Unjustified Imputed Guilt

I'm not sure where the bible says outright we bear the guilt for Adams sin, but one thing that definitely flies in the face of that is, Jesus would have born Adams sin too because he was human like us. But instead, and we all know this is a fact, Christ was said to be, and was, sinless. Making me believe he bore no guilt because he had no sin, so in turn any guilt we have is due to our own sin.

I think the "born with a clean slate" is more likely the case, for what good it's going to do us. That is unless someone can say where the bible says clearly we are guilty for Adams sin, something that in itself, we know just doesn't sound fair at all.

Also, and I'd have to try to find scripture if no one else recalls it, but if I'm not mistaken, it was said somewhere in the bible that God will not hold the innocent guilty of someone else's sin.

So, in the end we have the following cases against us being held guilty for Adams sin, if they all pan out to be true anyway (some already are:

1) Jesus was sinless and he was human, a strong case.
2) To be guilty of someone else's sin just doesn't sound right, a somewhat strong case.
2) It "may" be biblical God doesn't hold one guilty of anothers sin. Maybe the strongest case against, if verified true.

And the possible reason for being held guilty is, the bible might say that, not a very strong case. That's where I'm at anyway.

BNR32FAN said:

Yes but the difference in this situation in John 15:2 is that Jesus is the one who is saying they are “in Me”. Notice He doesn’t say those who claim to be in Me or say they are in Me. No Jesus specifically says “every branch IN ME”. So you have to accept it the way Jesus said it otherwise your twisting it to coincide with your beliefs my friend.

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If you want to interpret that one verse as saying those people once had genuine faith and they lost their salvation; then I feel sorry for you, because you will never have peace.

Compare that verse with these ones. What do you do with these verses?

John 10:28-29
(Is the sinner greater than God? Because if he can snatch himself out of the Father's hand, than God is not omnipotent.)

Romans 5:1
(One who believes they can lose their salvation has no peace.)

Romans 8:31-39
(If the passage is true and nothing can separate a believer from the love of Christ, than that includes their own failings. That includes the times when they lack faith.)

Ephesians 1:13-14
(Now this verse says someone who's come to believe is sealed by the Holy Spirit. How much doubt do they have to exhibit to be unsealed?)

Hebrews 6:18-20
(This verse says it's impossible for God to lie, which is the foundation wherewith people have hope. And in this passage the hope is that Jesus is interceding for them. How much doubt, or what degree of sin would you have to commit that would cause Him to stop?)

Hebrews 13:5
("I'll never leave you or forsake you." Unless.......?????? Yet in the passage quoted before this one, it says it's impossible for God to lie. So.... does never really not mean never?)

How many more verses do you want?

GodsGrace101 said:

Could you clarify please.
In the above statement you say that the sin of one, Adam, is IMPUTED to all mankind.

Then in your post no. 88 you state that all mankind suffers from the EFFECT of Adam's sin...

Which is it?

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Both.

Kenny'sID said:

I'm not sure where the bible says outright we bear the guilt for Adams sin,

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Romans 5:12-21

Kenny'sID said:

but one thing that definitely flies in the face of that is, Jesus would have born Adams sin too because he was human like us.

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He was like us without sin: Hebrews 4:15

BNR32FAN said:

But according to Romans 9:22 their predestination is still based on God foreseeing their choice to rebel and failure to repent. So ultimately God has not sealed their fate they did it themselves thru their unwillingness to repent. The names that are not written in the book of life before creation are those who God had foreseen who will not repent and abide.

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Yet if according to Romans 3:11, none seek after God; what choice is He foreseeing; that they don't seek Him?

I do agree that it is one's transgression that condemns them, not God predetermining they will suffer His wrath. Then again, if He DOESN'T do something; that will be the outcome, because they WON'T. Humanity left to our own devices is in rebellion. We hate God.

BNR32FAN said:

I’m not arguing with God at all. I’m arguing with you. I assure you I have asked God to help me understand His word more times than I can count and I believe He has. Do you believe that none of the churches before the 16th century understood His word? Because none of them taught predestination or eternal security before the 16th century.

