How to verify prophets?

Athée said:

Hey all,

A friendly atheist here with a quick question.

I was thinking today about prophecy and I seem to recall believing (may years ago now) that in order to be a true prophet of God, it had to be the case that every prophecy made, would come to pass.

Is that what you believe?

If that is the case, any time there is a "not yet accomplished" prophecy in the Bible, does that mean that you are withholding judgement on whether or not the speaker of the prophecy is actually a true prophet of God? Does this apply to Jesus and his pronouncement of future things?

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Here are the OT verses by which prophesy is judged:

"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst." - Deuteronomy 13:1-5

"But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.' And if you say in your heart, 'How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?'-- when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him." - Deuteronomy 18:20-22


The OT prophets that have end-of-the-world predictions were canonized, in part because they passed the first test. If it's in the Bible, I don't have a reason to doubt it as prophesy. Now, these verses are good for dealing with the kinds of people that just wanted to make names for themselves. Such people tend to make hasty prophesies, like the world will end in 5 years, or there will be a tsunami off the coast of California next year. If a prophet makes a short-term prophesy, that's an easy way to falsify his claims. You clearly can't use that as a metric with end-of-the-world predictions, since we can't expect those to come true until the end of the world.

ViaCrucis said:

I'm approaching this from a more historical, traditional Christian point of view. The gift of prophecy we see mentioned in the New Testament isn't really about someone being a seer or something like that, but rather prophecy here is perhaps in some ways better understood as preaching or proclamation. Prophecy is about proclaiming the word of God.

If we take a step further back and ask what exactly was it that the ancient prophets of Israel doing, the answer to that is that they were proclaiming God's word. It's easy to think that a prophet is a "fore-teller", but a more accurate understanding is that a prophet is a "forth-teller", that is, to speak forth and proclaim something, in this case "the word of the LORD" as it is often called in the Old Testament. Much of the prophetic ministry of the ancient prophets had almost nothing to do with talking about what would happen in the future, but about what was happening then. The prophets were tasked with calling God's people away from their faithlessness and back to faithfulness. That's why the prophets condemned the rich and powerful for abusing the poor and the hungry, it's why they condemned idolatry and a return to right worship of God. It also meant speaking judgment against wickedness, and also speaking promise to those suffering.

That sense of speaking forth God's word, to speak truth in the present--that's the gift of prophecy. And it doesn't mean speaking "special" truth, like "God told me to tell you"; not that. It is simply the preaching and proclamation of what God has already said. So this gift is exercised regularly in churches around the world, often through the pastor who often is the one exercising the preaching of the word.

The idea of special classes of Christians is one of the very things that is condemned in the New Testament by St. Paul, especially in his first letter to the Corinthians. There is no special class of Christians called "prophets".

-CryptoLutheran

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Agabus predicted a famine, that was not just forthtelling.

Athée said:

Hey all,

A friendly atheist here with a quick question.

I was thinking today about prophecy and I seem to recall believing (may years ago now) that in order to be a true prophet of God, it had to be the case that every prophecy made, would come to pass.

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God granting a prophecy (fore-telling) to come to pass is for authenticating an eyewitness publicly such that his account of testimony can be formally written as part of the Bible. Mostly if it's not all so. Fore-telling type prophecies primarily serve the purpose of confirming God's messages.

Along with the completion of the Bible, this kind of prophesying may not be needed. That's a still a chance this kind of prophets may be sent when the end coming near that God may need to authenticate certain prophets publicly again.

Athée said:

Hey all,

A friendly atheist here with a quick question.

I was thinking today about prophecy and I seem to recall believing (may years ago now) that in order to be a true prophet of God, it had to be the case that every prophecy made, would come to pass.

Is that what you believe?

If that is the case, any time there is a "not yet accomplished" prophecy in the Bible, does that mean that you are withholding judgement on whether or not the speaker of the prophecy is actually a true prophet of God? Does this apply to Jesus and his pronouncement of future things?

