regarding a temple.

1. It could be built beside the Dome of the Rock - one theory.
2. If not, it could be built, as a downsized minimum size, right after Gog/Magog, in order to expedite resumption of the animal sacrifices, on the premise that the grander size would be finished later.

Right now, we just don't know which option (or another option, I have not considered) will take place.

The Antichrist is basically the King of Israel - "Anti", instead of and against Jesus, the rightful king of Israel.

Following Gog/Magog, the Jews will think the prince who shall come, is their messiah, and that person will be anointed the King of Israel. That's what actually makes him the Antichrist.

So envision all of those things to take place following Gog/Magog. Which a lot of the players are posturing over there right now.
 
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Dale

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Jesus warned us to not be deceived.
Seems that quite a few have been taken in by the false teachings of a 'rapture to heaven', before anything bad happens down here.

They think they are good enough to go to heaven before any Judgment. Jesus will Judge the nations at His Return, Matthew 25:31-34, and God will Judge everyone who has ever lived after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

Two proofs refute the 'rapture' -
Jesus said such a thing was impossible; John 3:13, John 8:21-23, John 7:34, John 17:15, Revelation 5:10, +
We are told that God's people will be on earth during the end times. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7
And what it is that the Lord requires of us; To stand firm in our faith, being His witnesses and His Light to the nations. John 5:27, Matthew 5:14-16


Keras, perhaps the most significant and straighforward of the verses that demonstrate that the "rapture" is a false notion is John 17:5.

Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsemane:

15 I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one.[a]
John 17:15 Or from evil
--John 17:15 RSV


15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
--John 17:15 NIV


Jesus does NOT ask God the Father to take Christians out of this world.

Instead, He asks God the Father to protect Christians from the wiles of the Devil.
 
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Dale

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What begins the 7 years is the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9:27 by the Antichrist.

A pre-trib rapture is not what begins the 7 years. The rapture could take place today, but the 7 years may not begin until years later.

So, irrespective of the day the rapture takes place, it will be possible to know within a couple of days of when Jesus returns once the 7 years begin - because the confirmation of the covenant is the countdown start.

Not only that, but 45 days before Jesus returns, the entire world will see Jesus before the throne of God in the third heaven. It what causes the kings of the earth to assemble their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus, to keep Him from executing judgment on them.



Dougg: << Not only that, but 45 days before Jesus returns, the entire world will see Jesus before the throne of God in the third heaven. It what causes the kings of the earth to assemble their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus, to keep Him from executing judgment on them. >>



How did you reach the conclusion that the entire world would see Jesus before the Second Coming? Still less know exactly when this happens? You say that the armies come to Armageddon to fight Jesus. No, they don't know that Jesus is about to return. The armies assemble at Armageddon to destroy Israel.
 
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Douggg

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How did you reach the conclusion that the entire world would see Jesus before the Second Coming? Still less know exactly when this happens? You say that the armies come to Armageddon to fight Jesus. No, they don't know that Jesus is about to return. The armies assemble at Armageddon to destroy Israel.
Dale, in Revelation 16, the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

That they are gathered to make war on Jesus is in Revelation 19. It is in the text.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

___________________________________________________________________

They know that Jesus is coming to execute judgement on the them because right at the end to the 7 years, in Revelation 6, the sixth seal, the cosmos parts like a scroll and the world sees Jesus before the throne of God.

They know his appearance is about His wrath (the wrath of the Lamb) because in
Revelation 19, his garments are drenched in blood. The blood of the saints in Revelation 6, the fifth seal, who appeal for Him to avenge their deaths, martyred for their testimony of Him, and for not worshiping the beast, nor taking his name, number, or mark of his name.

Which when that happens, the evil men of the world are terrorized, because they are the guilty ones; and in Revelation 16, the beast, the false prophet, and Satan have to convince them to make war on Jesus.

It is also in Psalms 2 of why do the heathen rage and imagine a vain thing?

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

In Revelation 19, Jesus returns with his army, i.e. the saints and the holy angels. So they try to destroy them returning with Jesus, as well.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

______________________________________________________________________

The parting of the cosmos in Revelation 6, the sixth seal, and the world seeing Jesus in heaven, right before he returns, is the sign of the Son of Man in heaven in Matthew 24.

