Halbhh

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I think the point I was leading to is there is no difference between how one is saved whether competent or incompetent. We are saved by God's Grace.

A baby or even unborn baby or mentally handicapped adult in most cases cannot comprehend Law and Grace. Does that mean they get a special way of obtaining reconciliation with God? No they are saved just as we are by God's Grace. None of our works save us. God initiates the call to salvation. It's by Grace alone we are saved.

Yet some babies do unfortunately die. I asked why do they if Adam's sin is not imputed to them? They die because the wages of sin is death. We all die whether at conception or a long elderly life. We do because of Adam's disobedience.

Yet....."But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." (Ephesians 2:4-10)
I'd be unsurprised to learn we agree very widely in many things -- such as what you said here, preaching to the choir -- once we get past assumptions about what the other person believes. :)
 
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Kenny'sID

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How many do you need? Sin came as the result of, 'many died by the trespass of the one man' (Rom. 5:15), 'judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation' (Rom. 5:16), the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man (Rom. 5:17), 'just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men' (Rom. 5:18), 'through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners' (Rom. 5:19).

Not many at all, a single clear verse will do nicely.
 
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Kenny'sID

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I'll just take the first verse there that you feel defends your stance:

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men,

Why would you leave out the last three words of that scripture, those being "because all sinned" the words that add so much clarity to the verse? Very telling on how you all are drawing such a conclusion

There is no indication there, that we are guilty of Adams sin, none whatsoever. All that tells me is a precedent was set. The penalty for sin was death for Adam, and that fact spreads to all men so the penalty for the sin of those who came after Adam is also death "because all sinned".

God told Adam that he would surely die if he sinned, just as he did, so now the precedent is set, we all die for our sin. at the very least, that verse strongly indicates that, while it indicates nothing for defense of us being guilty for Adams sin.

Think I'll stick with with what makes good sense to me over the several scriptures that somehow mean what they do you you/others.

This is a lot like when OSAS piles a ton of scripture into their post in order to back their position and none of it says to me/others, what it says to them.

A pile of scripture that lends no help to your stance, doesn't equal a single one that does.
 
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redleghunter

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I'll just take the first verse there that you feel defends your stance:



Why would you leave out the last three words of that scripture, those being "because all sinned" the words that add so much clarity to the verse? Very telling on how you all are drawing such a conclusion

There is no indication there, that we are guilty of Adams sin, none whatsoever. All that tells me is a precedent was set. The penalty for sin was death for Adam, and that fact spreads to all men so the penalty for the sin of those who came after Adam is also death "because all sinned".

God told Adam that he would surely die if he sinned, just as he did, so now the precedent is set, we all die for our sin. at the very least, that verse strongly indicates that, while it indicates nothing for defense of us being guilty for Adams sin.

Think I'll stick with with what makes good sense to me over the several scriptures that somehow mean what they do you you/others.

This is a lot like when OSAS piles a ton of scripture into their post in order to back their position and none of it says to me/others, what it says to them.

A pile of scripture that lends no help to your stance, doesn't equal a single one that does.
Now the rest of the passage....
 
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redleghunter

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Think I'll stick with with what makes good sense to me over the several scriptures that somehow mean what they do you you/others.
Romans 5:12-21 is brutally clear within context and the very same passage. The chapters leading up to and following support we are condemned in Adam.

Verse 15: by the transgression of the onethe many died

Verse 16: the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation

Verse 17: by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one

Verse 18: through one transgressionthere resulted condemnation to all men

This is a lot like when OSAS piles a ton of scripture into their post in order to back their position and none of it says to me/others, what it says to them.

A pile of scripture that lends no help to your stance, doesn't equal a single one that does.
Yes you would have a valid point if I took you through a magical mystery tour of the Bible to conjure up several verses from different covenants and different contexts. But I did not.

And I would say as an aside...”that’s a wee bit the grass calling the clover green Patrick.”
 
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mark kennedy

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Not many at all, a single clear verse will do nicely.
But four in the same chapter saying the same thing are easily dismissed. It's called circular logic, no matter how it's answered just repeat the question.
 
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redleghunter

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@redleghunter

Did you see my question on 2 Thessalonians 2:3? Do you have any thoughts on how (or if) that relates to Judas?
Don’t think this refers to Judas as he died. But the spirit of antichrist we know has always been at work.

But this may be interesting:

Luke 22: NASB

3Then Satan entered Judas Iscariot, who was one of the Twelve.
 