This is not a trap attempt and I won't be following up your answers with a bunch of acerbic comments about special pleading etc. I'm just generally interested in how mature Christians think about this idea that popped into my mind while I was making crosses out of Rice Krispy for the kiddos' Easter celebration at church tomorrow

Peace
Athee

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A christian must accept the entire bible as truth. So the bible itself has to either be accepted or condemned so for instance, you cannot say well what the prophet Amos said came to pass, but what the prophet John said hasn't happened yet so i will reserve judgement on John. Thi sis because the speaker or writer of any prophecy in the bible is only relaying what God told him. So when you look at the bible and you see prophecies that have come to pass it gives you confidence that what has not come to pass will indeed come to pass.

Now I could get more technical and say that there are 2 main types of prophecies, definitely and conditional. Definitely prophecies would be like the second coming of Christ. Conditional prophecies are prophecies that state what will happen if a condition is met or not met. For instance, Jonah told the people of Nineveh that if they did not repent God would destroy the city. They repented and was apred. That is a conditional prophecy. There are many of both prophecies in the bible.

Carl Emerson said:

Act 21:10

Eph 4:11

How does this opinion sit with these scriptures? What do you mean by 'special classes' ?

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

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There are different expressions of Christian ministry. So, for example, we recognize that the apostolic ministry has been received and retained in the pastors of the Church (historically in the form of Apostolic Succession). All vocation is ministry in the Church, however, but for good order we recognize that the Office of the Keys is exercised by those whom the Church has called and ordained as bishops and presbyters (i.e. pastors); this doesn't mean, however, that clergy are a different class of Christian. The distinction between clergy and laity isn't a spiritual or ontological distinction, it's really more of a pragmatic one.

By "special classes" I mean that there is no kind of stratification in the Church. All Christians share in the royal priesthood of the Church, as such we don't have a distinction between the common people and some class of hiereus (the Greek word for "priest"); in fact the English word "priest" itself comes from a derivation of the Latin presbyter, the transliteration of the Greek presbyteros often translated as "elder" in English. The etymology of "priest" comes from the now archaic prester, from presbyter, from presbyteros. What the Church doesn't have is special hiereis, "priests", who act as special "middle men" between mortals and the divine. The only concept of hiereus the Church has is the universal and royal hierateuma (priesthood) of all the Faithful. More prominent I suppose is the important point that the Church, in truth, only has one Priest, our Great High Priest Jesus Christ. That also means that we don't have some special "class" of Christians who are "prophets", or some other special class who are "this" or "that". The prophetic ministry of the Church is exercised in many ways, usually through the simple preaching of God's word which, as a fundamental part of the Office of the Keys, we usually reserve to those pastors that the Church has called and ordained to that vocation. Though obviously preaching isn't limited to pastors, as lay preaching has been part of the basic fabric of the Church since the beginning.

Simply put, anyone today who goes around calling themselves a "prophet" is either misguided or a charlatan, in either case my simple rule with self-declared prophets is to ignore them completely and go the other way. That doesn't mean I deny the prophetic role of the Church in proclaiming the word of God, and I think there have been some people in history that have lived in such a way that we could say that they filled a kind of prophetic vocation, for example some of the Desert Fathers or Fools-for-Christ. In modern times I tend to see Martin Luther King, Jr. as having filled a necessary prophetic vocation as a voice crying out for justice for the oppressed.

-CryptoLutheran

Would you like to respond to the two scriptures please...

Acts 21:10

Eph 24:11

Carl Emerson said:

Would you like to respond to the two scriptures please...

Acts 21:10

Eph 24:11

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I was pretty sure I did. At the very least I thought I addressed Ephesians 4:11 fairly straightforwardly,

There are different expressions of Christian ministry. So, for example, we recognize that the apostolic ministry has been received and retained in the pastors of the Church (historically in the form of Apostolic Succession). All vocation is ministry in the Church, however, but for good order we recognize that the Office of the Keys is exercised by those whom the Church has called and ordained as bishops and presbyters (i.e. pastors); this doesn't mean, however, that clergy are a different class of Christian. The distinction between clergy and laity isn't a spiritual or ontological distinction, it's really more of a pragmatic one.

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As far as Acts 21:10?

