Amillenialism and the nation of Israel

Grip Docility

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You do not many any sense. Not even a single verse to support your nonsenses

Correct... not a “single verse”, but entire books and chapters.

So when they had come together, they asked Him, “Lord, are You restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or periods that the Father has set by His own authority.

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come on you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

After He had said this, He was taken up as they were watching, and a cloud took Him out of their sight.

While He was going, they were gazing into heaven, and suddenly two men in white clothes stood by them. They said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up into heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come in the same way that you have seen Him going into heaven.

Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called the Mount of Olives, which is near Jerusalem—a Sabbath day’s journey away.
Acts 1:4-12 - Bible Gateway passage: Acts 1:4-12 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

To be chased with Zechariah 14 and Joel 3 for starters.

No complex theological notation required or fancy eschatological Spiritualization of verses.

;)

Daniel 11:45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.

He, the anti Christ... surrounded by literal geography that correlates to Jew Hating Islamic countries... at the Holy Mountain... (Site of the original Temple of Solomon)...

Jesus is the True Temple and the Messiah of Jew and Gentile alike.

That fits. No need for the Jewish Temple to be built, as there are two Pegan temples to Allah erected there.

Can you show your interpretation by correlation scripture, geographically true to exact implied location, with actual prophetic events that are lining up?
 
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TribulationSigns

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New Body... not Israel 2.0

You are confused about how the covenant tree works.

Nothing has changed from the Pre-cross Covenant Congregation/Church to the Post-cross Covenant Congregation/Church. For example, the Covenant is a continual relationship that God has had with His people. There was an external Covenant people of God before the cross (visible nation Israel), and there is a an external Covenant people of God after the cross (visible nation Israel, which includes Gentiles). Israel is the body of Christ, wherever it is found. And there has always been a "true Church" within the external Church, Israel. In the Old, as well as in the New. In other words, the Church, and Israel, are synonymous terms with respect to God's covenant people.

Acts 7:37-38
  • "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
  • This is he, that was in the Church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:"
That "Church" Israel in the wilderness was no different from the "Church" Israel in the wilderness today (Revelation 12). It's an external body or corporate group, Children of the kingdom, within which are found the "true" Children of God, the true Israel within external Israel.

With that said,

Romans 11:17
  • "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"
Israel one tree, the Gentiles another. So grafted in among who? ...the Israel of God of course. The SAME OLIVE TREE. Not a new tree. Not a new man. For Jesus "is" Israel Himself. The same Olive tree that had branches broken off, and that Gentile branches can likewise be broken off. The witness is not mine, but Christ's.
 
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Grip Docility

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You are confused about how the covenant tree works.

Nothing has changed from the Pre-cross Covenant Congregation/Church to the Post-cross Covenant Congregation/Church. For example, the Covenant is a continual relationship that God has had with His people. There was an external Covenant people of God before the cross (visible nation Israel), and there is a an external Covenant people of God after the cross (visible nation Israel, which includes Gentiles). Israel is the body of Christ, wherever it is found. And there has always been a "true Church" within the external Church, Israel. In the Old, as well as in the New. In other words, the Church, and Israel, are synonymous terms with respect to God's covenant people.

Acts 7:37-38
  • "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
  • This is he, that was in the Church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:"
That "Church" Israel in the wilderness was no different from the "Church" Israel in the wilderness today (Revelation 12). It's an external body or corporate group, Children of the kingdom, within which are found the "true" Children of God, the true Israel within external Israel.

With that said,

Romans 11:17
  • "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"
Israel one tree, the Gentiles another. So grafted in among who? ...the Israel of God of course. The SAME OLIVE TREE. Not a new tree. Not a new man. For Jesus "is" Israel Himself. The same Olive tree that had branches broken off, and that Gentile branches can likewise be broken off. The witness is not mine, but Christ's.

Romans 11 is the go to chapter and checked against it, your work is Eisogetic at best, and deceptive at worst.

The Olive Tree is Israel. The Wild Olive Tree is the Gentiles and Jesus is the Cultivated Tree.