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MDC

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I'll just take the first verse there that you feel defends your stance:



Why would you leave out the last three words of that scripture, those being "because all sinned" the words that add so much clarity to the verse? Very telling on how you all are drawing such a conclusion

There is no indication there, that we are guilty of Adams sin, none whatsoever. All that tells me is a precedent was set. The penalty for sin was death for Adam, and that fact spreads to all men so the penalty for the sin of those who came after Adam is also death "because all sinned".

God told Adam that he would surely die if he sinned, just as he did, so now the precedent is set, we all die for our sin. at the very least, that verse strongly indicates that, while it indicates nothing for defense of us being guilty for Adams sin.

Think I'll stick with with what makes good sense to me over the several scriptures that somehow mean what they do you you/others.

This is a lot like when OSAS piles a ton of scripture into their post in order to back their position and none of it says to me/others, what it says to them.

A pile of scripture that lends no help to your stance, doesn't equal a single one that does.
For since by man came death.. For as in Adam all die.. 1 Corinthians 15:21-22. Death comes as the consequence of the guilt of sin. All die in Adam including infants and young children because of his sin. Explain why infants and young children die if they aren’t under the guilt of Adams sin. And not only die but are born with a sin nature
 
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The Righterzpen

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Don’t think this refers to Judas as he died. But the spirit of antichrist we know has always been at work.

But this may be interesting:

Luke 22: NASB

3Then Satan entered Judas Iscariot, who was one of the Twelve.

I went looking at 2 Thessalonians 2 a little more closely in both Blue Letter Bible and Bible hub. (both having Greek annotations) and I've come to the conclusion that passage (or at least that portion of it) isn't talking about the second coming. It's talking about the coming of the Kingdom in the preaching of the gospel and the dismantling of the Old Testament system.

Verse 4 talks about the son of perdition apposing and exhausting himself against God so that he sits in the temple as if he is God.

Now back in Luke 22:5-6 speaks of a pact made between Judas and the leaders. King James uses the term "covenant" Verse 6 said Judas "promised". In the Greek though, that phraseology was used in conjunction to acknowledge that one (the one making the promise) owes a debt to the other.

Now in Matthew 26:15 "covenanted" is also used in the King James English, but it's a different word in Matthew than in Luke. in Matthew the word means "to measure out" or "count" (30 pieces of silver).

So basically what these passages are saying is that this was a legal contract, as far as both parties were concerned and that Judas was obligated to uphold his end of the contract.

Now when Judas brings this money back to the leaders. Their answer is "see to the matter yourself". Now what gets really interesting, is when Pilate washes his hands of "Any further shedding of this man's blood". He uses the same phrase the priests said to Judas. "See to this matter yourselves." ("Understand what this means to you"; is another nuance of the possibility of the translation.) And the people declare: "May His blood be upon us and our children."

Now there's another verse in the Old Testament (I think it's in Jeremiah; but I have to do some more searching.) It talks about the nation making a covenant with evil that will fail. Their intent was to avoid the judgement of God falling upon them; so they make this pact with Satan - basically.

And that is exactly what had commenced by the time we get to 2 Thessalonians. This epistle was written in the early 50's; which the skirmishes that would become the Roman Jewish wars had already commenced.

Then in verse 5 he says: Remember, I already told you this. Then it seems to me he goes on to explain that this will be the state of things (which will manifest with lying signs and wonders) the closer to the end we get.

I'll search for that verse. It might take me a day or so. I have an eye doctor appointment tomorrow and how well I'll be able to see afterwards is another question. LOL

Anyways, interesting things to string together.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Romans 5:12-21 is brutally clear within context and the very same passage. The chapters leading up to and following support we are condemned in Adam.

Verse 15: by the transgression of the onethe many died

Verse 16: the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation

Verse 17: by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one

Verse 18: through one transgressionthere resulted condemnation to all men


Yes you would have a valid point if I took you through a magical mystery tour of the Bible to conjure up several verses from different covenants and different contexts. But I did not.

And I would say as an aside...”that’s a wee bit the grass calling the clover green Patrick.”

But four in the same chapter saying the same thing are easily dismissed. It's called circular logic, no matter how it's answered just repeat the question.

I'm not seeing anything there that changes my mind.

or since by man came death.. For as in Adam all die

That's only to say, just like Adam, all die, nothing more. "As in" is a term that basically states " just like" so, Just like Adam all die. That's the only way that can possibly read to me. It far from means we are punished because of one mans sin, and I'll explain.

All die in Adam including infants and young children because of his sin. Explain why infants and young children die if they aren’t under the guilt of Adams sin. And not only die but are born with a sin nature

Good question, and the most possibly viable reason thus far to back the OP's point, nothing else has come close.