I suspect when I mentioned that the chief point of the prophets as being forth-telling rather than fore-telling it came across as though they never did any fore-telling. Not quite my point; perhaps I should clarify. There absolutely were times, many times, when the prophets spoke of future things, sometimes in absolute ways and sometimes in conditional ways, ("this will happen" vs "this will happen if or unless"), words of judgment, words of promise, words of warning, etc; but these things were part of their general prophetic ministry to God's people.

I guess I'm not sure how this particular case with the figure of Agabus undermines my overall point.

-CryptoLutheran

You said "Simply put, anyone today who goes around calling themselves a "prophet" is either misguided or a charlatan..."

I raised the case of Agabus who scripture records was a prophet. (Acts 21:10)

Are you suggesting we are in a different dispensation and Prophets no longer exist?

Carl Emerson said:

You said "Simply put, anyone today who goes around calling themselves a "prophet" is either misguided or a charlatan..."

I raised the case of Agabus who scripture records was a prophet. (Acts 21:10)

Are you suggesting we are in a different dispensation and Prophets no longer exist?

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I believe I did mention that I think there have been examples of prophets in the history of the Church, I specifically mentioned the Desert Fathers, the Holy Fools, and Martin Luther King, Jr.

But I absolutely stand by my remarks concerning self-declared prophets. Anyone who goes around calling themselves a prophet is, frankly, undeserving of trust.

-CryptoLutheran

So you think that it's OK to be a prophet as long as you don't claim to be?

The thing is that I can remember visiting a country town where the folks had been in prayer and felt God was saying there would be a prophetic voice visiting with a word for them.

We had a blessed time together, they were edified, I was encouraged that He saw fit to use me in this way.

I have not claimed the title Prophet but certainly have been used in this way. Personally titles don't mean much to me, just obedience and walking in His fruit.

Does this sit OK with you?

Sanoy said:

The culture of prophecy in the OT is really difficult to acquire because so little is mentioned on it. A lot did happen in the OT, sometimes God spoke through a false prophet for the purpose of bringing judgement on the king, sometimes God spoke through a non Israelite, like Balaam. Sometimes prophets were generational, and in the NT there was a whole family who prophesied. Regarding the OT prophets that have unfulfilled prophecy, they are considered by their fulfilled prophecies and the network of prophetic overlay. There is actually very little in the book of revelation that is new, it is very much a compiling from all the prophets into a single map. One example of this prophetic overlay is Hosea 13:7-8

So I will pounce on them like a lion;
like a leopard on the path I will lurk.
Like a bear robbed of her cubs, I will attack them,
and I will tear open their chests.
There I will devour them like a lion,
like a wild beast would tear them apart.

This is exactly what Daniel saw in his vision of the beasts. So another way they are verified is they all form this single picture, each having an overlay.

The first prophecy I can recall mentioned with any description is in the NT. It was a prophecy of a food shortage, and Paul began his ministry in response to that shortage by saving up food and traveling to that city. That is very different from OT prophecies. Revelation is very much like an OT prophecy, but it stands alone with no other extant prophecy like it. It's possible that Jude and Peter mention a lost prophecy regarding the apostasy that will come which sounds like a traditional prophecy.

Today Christians experience what is called "words of knowledge". These are short instances of knowledge about a person, the outcome of an event, or judgement or message from God. I have actually received one of these words of knowledge (message from God) by a much trembling complete stranger who could find no rest until she told me. When people have these words of knowledge they aren't always certain it is from God, they might be 60/40 or 80/20. They are usually very humble about it and ask "does this make sense to you", or "I feel like". Though the girl who came to me said straight up "God told me".

Paul does tell us to test these things 1 Corinthians 14:29 " Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said." That seems to imply that a prophet might be mistaken. This may be an argument from silence but there is no admonition attached here, which leads me to believe we may have a "glass darkly" situation. You can have pure light, but if it goes through a dark glass with imperfections the light will scatter. That may also explain the 60/40.

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Would you like to share a little more on your "word of knowledge" experience?