The armies of the world then gather together over a period of 45 days. Then Jesus and his heavenly host descend down to earth; the beast and false prophet cast into the lake of fire, the armies gathered to fight against Jesus and his army destroyed, and Satan bound and cast into the bottomless pit.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
__________________________________________________________________

The destruction of the armies gathered to fight Jesus is in Ezekiel 39:17-20, corresponding to Revelation 19:17-18. Which is how we can know for 100% concrete certainty that the 7 years follow the Gog/Magog event.
 
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_Dave_

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15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
--John 17:15 NIV

Jesus does NOT ask God the Father to take Christians out of this world.

Instead, He asks God the Father to protect Christians from the wiles of the Devil.

Here we have a perfect example of why not to take a singular verse out of context, isolate it from context-sensitive pronoun antecedents in preceding verses, and obfuscate the purpose for the spoken words; which ultimately results in the formulation of a false doctrine.

From John 17:15, we have to go all the way back to verse 6 to determine the antecedents to the pronouns throughout the rest of Jesus' prayer. Virtually every Bible commentary on John 17 agrees that this is a prayer by Jesus for the protection of the men, His disciples, whom He had traveled and witnessed with during his three years of ministry.

There is nothing in John 17 to indicate that the intention of Jesus' prayer is to refute His and others' teachings elsewhere about the catching up of the church before the seven years tribulation.

To illustrate this point I'll substitute "my disciples" everywhere the pronoun appears in Jesus' prayer:

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men (my disciples) which thou gavest me out of the world: thine my disciples were, and thou gavest my disciples me; and my disciples have kept thy word.

7 Now my disciples have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto my disciples the words which thou gavest me; and my disciples have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and my disciples have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for my disciples: I pray not for the world, but for my disciples which thou hast given me; for my disciples are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in my disciples.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but my disciples are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name my disciples whom thou hast given me, that my disciples may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with my disciples in the world, I kept my disciples in thy name: my disciples that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of my disciples is lost, but the son of perdition (Judas); that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that my disciples might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given my disciples thy word; and the world hath hated my disciples, because my disciples are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take my disciples out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep my disciples from the evil.

16 My disciples are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify my disciples through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent my disciples into the world.

19 And for my disciples' sakes I sanctify myself, that my disciples also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for my disciples alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given my disciples; that my disciples may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in my disciples, and thou in me, that my disciples may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved my disciples, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that my disciples also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that my disciples may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and my disciples have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto my disciples thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in my disciples, and I in my disciples.
Some interesting points:

Jesus mentions His disciples 40 times in this short prayer. Can anybody really read this passage and not agree that this is a prayer by Jesus for his disciples?

One giveaway nailing down that this is a prayer for the disciples is when Jesus names, by name in verse 12, one of the disciples. "... none of them (my disciples) is lost, but the son of perdition (Judas) ..."

Another interesting little surprise in this passage that I only just now noticed is that this prayer is actually in support of the rapture. Notice what Jesus says in verse 24, "Father, I will that my disciples also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that my disciples may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

Hmmm. That sounds suspiciously like Jesus is looking forward to the time He will meet them in Heaven.

So, in summary, Jesus is praying for the protection of the men, His disciples, who He will shortly be leaving behind. In its proper context, and with proper interpretation, Verses 14 and 15 are Jesus saying that He knows the world will hate His disciples as they go forward with their ministry, and He asks God to protect them from evil people so they can perform their witnessing.

Like I said, virtually every Bible commentary agrees with this. Any other interpretation is an extreme example of eisegesis instead of correct and proper exegesis.

I know that the minds of the "antis" won't be changed by this post, but I do hope to reach those who are still willing to learn, and forestall any leanings toward false doctrine.
 
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tranquil

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Here we have a perfect example of why not to take a singular verse out of context, isolate it from context-sensitive pronoun antecedents in preceding verses, and obfuscate the purpose for the spoken words; which ultimately results in the formulation of a false doctrine.

From John 17:15, we have to go all the way back to verse 6 to determine the antecedents to the pronouns throughout the rest of Jesus' prayer. Virtually every Bible commentary on John 17 agrees that this is a prayer by Jesus for the protection of the men, His disciples, whom He had traveled and witnessed with during his three years of ministry.