Young children and babies will sin, God knew that, and he couldn't very well put every individual into a Garden and wait for them to sin, then sentence each and every one of us to death individually, repeating the process until everyone earned their death sentence. And from what you say about baby's and children having not sinned, that repeating of the process just mentioned, though not a realistic option, would be the only fair alternative so we end up with how God chose to deal with it.

We aren't punished for Adams sin but now that God knows all men would sin their own sin (and he was right) he chose to take care of it the way it is now.
 
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mark kennedy

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I'm not seeing anything there that changes my mind.
That doesn't change the meaning of the text.


That's only to say, just like Adam, all die, nothing more. "As in" is a term that basically states " just like" so, Just like Adam all die.

That's the only way that can possibly read to me. It far from means we are punished because of one mans sin,
In Adam all sinned, just like in Abraham Levi paid tithes to Melkezidek (Hebrews 7:9). 400 times Adam's name is used synonomously with humanity, the way the Jews are called Israel after their father Jacob.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I don't know how many ways Romans 5:12-21 can be read other than Paul repeats himself in upwards echelon making it crystal clear.

The one sin of Adam we all suffer the consequences of that condemnation. It is evidenced that we all die. You do acknowledge above we suffer from the fallen condition. Yes this as well as "all have sinned."

1. Adam, as the head of the human race, caused every person after him to be born into a fallen condition or sinful state. This effect of Adam’s sin is known as original sin and is often referred to as inherited sin. All human beings have inherited a sinful nature through Adam’s original act of disobedience (Romans 5:12–14).

2. In addition to receiving a fallen nature, all people who came after Adam have been credited with the guilt of Adam’s sin (Romans 5:18). That is the meaning of imputed sin. An imputation is an attribution or a crediting of something. Imputed sin is Adam’s guilt attributed to or credited to us. All humans are counted as having sinned in Adam and thus deserving the same punishment for sin as Adam. Imputed sin affects our standing before God (we are guilty, condemned), whereas original sin affects our character (we are morally ruined). Both original and imputed sin make us subject to God’s judgment.

The penalty for sin is death. We are subject to spiritual death, or separation from God in this present life, due to imputed sin: “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath” (Ephesians 2:1–3). If we persist in this state of separation from God, the result is the second death, which is eternal (Revelation 20:11–15).

Physical death is also a penalty for imputed sin: “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12). The guilt of Adam’s sin was directly charged or imputed to the whole human family so that all people are now subject to death (Romans 6:23).

The apostle Paul teaches imputed sin in various passages: “The many died by the trespass of the one man,” “One trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,” “Through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners” (Romans 5:15, 18, 19), and “In Adam all die” (1 Corinthians 15:22).

More
Got Questions.
Right.


I'm not going to debate this too much since it has nothing to do with our salvation or God's character.

I did show you how the idea of O.S. changed with Augustine and how even the catholic church no longer accepts his theory.

I'd like to look at some of the verses you posted.

Romans 5:12-21
When Adam sinned, sin entered into the human race...it caused death...real death. Physical, and also spiritual death.

Persons were sinning after that, from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, but God did not judge those persons guilty for breaking His laws because He had not yet given the Law. So when their bodies died it was NOT for their own sin because they had never disobeyed God about not eating the forbidden fruit. Then Paul goes on to contrast this with the work of Jesus.

If anything, this disproves what you believe.

Ephesians 2:1-3
This just says that we are born with the sin nature, just as I've stated. And that we all sin because of it...but it's speaking about our individual sins.
I do not see in these verses anything about our being guilty of Adam's sin.

Romans 6:23
OUR sins are the cause of death...Paul is speaking to the Gentiles of Rome. Again, no talk of our personal guilt for Adam's sin.

When Paul speaks about our dying for the sin of one...he is speaking that we are suffering from the effect of Adam's sin...he never says that we are personally responsible.
 
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GodsGrace101

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The dead who are children of wrath (Ephesians chapter 2) have no desire to be saved. That's all of us...until God makes us alive together with Jesus Christ (same chapter).
IF God makes us alive together with Jesus it means that we wanted to be made alive.

What does the following scripture mean to you?
It states that John wrote his gospel so that believing we may have life in Jesus' name.

The believing comes first.
THEN the life in Jesus.

John 20:31
30Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.



Yes the Gospel is preached to all. Many are called (the Gospel), few are chosen.

Are you advocating Universalism or something else?[/QUOTE]
Please, that's such an old song I'm not responding to it.

We have to love
John 3:16 which clears up any thought of universalism

16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Unfortunately even small children die. Why is that?
WHAT are you asking?
Anyone could die.
It's a result of Adam's Sin, or O.S.

