Amillenialism and the nation of Israel

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,534
4,827
57
Oregon
✟797,954.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Post 1st coming... no. Circumcision not required.
Post first coming Not required for one to be considered a member of Physical Israel?
What scripture teaches this?

Are you suggesting anyone today can claim to be physical Israel and “viola”, they are?

That sure bolsters the Mormon’s claim to that title...

How about before the first coming?

Was any act of obedience required for inclusion in physical Israel or was simply having the proper dna enough as you have been suggesting?

What then did God mean when he said:
Genesis 17:14
And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

What does “shall be cut off from his people, he has Broken my covenant” mean if not what it LITERALLY says?

How can someone with born with proper dna break a covenant who’s only requirement is proper dna?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
4,443
1,722
North America
✟83,913.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Post first coming Not required for one to be considered a member of Physical Israel?
What scripture teaches this?

Believe and be saved. Jesus spoke those words before his DBR. He also specified He was only to the Lost children of the house of Israel, and even commissioned the 12, “emphasis, before His DBR”... to only go to the house of Israel. (Matthew 15:24, Matthew 10:6, John 6:29). Thusly, we see that God simplifies the matter because of His Corporeal Presence among us... to the point He even says this (Matthew 23:39) to the unbelieving and hard hearted

Are you suggesting anyone today can claim to be physical Israel and “viola”, they are?
Not in any way, am I claiming this.

That sure bolsters the Mormon’s claim to that title...

The BOC is not Israel. I’ve made this statement so emphatically repeated during our back and forth, I’m going to take this as humor with a side of tongue-in-cheek on your part.

As for Mormons, Magic underoos, Women in eternal Child labor and men wanting to be God’s always makes me cringe! Why would anyone want to be God, Any woman desire to be in eternal child labor, or any human being want to were magic underoos!?!

How about before the first coming?
Was any act of obedience required for inclusion in physical Israel or was simply having the proper dna enough as you have been suggesting?
What then did God mean when he said:
Genesis 17:14
And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

Hebrews 11:39-40 makes it clear that eternal reward wasn’t available until Christ gave up the Ghost.

As for the Old Covenant... Deuteronomy 31:26 makes it clear that ALL fell short. The BOC (1 Corinthians 12:27) and the Body of Moses (Jude 1:9) are always contended for by Satan! (Hebrews 2:13; 1 Corinthians 15:54-57)

All fell short and were only blessed by God’s promises... we can go round and round but we both know there is a literal blood lineage as the devil continues to fail at wiping all of Jacob’s literal descendants out.

What does “shall be cut off from his people, he has Broken my covenant” mean if not what it LITERALLY says?

It literally means cut off. This is before the New Covenant was put in place. No issue here as I specified, “Post/After” the first coming towards your question.

Romans 11:28 addresses this as well as all of Romans 11 in full Epistle context.

Regrafted... it says... regrafted... and after the time of the Gentiles is full. Romans 11:25-36

How can someone with born with proper dna break a covenant who’s only requirement is proper dna?

How can someone break a promise/covenant that was always made to be contingent on God, instead of man?

Deuteronomy 6 in entirety

Did the Children of Israel decide which of them was taken out of Egypt? No

God said these wonderful words... (Exodus 14:14)

The promises are always contingent on God, not man. That’s the point! Man has a choice in matters of the heart, but the Stone covenant has always been God’s standards for Himself. We cast stones, when only ONE has the right to cast stones... when He stood among us and did not cast the stone. The Adulterous was caught in the smoking act of adultery, and God, who said (Only God is Good)... said “then woman I accuse you neither”.

I look for hope for the Hopeless in scripture, because that is what the same Spirit in me that is in you has placed on my heart. You are clearly impressed to look into other matters.

That doesn’t change the fact that you and I are different members of the same body.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
4,443
1,722
North America
✟83,913.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
When did it cease being Israel?

On earth, the 1 Corinthians 12:27 of the matter is exactly as it says.

All Israel, (the Body of Moses Jude 1:9) is not Israel... Romans 9:6

Israel is grafted into the BOC and becomes Part of the BOC as well as retains recognition as Israel.

A gentile member of the BOC is not part of Israel, here on earth. No bible verse specifies otherwise.

Supersession strips National Israel of its promises that are contingent on God, not Israel, which isn’t Scriptural.

Note, we are running a circular argument we have crossed over, before.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,534
4,827
57
Oregon
✟797,954.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Israel is grafted into the BOC and becomes Part of the BOC as well as retains recognition as Israel.
Which promises do they receive?
Those promised Israel or those to promised to the BOC?

A gentile member of the BOC is not part of Israel, here on earth. No bible verse specifies otherwise.