There is nothing in John 17 to indicate that the intention of Jesus' prayer is to refute His and others' teachings elsewhere about the catching up of the church before the seven years tribulation.

To illustrate this point I'll substitute "my disciples" everywhere the pronoun appears in Jesus' prayer:

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men (my disciples) which thou gavest me out of the world: thine my disciples were, and thou gavest my disciples me; and my disciples have kept thy word.

7 Now my disciples have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto my disciples the words which thou gavest me; and my disciples have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and my disciples have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for my disciples: I pray not for the world, but for my disciples which thou hast given me; for my disciples are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in my disciples.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but my disciples are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name my disciples whom thou hast given me, that my disciples may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with my disciples in the world, I kept my disciples in thy name: my disciples that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of my disciples is lost, but the son of perdition (Judas); that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that my disciples might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given my disciples thy word; and the world hath hated my disciples, because my disciples are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take my disciples out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep my disciples from the evil.

16 My disciples are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify my disciples through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent my disciples into the world.

19 And for my disciples' sakes I sanctify myself, that my disciples also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for my disciples alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given my disciples; that my disciples may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in my disciples, and thou in me, that my disciples may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved my disciples, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that my disciples also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that my disciples may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and my disciples have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto my disciples thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in my disciples, and I in my disciples.
Some interesting points:

Jesus mentions His disciples 40 times in this short prayer. Can anybody really read this passage and not agree that this is a prayer by Jesus for his disciples?

One giveaway nailing down that this is a prayer for the disciples is when Jesus names, by name in verse 12, one of the disciples. "... none of them (my disciples) is lost, but the son of perdition (Judas) ..."

Another interesting little surprise in this passage that I only just now noticed is that this prayer is actually in support of the rapture. Notice what Jesus says in verse 24, "Father, I will that my disciples also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that my disciples may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

Hmmm. That sounds suspiciously like Jesus is looking forward to the time He will meet them in Heaven.

So, in summary, Jesus is praying for the protection of the men, His disciples, who He will shortly be leaving behind. In its proper context, and with proper interpretation, Verses 14 and 15 are Jesus saying that He knows the world will hate His disciples as they go forward with their ministry, and He asks God to protect them from evil people so they can perform their witnessing.

Like I said, virtually every Bible commentary agrees with this. Any other interpretation is an extreme example of eisegesis instead of correct and proper exegesis.

I know that the minds of the "antis" won't be changed by this post, but I do hope to reach those who are still willing to learn, and forestall any leanings toward false doctrine.

Christians are 'His disciples'.

Matthew 28:19-20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
 
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_Dave_

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Christians are 'His disciples'.

Matthew 28:19-20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

What you say is true. But, in context, that is not who Jesus was specifically praying for in John 17. He is praying for specific men of his acquaintance during a specific period of time, even naming one of them specifically.

The antis offer many verses trying to disprove the rapture that are arguably debatable, but their insistence on using John 17 is simply without any foundation. It just simply does not mean what they claim it does.
 
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tranquil

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You are misunderstanding the timing of the woes. Those do not trigger the beginning of the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years.

There is nothing in the text of Revelation referring to the confirmation of the covenant.

The confirmation of the covenant for 7 years is solely in Daniel9 as far as the 70 weeks is concerned.

Confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years is in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, a law that Moses made of all future leaders of Israel. It is a perceptual requirement Moses made. But must be made from the place of God's choosing. Which the Jews take to be the temple mount.

Apologies to the OP

How am I misunderstanding the timing of the woes?

Revelation is explaining Daniel 9

Dan 9:26
And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing.

And the people of the prince who is to come

1) shall destroy the city

2) and the sanctuary.

3) Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.​

The prince to come destroys the city = Jerusalem = Matthew 24:15-16's people of Judea seeing the abomination in the holy place. The 'burning mountain' of the 2nd Trumpet is an explicit reference to the fall of Babylon from Jeremiah 51:25. (Possibly Jerusalem = Mystery Babylon)

The prince to come destroys the sanctuary = 6th Trumpet/ Revelation 9
13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur.​

That '200 million man army' is an explicit reference to Psalm 68:17 The chariots of God are tens of thousands—thousands of thousands are they; the Lord is in His sanctuary as He was at Sinai.