Note you have to add your interpretation instead of word it with exact scripture. Since your opinions aren’t canonized, your claims are clearly fallacious.

I ask, then, have they stumbled in order to fall? Absolutely not! On the contrary, by their stumbling, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. Now if their stumbling brings riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full number bring! Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. In view of the fact that I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if I can somehow make my own people jealous and save some of them. For if their rejection brings reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? Now if the firstfruits offered up are holy, so is the whole batch. And if the root is holy, so are the branches. Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree, do not brag that you are better than those branches. But if you do brag—you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. Therefore, consider God’s kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you—if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from your native wild olive and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these—the natural branches—be grafted into their own olive tree? So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
Romans 11:11-25 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 11:11-25 - Holman Christian Standard Bible
 
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TribulationSigns

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Daniel 11:45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.

He, the anti Christ... surrounded by literal geography that correlates to Jew Hating Islamic countries... at the Holy Mountain... (Site of the original Temple of Solomon)...

Jesus is the True Temple and the Messiah of Jew and Gentile alike.

That fits. No need for the Jewish Temple to be built, as there are two Pegan temples to Allah erected there.

Can you show your interpretation by correlation scripture, geographically true to exact implied location, with actual prophetic events that are lining up?

Ahh, more nonsenses with the idea of single Antichrist, Jew-hating Islamic countries, two Pagan temples to Allah, all prophecy interpretation based on "geographically"

Obviously, you do not know what covenant spiritual kingdom is like. You believe it is all about a visible nation of Israel, one supernatural man, who will pitch a physical tent upon temple mount, etc. as long as the prophecy will be fulfilled within the "geographic boundary" of the temple or Israel.

Just a bunch of speculation, not Word of God.

(rolling eyes).
 
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Grip Docility

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Ahh, more nonsenses with the idea of single Antichrist, Jew-hating Islamic countries, two Pagan temples to Allah, all prophecy interpretation based on "geographically"

Obviously, you do not know what covenant spiritual kingdom is like. You believe it is all about a visible nation of Israel, one supernatural man, who will pitch a physical tent upon temple mount, etc. as long as the prophecy will be fulfilled within the "geographic boundary" of the temple or Israel.

Just a bunch of speculation, not Word of God.

(rolling eyes).

It’s the inspired scripture, spoken through men “By The Word of God <- “reason for everything” that was With God and IS God”, that you are rolling your eyes at.

I mean, roll your eyes at me... no problem, but you have less of a response hand than cool hand Luke with that one.

Acts 1 couldn’t be more clear in parallel to Zechariah 14, yet you’re attempting to grandstand with a hand full of speculative ideas that are more convoluted than a bag of marbles cast across a map of the globe.

As for your answer? Nada.

Your geographic computations interpret the bear as Russia, most likely.

I reckon I’m not rolling my eyes but chuckling.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Romans 11 is the go to chapter and checked against it, your work is Eisogetic at best, and deceptive at worst.

The Olive Tree is Israel. The Wild Olive Tree is the Gentiles and Jesus is the Cultivated Tree.

Incorrect. Read the verses carefully:

Romans 11:16-17 KJV
[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

The Olive Tree is Covenant Israel! Some of the branches are unfaithful or external believers which was broken off. And the branches from wild tree took its place on the SAME OLIVE TREE. Therefore the Gentiles will enjoy the same root and fatness of olive tree. Not a new Tree! Selah!
 
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TribulationSigns

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Your geographic computations interpret the bear as Russia, most likely.

Me? Where did you get this idea from? I don't do things like that. Stop making a false accusation.
 
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Grip Docility

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Incorrect. Read the verses carefully:

Romans 11:16-17 KJV
[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

The Olive Tree is Covenant Israel! Some of the branches are unfaithful or external believers which was broken off. And the branches from wild tree took its place on the SAME OLIVE TREE. Therefore the Gentiles will enjoy the same root and fatness of olive tree. Not a new Tree! Selah!

The Tree is the Cultivated Tree of Jesus and the 12. Ephesians makes it abundantly clear.