Children are also born with the sin nature.
But if they die they DO NOT go to hell because they have NOT committed any personal sin.

God is a just God.
We are held responsible only for OUR sins.

Do you believe if a child dies he goes to hell?
 
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GodsGrace101

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Yet, the word "you" in Romans 2:4 is in the singular. Look it up on Biblehub.com or some other help tool that shows the grammatical notations. The entire passage is in the singular except where the word is "they", "them" or "sins".

So, to put it bluntly. You're wrong. It is addressing the single person who the goodness of God leads them to repentance.
Paul is addressing a single person in his letter to the Christians in Rome?

Could you supply the name of that person?

Scholars always believed the letter of Romans is to the Gentile Christians in Rome. If you have more detailed information, it would be good to know.

As to the singular....Paul is speaking to EVERY MAN OF YOU WHO PASSES JUDGEMENT, Romans 2:1

And in verse 3....DO YOU SUPPOSE THIS, OF MAN...

It's a way of speaking...Paul is speaking to everyone who reads his letter.



Not everyone will be punished; only those who are atoned for will escape the judgement of God. Yet that does not negate the fact that even those who are atoned for should be condemned. Matter of fact, Christ was condemned in their stead. That's what the atonement was about.
Here is who will be atoned for and who will not be atoned for:

John 3:17-21
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

When we're born we are already judged...we are lost.
He who HAS believed in the name of the Son will be saved.

Please not that the belief comes first,,,
and then the salvation.

He who comes to the light
so that his deeds may be manifested
as having b een wrought in God.

First he comes to the light.
THEN the deeds are manifested.


So you believe you are righteous enough for God? Is that what you are saying here?
First of all, please quote my entire statement otherwise it sounds differently than how I meant it.

And yes, I believe I am righteous enough for God for I live IN CHRIST.
Romans 3:22

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
 
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GodsGrace101

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So which comes first the chicken or the egg?

Do you follow the law to get to God, or do you follow the law because God got to you?

Yet if He hasn't quickened a person and opened their eyes, they aint ever going to find the strait gate!

How can you know God's love and not believe you are worthy of His wrath? How does that fact escape you? What are you saved from?
You believe in a wrathful God.
Jesus is the purest revelation of God we'll ever have.
He was not a wrathful God..He showed us God's love in that He even went to the cross to save us.

All the other questions above have been answered in my last post to you.

Belief comes first.
Then comes salvation due to that belief.

God is a God that loves His creation and would want that ALL be saved, IF they would accept His terms:

1. Understand we are a sinner.
2. Understand that Jesus died for us.
3. Believe in God/Jesus for our salvation.
4. Do as God asks of us and obey Him.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
 
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GodsGrace101

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You raise another good point here. In the context of those being made alive unto God; obviously those dead in sin, don't talk to God. I know the Scripture says that if we hide our sin; God doesn't hear our prayers. Extrapolated from that - He obviously doesn't hear the prayers of anyone who's unrepentant.

This raises an interesting dichotomy. If God obviously sees that their prayers aren't actually to Him; who are they really praying to? I guess logically, the only other option would be Satan (idol worship). And here is where I suppose the rubber meets the road. The unregenerate, when confronted with the truth of God; what ever format that takes - even someone on the Internet quoting to them the Scripture verses they don't want to pay attention to - God is proving to them in their own condemnation their own rebellion. For they won't come to the light because they love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil.

Interestingly, in years past I always thought along the lines of "Oh those poor souls, they just can't see." But it's more profound than that, because their rebellion is actively anti-God. You know I've run into atheists who at least on the surface are honest enough to say: "Well, I don't know because I don't know the Bible that well."

Whereas those who are religious, yet still unredeemed are like trying to heard cats. When they are confronted directly with Bible verses that contradict what they are saying and it's clear to even a "neutral" observer who "won the argument" so to speak. They won't ever admit it - it's like trying to nail down Jello.

At that point they do one of three things:
1. They'll personally attack you.
2. They'll refuse to engage / answer.
3. Or they'll cling tenaciously to their point like a child with their hands over their ears. (La la la - I can't hear you - you're not there.)

I tend to find people who are teachable / willing to learn are rather rare in "Christendom".
Funny post.
Are YOU wiling to learn?
Or do you cover your ears??
 
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GodsGrace101

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@redleghunter

Did you see my question on 2 Thessalonians 2:3? Do you have any thoughts on how (or if) that relates to Judas?
2 Thessalonians 2:3 has nothing to do with Judas.

It's speaking about the Son of Perdition...THE Anti-Christ.

The one who must come before the world ends.

You're thinking of John 17:12 which did apply to Judas Iscariot.
 
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