The 'flood' is refers to 'the people of the prince to come' who will destroy/ take over the city & sanctuary. The 5th Trumpet is 5 months long. Why? Because the flood of Noah was 5 months long (Genesis 7:11 & Genesis 7:24) (Iyar 17 through Tishri 17)

The flood that ushers in the kingdom of God (Matthew 24:37-39) at the 7th Trumpet is Iyar 17 through Tishri 17. (subtract 1264 days of the 2 witnesses to get Kislev 24, the day that Zerubabbel & Joshua lay the foundation for the temple (Haggai 2:18)

The man of sin's flood in the 5th Trumpet 5 months is imitating the ushering in of the kingdom of God, taking over the city then the sanctuary. After the city & sanctuary have been taken with his 'flood', then the man of sin makes the covenant at the 2nd woe.

The 7 bowls of wrath occur because that covenant was broken, after the 1260 days: see Leviticus 28:18
And if in spite of this you will not listen to me, then I will discipline you again sevenfold for your sins,

The 7 Trumpets are punishment for the abomination worship at the start of the 6th Seal (Matthew 24:15-21). The false prophet of Rev 13 abomination triggers the 7 bowls of wrath punishments. 2 different floods.
 
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tranquil

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What you say is true. But, in context, that is not who Jesus was specifically praying for in John 17. He is praying for specific men of his acquaintance during a specific period of time, even naming one of them specifically.

The antis offer many verses trying to disprove the rapture that are arguably debatable, but their insistence on using John 17 is simply without any foundation. It just simply does not mean what they claim it does.

So Jesus only wanted 12 people protected from the evil one. Got it.
 
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_Dave_

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So Jesus only wanted 12 people protected from the evil one. Got it.
Not necessary to be snarky. OK?

Praying for specific people does not mean you wish harm on everybody else who you are not praying for. I pray for my son daily as he does his tour in Afghanistan, but it certainly does not mean that I intend ill will to everybody else not mentioned in my prayers. Right?
 
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Dale

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Jesus left.. went to make us a home..so where He is we will be. He is coming to get His own. This is written. He will come and to some it will be as a thief. See Christ is no thief. See Christ will come take what is HIS and no one will know He came.

We that love Him will never see His wrath. So you live each day for HIM. You expect Him in the moment He gave you! Right now.. is when Christ will come.. and you will never miss Him. You were never promised tomorrow. So have FAITH in the day you were given!


Blade,

There are seven verses in the NT where Christ comes as a thief. You seem to think that Christ will come to take what is His, that is, Christians. The actual meaning of these passages is that Christ will come suddenly, at a time when very few are expecting Him. The thief comes when the homeowner isn't expecting a thief. So Christ will come when very few are honoring Him, when most think that Jesus Christ is a thing of the past.
 
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tranquil

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Not necessary to be snarky. OK?

Praying for specific people does not mean you wish harm on everybody else who you are not praying for. I pray for my son daily as he does his tour in Afghanistan, but it certainly does not mean that I intend ill will to everybody else not mentioned in my prayers. Right?

2 Corinthians 12
1I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—​

the 'caught up' here is the 'harpazo', the magic whisked away rapture word.

He is saying he doesn't know if he was 'whisked away' or if he had a spiritual experience.

Yet, all of the 'experts' insist that this word 'harpazo' means 'whisked away' when Paul himself doesn't insist that it means that!

Which meaning seems more reasonable? Especially when Jesus himself prayed for the disciples to be protected from the evil one & that no disciples were to be 'whisked away'?
 
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_Dave_

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Which meaning seems more reasonable? Especially when Jesus himself prayed for the disciples to be protected from the evil one & that no disciples were to be 'whisked away'?

I'm not sure I understand your question. My original entry into this topic was a post to respond to a statement by Dale:

15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
--John 17:15 NIV

Jesus does NOT ask God the Father to take Christians out of this world.