A picture of an Olive Tree is earlier on in this thread.

It specifically says two bodies were made ONE, in Christ.

You already know the bam comes in when Romans 11:11-36 is exegeted in full context with Romans 9 and 10...

Supersession is a bunch of hooey that falls flat in full biblical context.

Nice try, though.
 
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Grip Docility

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Me? Where did you get this idea from? I don't do things like that. Stop making a false accusation.

Oh my, The gotcha game.

A bunch of attempts to find error followed by “eye rolling”.

False accusations.... it was more of a way of playfully responding to your eye rolling.

Sense of humor not allowed? You’re a little intense to not employ humor.
 
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Grip Docility

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I am not going to waste my time listening to your false doctrine crap where you fail to defend using with Scripture at all. You are now on my ignore list.

I can honestly say, I appreciate being on your ignored list.
 
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mkgal1

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Grip Docility said:
The BOC is not Israel.
This is a new understanding for me - but recently I've deconstructed all that I'd learned over the years about eschatology and, really, the whole New Testament narrative. This isn't an Orthodox belief (that the BOC is not Israel). Here is what the Orthodox believe:

Quoting from linked article:
The People of God: An Orthodox Perspective
by George C. Papademetriou

The concept "people of God" is based primarily on biblical presuppositions and a patristic understanding of ecclesiology. The people of God is the pleroma of the church; quahal, the congregation of God's people. The laos (people) is distinct from the ethne, or gentiles, who were engrafted into the body of Christ. The theological underpinning of the concept of the people of God in Orthodox perspective is highly dependent on the biblical understanding of God's covenant with the people of Israel and the Christian self-understanding as the new Israel.[1] So, the search for an Orthodox understanding of the concept of the "people of God" must be sought in the Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, and the patristic tradition. The present study will address the Orthodox presuppositions and understanding of the concept of the people of God, beginning with some biblical and patristic reflections.

In the Scriptures we read, "And the Lord has chosen thee this day that thou shouldest be to him a peculiar people, as he said, to keep his commands, and that thou shouldest be above all nations, as he has made thee renowned and a boast, and glorious, that thou shouldest be a holy people to the Lord thy God, as he has spoken."[2]And in another place it is stated that, "Only the Lord chose your fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you, beyond all nations, as at this day."[3]

This is the basis of the scriptural understanding of God's people where they are set apart to worship God, to obey God's commandments, and to proclaim God's truth to the whole world. The Septuagint version of the Old Testament became normative in the early church and in Orthodoxy. For that reason I am compelled to offer briefly an understanding of the Septuagint use of the laos or people.

Generally speaking, in the Septuagint, the use of laos or "people" refers specifically to Israel. This is evident in the fact that the continual recurrence of the phrase laos tou theou or "people of God" simply denotes Israel. The use of laos as people and ethnos as nation is a marked distinction in that the word laos implies God's people, whereas the ethne are the nations of the earth.[4] God separated Israel as God's "peculiar possession." They are the holy people of God by divine selection. The Scriptures declare that "Thou art a holy people to the Lord thy God [laos hagios ei kyrio to theo sou]." [5] They continue "and the Lord thy God chose thee to be to him a peculiar people beyond all nations that are upon the face of the earth [kai se proeileto Kyrios o Theos sou einai auto laon periousion para panta to ethne, osa epi prosopou tes ges]"[6] The word laos implies a possession freely chosen by Yahweh. The election of Yahweh was made out of his love.