"Ye were...aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise...[but Christ] hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens."(Eph 2:12,19)

Paul is abundantly clear here. Gentile converts to christianity go from being "foreigners of the commonwealth of Israel" to "fellow citizens."

How is Paul wrong about that?

The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I am a Jew (Rom 2:27-29), say I am "Abraham's seed" (Rom 4:16/Gal 3:29), say I am "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9-10), say I am the circumcision-less Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16), say I am "no longer a stranger but a fellow citizen of the commonwealth" (Eph 2:19), say I was once not a people but now am the people of God (1 Pet 2:10) and say I am the circumcision (Phil 3:2-3).

Each and every one of these statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me with it.

Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Rev 2:9/John 8:39-47), and St. John says that those who deny the Son have no claim whatsoever to the Father (1 Jn 2:23)
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
I believe Jesus was speaking of the removal of Jerusalem from the Jews in full context.

Per Acts 1, Jesus’ Second Coming will be in Corporeal form.

That’s just my opinion. <3
I believe Jesus was speaking more of the removal of OC Temple, Sanctuary and corrupt murderous Priesthood/Rulers in Jerusalem.

Like Partial Preterists, I also believe a lot of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation were fulfilled on 1st century Jerusalem.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
3 Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4930> of the Age?

Mark 13
1 And He going forth out of the Temple,
3 And of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives over against the Temple,
Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him according to own
4 Tell us! when these shall be?
and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> all these to be fully concluded<4931>.

Luke 21
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple,
7 They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher!
when then shall these be?
And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?
================================================
This is still part of the same discourse concerning the Temple!

"Ye will hear of battles and rumors of battles" 1st century Judea

All 3 mention "the End".
Matt 24:8 and Mark 13:8 has
"All these are the beginning of sorrows.”
Some versions leave out "pestilences" in Matt 24:7.

===========================
Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

Mark 13:7

“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled for is binding to be becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

Luke 21:9

“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
but not immediately the End<5056>

Luke 19
41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her,
42 saying, "that if Thou knew and Thou, even indeed in this day, the toward peace of Thee, now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee,
and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee
and shall be encompassing Thee a,
and pressing Thee from-every-side.
44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,
and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee,

stead which not Thou knew the season of the visitation<1984> of Thee".

45 He entered into the temple, and began to drive out those who bought and sold in it,
46 saying to them, "It is written, 'My house is a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of robbers'!"

=====================================
The Romans couldn't destroy the Temple EXCEPT by going thru the City from the North/West side. [Look at the amazing vid someone made of the Jewish rebellion and wars

The say a picture is worth a thousand word......take a look at the vid below and tell me that isn't describing the events events prior to 70ad. Would any of the Apostles and followers of Christ have witness these battles

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
===================================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
By George Peter Holford (Written in 1805)


"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."

(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION ; together with the impressive and terrific grandeur of the events themselves -- are circumstances which must always insure to the subject of the following pages more than ordinary degrees of interest and importance. Many eminent and learned men have employed their pens in the illustration of it.....................

The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins; and the Roman army as in triumph on the event, came and reared their ensigns against a fragment of the eastern gate, and, with sacrifices of thanksgiving, proclaimed the imperial majesty of Titus, with every possible demonstration of joy.

================================
Matthew 24:6

“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>


 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
4,443
1,722
North America
✟83,913.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Which promises do they receive?
Those promised Israel or those to promised to the BOC?

The BOC receives the Anrahamic “seed” promise

Israel receives all of its specific Promises plus the Abrahamic “Seeds” promises.

"Ye were...aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise
...[but Christ] hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens."(Eph 2:12,19)

Paul is abundantly clear here. Gentile converts to christianity go from being "foreigners of the commonwealth of Israel" to "fellow citizens."

How is Paul wrong about that?

The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I am a Jew (Rom 2:27-29), say I am "Abraham's seed" (Rom 4:16/Gal 3:29), say I am "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9-10), say I am the circumcision-less Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16), say I am "no longer a stranger but a fellow citizen of the commonwealth" (Eph 2:19), say I was once not a people but now am the people of God (1 Pet 2:10) and say I am the circumcision (Phil 3:2-3).

Each and every one of these statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me with it.

Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Rev 2:9/John 8:39-47), and St. John says that those who deny the Son have no claim whatsoever to the Father (1 Jn 2:23)

You skipped the very verses that proof the citizenship is with Christ and the Jews and Gentiles became the Body of Christ through faith.

It specifically brings Israel and Gentiles into a NEW Body.

The citizenship promised could be agreed to be Heavenly Jerusalem..., but here on earth, the BOC is not Israel.

If you want to be sincere to the full context, it specifically speaks of Heavenly citizenship in Jesus.