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No, you're not arguing with me - you are auguring with the Scripture because the Scripture is pretty clear on these things.

The Scripture is pretty clear that the people in the 1st century believed in eternal security. Both the terms predestination and election are right there in the Scriptures. So why you think that no-one before the 16th century believed this - I have no clue.

Again though, you did not answer my first question. Do you understand that you deserve God's wrath? Have you ever feared God, on account of the conviction that you deserve His wrath?

I know I have!

GodsGrace101 said:

Yes, Jesus will say I NEVER KNEW YOU...
But He also tells us why in the next breath:
Mathew 7:23b
"YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS."

We are required to obey the Law..the Moral Law and any other commandments specifically stated by Jesus.
Those who do not obey the Law...are LAWLESS...they are without the law and will not enter into heaven.

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Yet look at the context of the entire passage. Look at what they do that is their claim to works of righteousness.

Matthew 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Now note context here; does Jesus deny that they did these things? No He doesn't. They "look" Christian on the outside. But inside are "ravening wolves" (vs 16)

Now go back and start with verse 1 of the chapter. Jesus is talking about using discerning judgement and not being a hypocrite. Then He goes on to explain that what you see (or think you see) on the outside is not what's on the inside. And after giving a discourse of examples of this; He goes on to give the warning. "Many will say: Have we not....." And His response is to call them workers of iniquity!

Why? Because He's the only one who can see the totality of how far amiss their hearts are. Externally they "look fine". They've "fooled" a lot of people. There are other passages that explain how to spot these people in the church. They often seek leadership positions, so they can "lord over" other people. I've personally dealt with these types of people - how to spot them is a different subject though.

Now after the sinner has been awakened to their need for redemption; verse 7-14 explain their experience. They diligently search and plead for the narrow gate.

Why is this?

Because they are awakened to the fact that if it is not opened to them; they have no hope. And they take not for granted that God would "let them in" because they understand that they don't deserve salvation! They don't deserve God's mercy. They know that!

They don't say in their hearts "Oh, it's OK; God will "let it slide" if I'm obedient enough." They know and understand that all their righteousness is as filthy rags. They understand they are destitute and without hope in this world. They understand that God is the only one who can fix them and they plead to Him to fix them.

So in these passages, Jesus is explaining that the Father is good; so He will fix them. Because just as you are wicked and at the very least feed your hungry children; how much more will God bestow mercy upon a sinner who is thoroughly convicted that they are in desperate need of mercy.

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

And so I asked @BNR32FAN this question - and I present the same question to you. Are you, or have you ever been convicted that you are worthy of God's wrath and did/does that scare you?

redleghunter said:

You might be affirming a form of original sin or “sin nature” we all inherit. But seem to have issue with the condemnation of Adam’s sin as ours as well. Either that or you just don’t like the word “impute.” Which actually explains Romans 5:12-21

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I did reread (again) from the beginning of the passage, and that actually to me clearly starts in chapter 2 at verse 12, so I re-read yet again all from 2:12 through chapter 5, to be sure I fully had full context. I wondered if the language wording communication problem was about the usage of "impute", but also wondered to hear more about the notion Adam's sin was added to our personal accounts (that theory), and found this on the first search, which may help the communication/understanding each other:

Imputation of sin
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Reformed theology, the imputation of sin is the crediting of Adam's sin to the account of every individual human being. Under the framework of covenant theology, Adam is considered as a "federal head" or representative of all of his progeny. His sinful act of eating the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which was forbidden by God had consequences for all humanity. This is explained as the sin being imputed, or accounted, to individual humans. A person that has sin imputed to them becomes guilty of transgression before God for being in violation to his laws and is subject to his punishments in the life hereafter.[1]

Several theories have been proposed by Reformed theologians to explain how Adam's sin is transmitted to others. The "immediate imputation" view holds that when Adam sinned, all of humanity became sinful simply by that act, without further consideration. Under the "mediate imputation" view, humans inherited a proclivity to sin because of Adam's act.[2] In recent years, theologians have begun to explain the transmission of original sin by socialization and character deformation rather than imputation.[3]
Imputation of sin - Wikipedia