The understanding of Israel as the people of God does not mean a naturalistic particularism. The words "And ye shall be to me a royal priesthood and a holy nation [hymeis de esesthe moi basileion hierateuma kai ethnos hagion]" imply divine choice.[7] Some Jewish interpreters are of the opinion that the "royal priesthood" is "to teach and to guide the entire human race" to call upon the name of God.[8]

The Scriptures do not intend to promote a racist view of the people of God, but, rather, to draw attention to the universal mission of Israel as the people called by God to promote holiness and show forth the way by which salvation might be found. It is not the state (ethnos) as such that enlightens the nations but God's "people" insofar as they are "obedient" and "faithful" to God. ~ The People of God: An Orthodox Perspective - Theology - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
 
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mkgal1

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I have recently taken the more amillenial view (I prefer the term postmillenial, however that has a different meaning to many these days). But I still have difficulty believing the return of the Jews to their historic land this past century has no prophetic significance. Thoughts?
I found this article today, about amillennialism and the "future" Kingdom of God:

Quoting linked article ------>
Compiled by Aaron Orendorff

A common misunderstanding about amillennialism is that “covenant theologians regard the kingdom of God as a wholly invisible and wholly present reality with no future, earthly fulfillment.” It is argued that because amillennialists have no place in their eschatological scheme for Jesus reigning upon a earthly throne in Jerusalem, they therefore by necessity have no place for an earthly, consummated kingdom. Far to the contrary, the amillennial position on the nature of God’s kingdom is that it is both a present and future reality – i.e., that it is both already-and-not-yet, inaugurated but not consummated – and that both these present and future elements of the kingdom include spiritual as well as earthly dimensions. This fulfillment, however, will not take place during a future millennial period but rather at the end of the age when Christ returns and heaven and earth are renewed. To say that because amillennialists do not affirm Christ’s earthly reign “from a throne in Jerusalem” then they cannot affirm an earthly future for God’s kingdom is to confuse a particular (premillennial) understanding of what Christ’s reign will look like with the broader category of God’s kingdom. Such an assertion would be similar to an amillennialist saying that because premillennialists do not affirm that Satan is currently bound so they cannot affirm the current, spiritual presence of God’s kingdom.

The follow excepts conclusively show that the above position is the amillennial position.

Kim Riddlebarger, A Case for Amillennialism

It should be clear from the preceding that the kingdom of God is a present reality, though it is not yet consummated. … The point that Ladd, Ridderbos and Hoekema all make is that biblical data indicates that the kingdom has both present and future elements. New Testament writers set forth a distinct tension between the present inauguration of that kingdom (the “already,” “this age”) and its future consummation (the “not yet,” and the “age to come”). … The prospect of a future kingdom demonstrates that Christ’s fulfillment of these Old Testament promises is typological of a more glorious and final kingdom yet to come. … Christ’s return is not the inauguration of a halfway step on the road to consummation called a “millennium.” Christ’s return is the consummation (112-13).


Anthony Hoekema, The Bible and the Future

Dispensationalists commonly say that we amillennialists spiritualize prophecies of this kind by understanding them as being fulfilled either in the church of this present age or in heaven in the age to come. I believe, however, that prophecies of this sort refer neither primarily to the church of this age nor to heaven, but to the new earth. The concept of the new earth is therefore of great importance for the proper approach to Old Testament prophecy. All too often, unfortunately, amillennial exegetes fail to keep biblical teaching on the new earth in mind when interpreting Old Testament prophecy. It is an impoverishment of the meaning of these passages to make them apply only to the church or to heaven. But it is also an impoverishment to make them refer to a thousand-year period preceding the final state. They must be understood as inspired descriptions of the glorious new earth God is preparing for his people (205-06).
Dispensationalists accuse us amillenarians of “spiritualizing” prophecies of this sort so as to miss their real meaning. John F. Walvoord, for example, says, “The many promises made to Israel are given one two treatments [by Amillennialists]. By the traditional Augustinian amillennialism, these promise are transferred by spiritualized interpretation to the church. The church today is the true Israel and inherits the promise which Israel lost in rejecting Christ. The other, more modern type of amillennialism hold that the promises of righteousness, peace and security are poetic pictures of heaven and fulfilled in heaven, not on earth.” On a later page, after quoting and referring to a number of prophetic passages about the future of the earth, Walvoord goes on to say, “By no theological alchemy should these and countless other references to earth as the sphere of Christ’ millennial reign be spiritualized to become the equivalent of heaven, the eternal sate, or the church as amillenarians have done.