Instead, He asks God the Father to protect Christians from the wiles of the Devil.
... where I said that Jesus was praying specifically for His disciples for His disciples' specific protection during His disciples' ministry. There is nothing in this passage indicating that Jesus meant it to be a doctrinal statement refuting the future catching up of the church.

And the "take them" in verse 15 is not the same word used for catching up elsewhere. In that verse, the word is airo, which is distinctly different from harpazo. So, again, no rapture view in mind.

Like I said, there are other Scripture passages that could be used to banter back and forth debating the rapture, but this passage has nothing of the sort to offer. Virtually every Bible commentary on John 17 takes the passage at its intended meaning -- a prayer by Jesus specifically for the disciples whom He knows He will soon be leaving. It just can't be made more clear.

So, I'm baffled why a very small minority keeps bringing it up as proof against the rapture.
 
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Dale

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The explanation is simple. It's because it doesn't happen that way.

Think of it like this:

In the accounts of Christ's ascension in Luke 24:50-51 and Acts 1:9-11 why don't the observers register their horror at seeing His manhood waving in the breeze as He ascends into the clouds?

It's simply because Christ was fully clothed.

It's a mistake, and unfair, to criticize the doctrinal beliefs on a whole group of believers based on some fictional, popular novels or movies.



Again, those are your words and shouldn't be interpolated to the beliefs of others.



The "know not the time nor the hour" quote from Jesus refers to the rapture, not to His second coming. There are no signs precedent to the rapture; lots of signs leading up to his second coming. It's what Revelation is all about.

"If this were true, as soon as the Rapture happened, anyone, including those who oppose Jesus Christ, could calculate the time of the Second Coming."

Absolutely.

God has made it very clear in Revelation when He announced the timing of the second coming from an absolute starting point to the end.

He says the second coming will be 3 1/2 years, 42 months or 1,260 days from the beginning of the Great Tribulation in the middle of the seven years when the antichrist breaks his covenant with Israel and sets up the abomination of desolation in the temple.

God breaks it down to the exact day. And you can believe that the Jews in Israel will know the exact day when this begins as they experience the horror, once again, of an evil ruler desecrating the most Holy of Holies.

It needs to be noted too, that nobody claims to know exactly how long a period of time there is between the rapture and when the seven years start. It could be immediately, and it could be 30 years later.

What we do know for sure is that the second coming countdown starts midway through the seven years after an indisputable horrific act by the antichrist. In other words, it will be like, "Today, CNN brings you video of the desecration ..." Then 1,260 days later Christ comes back.


Dave,

This is the first time I have seen anyone associate the Rapture with the Ascension of Jesus. Can you name one commentator who agrees with you on this? Can you name one commentator who says that Christians will be Raptured fully clothed?


You say that I am criticizing too harshly. I've read books by Dispensationalists and I can't even define what Dispensationalism is except to say that it's a real mess.
 
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Dale

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Here we have a perfect example of why not to take a singular verse out of context, isolate it from context-sensitive pronoun antecedents in preceding verses, and obfuscate the purpose for the spoken words; which ultimately results in the formulation of a false doctrine.

From John 17:15, we have to go all the way back to verse 6 to determine the antecedents to the pronouns throughout the rest of Jesus' prayer. Virtually every Bible commentary on John 17 agrees that this is a prayer by Jesus for the protection of the men, His disciples, whom He had traveled and witnessed with during his three years of ministry.

There is nothing in John 17 to indicate that the intention of Jesus' prayer is to refute His and others' teachings elsewhere about the catching up of the church before the seven years tribulation.

To illustrate this point I'll substitute "my disciples" everywhere the pronoun appears in Jesus' prayer:

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men (my disciples) which thou gavest me out of the world: thine my disciples were, and thou gavest my disciples me; and my disciples have kept thy word.

7 Now my disciples have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto my disciples the words which thou gavest me; and my disciples have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and my disciples have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for my disciples: I pray not for the world, but for my disciples which thou hast given me; for my disciples are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in my disciples.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but my disciples are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name my disciples whom thou hast given me, that my disciples may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with my disciples in the world, I kept my disciples in thy name: my disciples that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of my disciples is lost, but the son of perdition (Judas); that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that my disciples might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given my disciples thy word; and the world hath hated my disciples, because my disciples are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take my disciples out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep my disciples from the evil.