And it did help me get why you want to use the word 'imputed' instead of instead just saying the more straightforward that we were condemned to mortal death in these bodies by Adam's sin, without needing extra ideas about it being specifically put on our person accounts individually. It appears in Reformed terminology, I might have something close to a '"mediate imputation" view', though I've not yet read more on that to verify, but it sounds roughly to correspond. But...to me in Romans 5 when you consider a verse like 18, you have to reconcile it fully first with 12, 13, and 14-17...verse 21...and also other parts of scripture elsewhere too, like Ezekiel chapter 18. Fully. It all has to fit together. So thus 'condemnation' in verse 18 appears to mean just what verses 15, 17, and 21 say -- meaning the death sentence on this mortal body we are temporarily in, not the same as putting Adam's particular sin on our individual accounts until we do it ourselves, as we all do, in time. Also, I recognize this is all somewhat esoteric, and not needed to be understood to know that we need Christ to redeem us!

redleghunter said:

Romans 5:12-21

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If you will, please point me to the exact part of the scripture you are talking about because all I saw in there were things that seems to verify were aren't held guilty for Adams sin, and not that we were.

The Righterzpen said:

If you want to interpret that one verse as saying those people once had genuine faith and they lost their salvation; then I feel sorry for you, because you will never have peace.

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The above is about John 15:1-10 right? I've seen it used a lot as a proof text for loss of salvation. The problem is few consider the audience (the 11 apostles), the context and most importantly the following verses of the passage.

The context: Jesus and the 11 just leave the meal and start their trek to Gethsemane. The last sentence in chapter 14 is "Get up, let us go from here." Judas is gone and at the very least John and Peter know Judas is the one who would betray our Lord. It is obvious to the other disciples Judas is gone from the other Gospel accounts. The very first discourse Jesus gives the 11 (the audience) is what it means to be a disciple.


Verses 1-10 taken alone could be convincing that Jesus is warning His remaining 11 disciples that if they don't abide they will suffer the consequences of apostasy. If we take these verses along with the context of Judas in mind, then we can up that to a stern and sobering warning. Within the full context I would agree Jesus is telling the 11 this discourse on the vine knowing they know Judas is the betrayer. But it does not end at verse 10 and this is where it gets a bit more interesting and we understand the fuller context going forward:


With verse 11 included in the discussion and context we see Jesus state why He is telling them this Vine and Branches discourse. So that His joy may be in them and that their joy may be made full. Not a statement of loss of salvation, or a "you better do this or" type of context, but to assure them they are not like Judas who is an example of a branch which would be burned up. But the dialogue continues:


More reassurance here from Jesus to the 11. He clearly states that He chose them and they did not choose Him. And what is clear within the context of verses 1-11 is they would go and bear fruit and that their fruit would remain. The key words are that Jesus chose them and appointed them to go bear fruit and that their fruit would remain. Obviously as the son of Perdition Judas was not appointed as Judas betrayed our Lord.

Chapter 15 is Christ reassuring the 11 that they are truly disciples.

As we continue to chapter 16 we see Jesus teach them about the Holy Spirit and how they will receive the Holy Spirit. In chapter 17 we see Jesus pray for His disciples (the 11) in what is called the High Priestly prayer.

Then we see all 11 run when Jesus is arrested, Peter denying the Lord three times. After all this assurance from Jesus the 11 abandon Him. Yet they were all kept, preserved and did not end up like Judas.

What's interesting is how Jesus restores Peter in chapter 21. He asks Peter three times if he loves Him. If we page back to chapter 15, Jesus makes the centerpiece of discipleship "if you love me."

Kenny'sID said:

If you will, please point me to the exact part of the scripture you are talking about because all I saw in there were things that seems to verify were aren't held guilty for Adams sin, and not that we were.

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Sure:

Romans 5: NASB

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Righterzpen said:

Yes, and this fact does not deny the state of men's hearts that they will not repent if it were not for God's awakening them to that need.