To the above we may reply that prophecies of this sort should not be interpreted as referring either to the church of the present time of to heaven, if by heaven is meant a realm somewhere off in space, far away from earth. Prophecies of this nature should be understood as descriptions – in figurate language, to be sure – of the new earth which God will bring into existence after Christ comes again – a new earth which will last, not just for a thousand years, but forever. … There will be a future fulfillment of these prophecies, not in the millennium, but on the new earth. … It is, however, not correct to say that referring these prophecies to the new earth is to engage in a process of “spiritualization” (275-76). ~ Amillennialism and The “Future” Kingdom of God

 
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Grip Docility

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I found this article today, about amillennialism and the "future" Kingdom of God:

Quoting linked article ------>
Compiled by Aaron Orendorff

A common misunderstanding about amillennialism is that “covenant theologians regard the kingdom of God as a wholly invisible and wholly present reality with no future, earthly fulfillment.” It is argued that because amillennialists have no place in their eschatological scheme for Jesus reigning upon a earthly throne in Jerusalem, they therefore by necessity have no place for an earthly, consummated kingdom. Far to the contrary, the amillennial position on the nature of God’s kingdom is that it is both a present and future reality – i.e., that it is both already-and-not-yet, inaugurated but not consummated – and that both these present and future elements of the kingdom include spiritual as well as earthly dimensions. This fulfillment, however, will not take place during a future millennial period but rather at the end of the age when Christ returns and heaven and earth are renewed. To say that because amillennialists do not affirm Christ’s earthly reign “from a throne in Jerusalem” then they cannot affirm an earthly future for God’s kingdom is to confuse a particular (premillennial) understanding of what Christ’s reign will look like with the broader category of God’s kingdom. Such an assertion would be similar to an amillennialist saying that because premillennialists do not affirm that Satan is currently bound so they cannot affirm the current, spiritual presence of God’s kingdom.

The follow excepts conclusively show that the above position is the amillennial position.

Kim Riddlebarger, A Case for Amillennialism

It should be clear from the preceding that the kingdom of God is a present reality, though it is not yet consummated. … The point that Ladd, Ridderbos and Hoekema all make is that biblical data indicates that the kingdom has both present and future elements. New Testament writers set forth a distinct tension between the present inauguration of that kingdom (the “already,” “this age”) and its future consummation (the “not yet,” and the “age to come”). … The prospect of a future kingdom demonstrates that Christ’s fulfillment of these Old Testament promises is typological of a more glorious and final kingdom yet to come. … Christ’s return is not the inauguration of a halfway step on the road to consummation called a “millennium.” Christ’s return is the consummation (112-13).


Anthony Hoekema, The Bible and the Future

Dispensationalists commonly say that we amillennialists spiritualize prophecies of this kind by understanding them as being fulfilled either in the church of this present age or in heaven in the age to come. I believe, however, that prophecies of this sort refer neither primarily to the church of this age nor to heaven, but to the new earth. The concept of the new earth is therefore of great importance for the proper approach to Old Testament prophecy. All too often, unfortunately, amillennial exegetes fail to keep biblical teaching on the new earth in mind when interpreting Old Testament prophecy. It is an impoverishment of the meaning of these passages to make them apply only to the church or to heaven. But it is also an impoverishment to make them refer to a thousand-year period preceding the final state. They must be understood as inspired descriptions of the glorious new earth God is preparing for his people (205-06).
Dispensationalists accuse us amillenarians of “spiritualizing” prophecies of this sort so as to miss their real meaning. John F. Walvoord, for example, says, “The many promises made to Israel are given one two treatments [by Amillennialists]. By the traditional Augustinian amillennialism, these promise are transferred by spiritualized interpretation to the church. The church today is the true Israel and inherits the promise which Israel lost in rejecting Christ. The other, more modern type of amillennialism hold that the promises of righteousness, peace and security are poetic pictures of heaven and fulfilled in heaven, not on earth.” On a later page, after quoting and referring to a number of prophetic passages about the future of the earth, Walvoord goes on to say, “By no theological alchemy should these and countless other references to earth as the sphere of Christ’ millennial reign be spiritualized to become the equivalent of heaven, the eternal sate, or the church as amillenarians have done.