16 My disciples are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify my disciples through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent my disciples into the world.

19 And for my disciples' sakes I sanctify myself, that my disciples also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for my disciples alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given my disciples; that my disciples may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in my disciples, and thou in me, that my disciples may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved my disciples, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that my disciples also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that my disciples may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and my disciples have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto my disciples thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in my disciples, and I in my disciples.
Some interesting points:

Jesus mentions His disciples 40 times in this short prayer. Can anybody really read this passage and not agree that this is a prayer by Jesus for his disciples?

One giveaway nailing down that this is a prayer for the disciples is when Jesus names, by name in verse 12, one of the disciples. "... none of them (my disciples) is lost, but the son of perdition (Judas) ..."

Another interesting little surprise in this passage that I only just now noticed is that this prayer is actually in support of the rapture. Notice what Jesus says in verse 24, "Father, I will that my disciples also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that my disciples may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

Hmmm. That sounds suspiciously like Jesus is looking forward to the time He will meet them in Heaven.

So, in summary, Jesus is praying for the protection of the men, His disciples, who He will shortly be leaving behind. In its proper context, and with proper interpretation, Verses 14 and 15 are Jesus saying that He knows the world will hate His disciples as they go forward with their ministry, and He asks God to protect them from evil people so they can perform their witnessing.

Like I said, virtually every Bible commentary agrees with this. Any other interpretation is an extreme example of eisegesis instead of correct and proper exegesis.

I know that the minds of the "antis" won't be changed by this post, but I do hope to reach those who are still willing to learn, and forestall any leanings toward false doctrine.



Dave, let me explain why I see John 17 differently.

I got these points from enduringword.com.

<< 1. (20) Jesus broadens the scope of His prayer.

I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;” >>

Jesus starts off praying for the Apostles and other disciples of the time but broadens it to all "who will believe in Me".

<< i. Job and Moses and Elijah and Jonah all prayed that they would be taken out of the world, but God did not answer. He also wants us to stay in the world, to complete the work He gives us to do.

e. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one: Jesus definitely wanted us to be in the world, but He did not want us to be evil, or marked by the evil one. Jesus didn’t pray that we would be taken out of the battle, but that we would be strengthened and protected in it. >>


From studylight.org:

<< (i) The first essential is to note that Jesus did not pray that his disciples should be taken out of this world. He never prayed that they might find escape; he prayed that they might find victory. The kind of Christianity which buries itself in a monastery or a convent would not have seemed Christianity to Jesus at all. The kind of Christianity which finds its essence in prayer and meditation and in a life withdrawn from the world, would have seemed to him a sadly truncated version of the faith he died to bring. He insisted that it was in the rough and tumble of life that a man must live out his Christianity. >>



<< Christianity was never meant to withdraw a man from life, but to equip him better for it. It does not offer us release from problems, but a way to solve them. It does not offer us an easy peace, but a triumphant warfare. It does not offer us a life in which troubles are escaped and evaded, but a life in which troubles are faced and conquered. However much it may be true that the Christian is not of the world, it remains true that it is within the world that his Christianity must be lived out. He must never desire to abandon the world, but always desire to win it. >>


Link to Enduring Word
John Chapter 17

Link to Studylight
John 17 Commentary - William Barclay's Daily Study Bible
 
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_Dave_

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This is the first time I have seen anyone associate the Rapture with the Ascension of Jesus. Can you name one commentator who agrees with you on this? Can you name one commentator who says that Christians will be Raptured fully clothed?

Dale, I was merely responding to your original post where you said:

A number of movies based on the idea of a future Rapture show crumpled clothes on a sidewalk or other places after the person disappears.

It strikes me that no such image appears in the Bible. There are no images of crumpled, abandoned clothes in unexpected places ...

And my reply was basically to agree with you by coming up with an example of someone ascending into the clouds apparently fully clothed. It was never my intention to draw you, or anybody else, into a debate comparing Christ's ascension to the rapture.

I haven't done a study of commentators about the issue of nakedness in heaven. But every time anybody is mentioned in heaven -- saints, angels, etc., -- they are always described as being garbed in robes. Common sense says that the raptured will be so too.
 
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