For it's the goodness of God that leads one to repentance. Romans 2:4

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Romans 2:4 does NOT mean that God is leading someone specific to repentance, in fact, it shows the justice of God in that it's stated in verse 3 that those who do "these things" will be punished.

IOW, not EVERYONE will be punished as you often say that we ALL deserve to go to hell... NO. Romans 2:3 says that those doing these things (greed, envy, murder, etc) as in verse 29-31 are the ones that will be punished.

Romans 2:9
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

Those who do NOT do these things will receive glory and honor from God.
Romans 2:10
but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Please note that it states glory and honor to EVERYONE who does good.
And tribulation and distress for every soul of man who DOES EVIL.

Why?

Romans 2:11
11For there is no partiality with God.

BNR32FAN said:

Jesus used this example to support His previous message of bearing good fruit. Any tree that does not bear good fruit will be copped down and thrown in the fire. He used this example to separate the wolves from the sheep.

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Right.
AND He repeats this in
John 15:1-6

For those who like to heed the words of Jesus....
Which are clear:

John 15:5-6
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

The Righterzpen said:

Yet if according to Romans 3:11, none seek after God; what choice is He foreseeing; that they don't seek Him?

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A valid point you probably won't get a straight answer to.

The Righterzpen said:

I do agree that it is one's transgression that condemns them, not God predetermining they will suffer His wrath. Then again, if He DOESN'T do something; that will be the outcome, because they WON'T. Humanity left to our own devices is in rebellion. We hate God.

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Yes we know this because the dead don't talk (Ephesians 2).

Halbhh said:

But...to me in Romans 5 when you consider a verse like 18, you have to reconcile it fully first with 12, 13, and 14-17...verse 21...and also other parts of scripture elsewhere too, like Ezekiel chapter 18. Fully. It all has to fit together.

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And it does fit together. Notice in Romans 5, Paul is making a parallel. Condemned in Adam, Reconciled in Christ. Sons not being accountable for the sins of a father are those sins Paul categorizes as "even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam."

Do you see how he differentiates the sin of Adam from all 'others?' Adam is the "type of Him who was to come."

In Ezekiel chapter 18 those heading into exile blame the sins of their fathers on their current condition. God emphasizes he will judge all. What you are leaving out is how this wickedness came about in the first place. Paul answers this in Romans 5.

GodsGrace101 said:

Please note that it states glory and honor to EVERYONE who does good.
And tribulation and distress for every soul of man who DOES EVIL.

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And now advance to how Paul develops this concept and the rest of the story:

GodsGrace101 said:

Romans 2:11
11For there is no partiality with God.

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You are right there is no partiality for those condemned Jew or Gentile (which by the way is the context of chapter 2). We all suffer the same fate being under the wrath of God.

However, there is partiality for those who are in Christ Jesus:

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1)

redleghunter said:

Both.

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.
How could it be both?
Adam's sin WAS imputed to us...
Adam's sin WAS NOT imputed to us....

The second is correct and accepted by current scholars.

Adam fell causing all men to be included in that fall.
We have become sinners because of that fall....but we commit our own sins...Adam committed his sin.

We suffer from its effects...we are not judged on his sin, but on our own.

redleghunter said:

Both.

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.
How could it be both?
Adam's sin WAS imputed to us...
Adam's sin WAS NOT imputed to us....

The second is correct and accepted by current scholars.

Adam fell causing all men to be included in that fall.
We have become sinners because of that fall....but we commit our own sins...Adam committed his sin.

We suffer from its effects...we are not judged on his sin, but on our own.

Kenny'sID said:

If you will, please point me to the exact part of the scripture you are talking about because all I saw in there were things that seems to verify were aren't held guilty for Adams sin, and not that we were.

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How many do you need? Sin came as the result of, 'many died by the trespass of the one man' (Rom. 5:15), 'judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation' (Rom. 5:16), the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man (Rom. 5:17), 'just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men' (Rom. 5:18), 'through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners' (Rom. 5:19).