To the above we may reply that prophecies of this sort should not be interpreted as referring either to the church of the present time of to heaven, if by heaven is meant a realm somewhere off in space, far away from earth. Prophecies of this nature should be understood as descriptions – in figurate language, to be sure – of the new earth which God will bring into existence after Christ comes again – a new earth which will last, not just for a thousand years, but forever. … There will be a future fulfillment of these prophecies, not in the millennium, but on the new earth. … It is, however, not correct to say that referring these prophecies to the new earth is to engage in a process of “spiritualization” (275-76). ~ Amillennialism and The “Future” Kingdom of God


Your demeanor is kind and your work is well explained. I don’t detect any lack of mercy on your part for the scattered unbelieving Jews and National Israel as it exists today.

Thank you for this post.

Israel means Contended with God, for the record, it is only proofed by Galatians 6:16 in the doctrine you’re using to suggest Israel is the church of God, IE the BOC. To be honest the context again seems to be Paul referring to believing National Israel as he had just ripped unbelieving National Israel a new one with the book of Galatians.

He even talks about circumcision in a pretty horrible way, right before he drops the well wishes towards “Believing Israel”..

Ecclesia isn’t the same word as Israel... so I’m still not seeing why Israel is considered to be the BOC... in orthodox doctrine.

Please spell this out clearly to me how unbelieving Israel is viewed by the “orthodox” stance you are patiently expressing.
 
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Israel can be in the BOC, but the BOC is not Israel.


This is false. Israelites were the first in the BOC, gentiles were added later. It's the same exact thing as the metaphor of Israel being a tree with original and added branches. They were first in the BOC and on the Olive tree, gentiles came afterward.
 
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This is false. Israelites were the first in the BOC, gentiles were added later. It's the same exact thing as the metaphor of Israel being a tree with original and added branches. They were first in the BOC and on the Olive tree, gentiles came afterward.

The BOC denotes Union with God through the accomplishment of the Incarnation of God.

Israel was the genetic vehicle/womb of Jesus Christ, but Israel was not attached to the Incarnation through the works of the DBR, until after Christ’s Resurrection.

National Israel is the Body of Moses... (Jude 1:9)

The BOC is a New Man. It says so in Ephesians 2!

Again, the two were folded into the new man!
 
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The Righterzpen

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@mister rogers
@parousia70, @My King and Lord (you folks might find these interesting too)
@LittleLambofJesus (you may have read some of these already)

@mister rogers - As per your question about the significance of this national entity today called "Israel"? The answer may be a bit complicated of a "yes" and "no".

Can something be a "fulfillment of prophecy" in a negative sense?
That's a good question?

Just before the destruction of the heavens and the earth; Scripture says Satan will be loosed and there is a lot of false signs and wonders. There will also be a lot of apostasy.

Now as was mentioned by @My King and Lord; there is a awful lot of "political wrangling" going on as a part of Israeli politics, as well as in the creation of current Israel. And if you know anything about the history of Zionism, you may have heard of some of this.

The Balfour Declaration, Bolshevik Revolution, Progroms, "6 million Jews die" - reported in news papers going back before WWI (That number comes out of the Talmud.), The creation of the Federal Reserve, The 1933 Transfer Agreement between Germany and Britain that came into play right after Hitler came to power, "A Nazi goes to Palestine" - news paper articles from 1938 - I believe it was Goebbels (or Goering) who went and reported back on the development of the Kibbutz that were being developed. It was a big spread in the German newspapers to encourage Jews to move to Palestine.

The 6 Day's War, the sinking of the USS Liberty, the nuclear question, Operation Nickel Grass, the role of the Soviets, the role of the US, APAIC, Desert Storm, 9/11, Trump, Kushner, Adelson, moving the embassy to Jerusalem, The coin that has been minted with King Cyrus and Donald Trump on it. (That's interesting!), The (rebuild) Temple Society (I think it's called?), stuff going on in Syria, Saudi Arabia, Putin, China, North Korea, Q-anon etc.