Like did you tests their spirits by asking them how they personally relates to Jesus of Nazareth? 1 Corinthians 12:3.

What denomination accepts this word of knowledge gift to be exercised within the congregation?

What are some of the most daunting things you heard people say from having this gift?

Has anyone ever pull a "thus saith Da lord" on your congregation?

PROPHECYKID said:

A christian must accept the entire bible as truth. So the bible itself has to either be accepted or condemned so for instance, you cannot say well what the prophet Amos said came to pass, but what the prophet John said hasn't happened yet so i will reserve judgement on John. Thi sis because the speaker or writer of any prophecy in the bible is only relaying what God told him. So when you look at the bible and you see prophecies that have come to pass it gives you confidence that what has not come to pass will indeed come to pass.

Now I could get more technical and say that there are 2 main types of prophecies, definitely and conditional. Definitely prophecies would be like the second coming of Christ. Conditional prophecies are prophecies that state what will happen if a condition is met or not met. For instance, Jonah told the people of Nineveh that if they did not repent God would destroy the city. They repented and was apred. That is a conditional prophecy. There are many of both prophecies in the bible.

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What is your view on the third type of prophecy where the prophet exposes the dirty secrets of their generation or a particular denomographic?

Something like this:
One of Crete's own prophets has said it: "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons" This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith. Titus 1:12-13.

Do you believe this kind of gifts is still being exercised today?

It seems the bible points to the fact that there are religious journalists or documentarians back in the day.

tonyt147 said:

Would you like to share a little more on your "word of knowledge" experience?

Like did you tests their spirits by asking them how they personally relates to Jesus of Nazareth? 1 Corinthians 12:3.

What denomination accepts this word of knowledge gift to be exercised within the congregation?

What are some of the most daunting things you heard people say from having this gift?

Has anyone ever pull a "thus saith Da lord" on your congregation?

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She came to me and said 'God has been telling me to speak this to you for weeks but I've been afraid'. I said 'It's okay, I'm a believer, what did He say? She replied "You have an intensity". I know what that means, it's not something that is observable from the outside, but something peculiar to my innermost being. What this statement means to me is that God sees what I am experiencing.

This is the only time someone has given me a word. It is typically a part of Charismatic and Pentecostal churches, but not exclusive to them. I go to a Pentecostal church but don't consider myself a part of any denomination. I am more of a "Berean", which is a term that comes form the Bereans who searched the scriptures to see if what they were hearing was true.

If you want some more examples I have a video here on the topic from a well respected Christian and philosopher of mind. Give me a sec and I'll link it in. HERE

Sanoy said:

She came to me and said 'God has been telling me to speak this to you for weeks but I've been afraid'. I said 'It's okay, I'm a believer, what did He say? She replied "You have an intensity". I know what that means, it's not something that is observable from the outside, but something peculiar to my innermost being. What this statement means to me is that God sees what I am experiencing.

This is the only time someone has given me a word. It is typically a part of Charismatic and Pentecostal churches, but not exclusive to them. I go to a Pentecostal church but don't consider myself a part of any denomination. I am more of a "Berean", which is a term that comes form the Bereans who searched the scriptures to see if what they were hearing was true.

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That [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is trippin' if what you say is true. I would've responded with, "I don't need to take a dump right now. Thank you.".

PROPHECYKID said:

Now I could get more technical and say that there are 2 main types of prophecies, definitely and conditional. Definitely prophecies would be like the second coming of Christ. Conditional prophecies are prophecies that state what will happen if a condition is met or not met. For instance, Jonah told the people of Nineveh that if they did not repent God would destroy the city. They repented and was apred. That is a conditional prophecy. There are many of both prophecies in the bible.

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Did you read the book of Jonah in the Bible ?

If so, would you quote the place where Jonah said that God would save the city if they repented?
As far as I can find in the book of Jonah in the Bible, Jonah only told them what God told Jonah to tell them - that He was going to destroy the city.
Also, I have seen several times where someone stated that Jonah preached repentance, or otherwise told the people that they needed to repent and that God would save the city if they repented. I do not at all know the origin of that teaching.

Thank you.