For something that's allegedly a "fulfillment of prophecy" there's an awful LOT of "intervention" from the nations of the world (particularly the US) to "make it happen". How much do you really think God needs our help? LOL

Anyways; I've been working on different studies for a good couple of years now and posting them on the Internet. And I'm posting links here:

Now these are "topically done" and so the information is spread out; and there is a lot of it. (I've been doing this for a while. LOL) So if you care to dive into some of these questions / issues - here are juicy morsels I've found in the Bible.

Bible Study - END TIMES? Chapter 1: Introduction, a bible fanfic | FanFiction
(This one has the most information specifically about eschatology.)

Bible Study: ADAM, JESUS (and the rest of us) Chapter 1: Adam and Eve, a bible fanfic | FanFiction
(Information in here about the atonement that covers what "the great tribulation" was.)

Bible Study: Institutes of the Church - Communion, a bible fanfic | FanFiction
(Explains a lot about Passover and how it related to Jesus's death.)

What Did He REALLY look like? Chapter 1: Introduction, a bible fanfic | FanFiction
(Contains some historical information about 1st century Judaism interpretation of the Messiah.)

Bible Study: Dispensationalism - Sorting Fact from Fiction Chapter 1, a bible fanfic | FanFiction
(This one contains a lot of information about "Jew and Gentile" and how those "fit together" post Pentecost.)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
I believe Jesus was speaking more of the removal of OC Temple, Sanctuary and corrupt murderous Priesthood/Rulers in Jerusalem.

Like Partial Preterists, I also believe a lot of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation were fulfilled on 1st century Jerusalem.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
3 Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4930> of the Age?

Mark 13
1 And He going forth out of the Temple,
3 And of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives over against the Temple,
Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him according to own
4 Tell us! when these shall be?
and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> all these to be fully concluded<4931>.

Luke 21
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple,
7 They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher!
when then shall these be?
And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?
================================================
This is still part of the same discourse concerning the Temple!

"Ye will hear of battles and rumors of battles" 1st century Judea

All 3 mention "the End".
Matt 24:8 and Mark 13:8 has
"All these are the beginning of sorrows.”
Some versions leave out "pestilences" in Matt 24:7.
===========================
Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

Mark 13:7
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled for is binding to be becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

Luke 21:9
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
but not immediately the End<5056>

Luke 19
41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her,
42 saying, "that if Thou knew and Thou, even indeed in this day, the toward peace of Thee, now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee,
and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee
and shall be encompassing Thee a,
and pressing Thee from-every-side.
44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,
and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee,
stead which not Thou knew the season of the visitation<1984> of Thee".

45 He entered into the temple, and began to drive out those who bought and sold in it,
46 saying to them, "It is written, 'My house is a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of robbers'!"

=====================================
The Romans couldn't destroy the Temple EXCEPT by going thru the City from the North/West side. [Look at the amazing vid someone made of the Jewish rebellion and wars

The say a picture is worth a thousand word......take a look at the vid below and tell me that isn't describing the events events prior to 70ad. Would any of the Apostles and followers of Christ have witness these battles

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
===================================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
By George Peter Holford (Written in 1805)


"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION ; together with the impressive and terrific grandeur of the events themselves -- are circumstances which must always insure to the subject of the following pages more than ordinary degrees of interest and importance. Many eminent and learned men have employed their pens in the illustration of it.....................

The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins; and the Roman army as in triumph on the event, came and reared their ensigns against a fragment of the eastern gate, and, with sacrifices of thanksgiving, proclaimed the imperial majesty of Titus, with every possible demonstration of joy.
================================
Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
So, you see the removal of the temple, but still await the return of Jesus? Or do you see His second coming fulfilled in that event?
What do you think? The OC unbelieving Jews of today are still waiting on their own messiah, not ours.
Let them figure it out........They need to read our/their NT.........

"DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 21:22 Revelation

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.

Luke 4:
17 the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written:
21 and He began by saying,
“Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

Luke 21:
22 That days of vengeance<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled all the having been written
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath<3709> upon this people.

Revelation 19:2 “For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication;
and He has avenged <1556> on her the blood of His servants shed by her.”
========================================
What Jews Can Learn from the New Testament | My Jewish Learning


It is daunting to think of the number of books a Jew “must” read in order to achieve Jewish literacy. With trepidation I suggest yet another volume to add to that list: the New Testament (NT).

Anyone who lives in a country with a Christian majority (such as the United States or Canada) should acquire basic knowledge of the foundational literature of the dominant faith. Students of the arts need to know stories like the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32), the raising of Lazarus (John 11:1-44), and the “passion” of Jesus (i.e. his trial, suffering, and death) or they will be at a disadvantage when studying many works of literature, art, and music. But there are also reasons why Jews, specifically, would gain from study of the New Testament. It is a rich source for a better understanding of Jewish history, Jewish thought, Jewish law, and the history of anti-Semitism.

Almost all of the books of the NT were written by Jews, many of them during one of the most eventful periods of Jewish history: just before and just after the destruction of the Second Temple (in 70 C.E.). Very few Jewish writings from that century survive, and none by the rabbis, the representatives of what soon became normative Judaism, since the rabbis of that period felt that their teachings had to remain oral (a position they eventually abandoned). So really the only surviving religious books written by Jews in the first and second centuries are a few of the later Dead Sea Scrolls and the NT..................................
 
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claninja

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Descendants of Jacob still living in Israel isn’t subjective or objective.

From a statistical standpoint, it would be objective. It's been well over 100 generations since Abraham. His DNA, on statistical probability alone, is ubiquitous.

That’s a sociological fact that is verified by DNA, heritage and extra biblical recordings.

I mean, my family recently did one of those DNA tests and we have ancestors who are Jewish. The fact, is Abrahamic DNA is all over the world. So I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the middle east.

However, just because someone is a biological descendant of Abraham, doesn't mean they will inherit the promises. As not all Israel is Israel. God can even turn stones into children of Abraham.

Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

matthew 3:9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.

Under the new covenant it is solely by belonging to Christ that one is Abraham's offspring and heirs to the promise, regardless of race, nationality, or tribe.

Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

Not all of them can trace to their Tribe, but it’s a fact...

Tribal status or Israelite genealogoy (other than Christ) is something the body of Christ is to avoid discussing, as it promotes speculation, rather than stewardship.

1 timothy 1:4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith

As for This Generation shall not pass interpretations from preterist standards.... It gets used to strip National Israel of their Romans 11:25-31 promises

Not following how "this generation shall not pass away" strips the promise of "all Israel" being saved in Romans 11:25-31 from "national Israel" when Paul clearly defines true Israel through Romans 9-11, as the faithful Jews and Gentiles who are elected as vessels of mercy......
 
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parousia70

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parousia70 said:
Are you suggesting anyone today can claim to be physical Israel and “viola”, they are?

Not in any way, am I claiming this.

Then why are you blindly accepting the claims of those who say they are?

You don't seem to require any evidence before you say to someone who says "I am Biblical Israel", you immediately say "yes I agree you are Israel, you must be, for you say so"

Someone merely makes the claim and "viola", you believe them without question or scrutiny.

(Except of course those people who have pledged their Fidelity and allegiance to, and have become loyal subjects of Israel's King, Jesus Christ, then you say "NO! You loyal subjects of the King of Israel are NOT Israel, it's only those who REJECT the King of Israel who must be counted as Israel")

Curious.

You have a very bizarre idea of who is Israel (you count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham).
YOU TEACH THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE APOSTLES TEACH.

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Just like with Moses in the Wilderness, Believing Faithful Israel continues, while Wicked, Apostate Israel is destroyed.

And Just Like Old Covenant Israel, Gentiles who believe and convert to New Covenant Israel are welcomed and received as full fledged citizens.

The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.
 
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