We know by Romans 9 that Paul calls out Israel by flesh of lineage, so your perpetual premise to say this Israel doesn’t exist or is “Replaced” by a “New Israel” is further falsified by Paul’s perpetual Use of Israel of Fleshly Origin.

Even my Heavenly Jerusalem concession comes from speaking of life after this life.

By omitting certain verses to make your point you skipped verses that bring it all back to substantiating what I have been discussing with you all this time.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Site Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,418
6,800
✟916,399.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
We know by Romans 9 that Paul calls out Israel by flesh of lineage, so your perpetual premise to say this Israel doesn’t exist or is “Replaced” by a “New Israel” is further falsified by Paul’s perpetual Use of Israel of Fleshly Origin.

Yet only Jews that accept Christ are allowed to remain on the tree they were born into. Those who are faithless are removed. God is pruning Israel by removing branches he does not want attached to his Israel. Furthermore he adds new branches that have faith in Christ, further enhancing this tree. Being on the tree is to be a part of the NT Israel. The removed branches are ethnically Jewish but have lost citizenship in God's Israel.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: parousia70
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Site Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,418
6,800
✟916,399.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Israel is grafted into the BOC and becomes Part of the BOC as well as retains recognition as Israel.


Israel isn't grafted into anything. Israel is the original BOC, it's first members, starting with the Jews that followed Christ. Only gentiles that accepted Christ were grafted into anything.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: parousia70
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
I have recently taken the more amillenial view (I prefer the term postmillenial, however that has a different meaning to many these days). But I still have difficulty believing the return of the Jews to their historic land this past century has no prophetic significance. Thoughts?
Don't worry about it.

The return of the Jews to the land as appointed to them by Yahuweh (God)
happened as Yahuweh directed.

What happens NEXT IS BEYOND FANTASTIC !

(and maybe nothing to do with any millenial view and is not affected by any such view)
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Grip Docility
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 19, 2017
3,485
1,045
Colorado
✟415,058.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
  • Optimistic
Reactions: Grip Docility
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Don't worry about it.

The return of the Jews to the land as appointed to them by Yahuweh (God)
happened as Yahuweh directed.
What happens NEXT IS BEYOND FANTASTIC !
(and has nothing to do with any millenial view and is not affected by any such view)
Could be [providing it is still future].
Just don't be in Judea when it happens.
If/when it occurs, I will be watching it on CNN in the comfort of my home in God's country of Texas.........

Luke 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, “Brood of vipers! Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath?

Matthew 24:19
Woe yet to those pregnant and to those giving suck in those days

Mark 13:17
Woe yet to those pregnant and to those giving suck in those days

Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be Great Distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
===========================================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world; .....................

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.
In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by tile smell of food, threatened her with instant death if she refused to discover it. 'Intimidated by this menace, she immediately produced the remains of her son, which petrified them with horror. At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast, and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes. Indeed, humanity at once shudders and sickens at the narration, nor can any one of the least sensibility reflect upon the pitiable condition to which the female part of the inhabitants of Jerusalem must at this time have been reduced, without experiencing the tenderest emotions of sympathy, or refrain from tears while he reads our SAVIOUR'S pathetic address to the women who " bewailed him" as he was led to Calvary, wherein he evidently refers to these very calamities : "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but for yourselves and fur your children ; for, behold, the days are coming in which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the breasts that never gave suck." Luke xxiii. 29.

 
Upvote 0

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 19, 2017
3,485
1,045
Colorado
✟415,058.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Just don't be in Judea when it happens.

Incorrect, the judgment will be felt worldwide where God's New Testament congregations all over the world can be found.

Revelation 20:7-9 KJV
[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The camp of the saints and the beloved city is NOT the physical city of Jerusalem in the Middle East like you believe. Rather she represents the churches all over the world where she is under the attack by the army of false prophets and Christs with lying signs and wonders, that not even Texas, or maybe YOUR church can protect you!
 
Upvote 0

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
4,443
1,722
North America
✟83,913.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Wait a minute. What new body? Show us the verse that exactly said that.

For He is our peace, who made both groups one and tore down the dividing wall of hostility. In His flesh, He made of no effect the law consisting of commands and expressed in regulations, so that He might create in Himself one new man from the two, resulting in peace. He did this so that He might reconcile both to God in one body through the cross and put the hostility to death by it.
Ephesians 2:14-16 - Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2:14-16 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now you are the body of Christ, and individual members of it. And God has placed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, next miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, managing, various kinds of languages.
1 Corinthians 12:27-28 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 12:27-28 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

New Body... not Israel 2.0
 
Upvote 0

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
4,443
1,722
North America
✟83,913.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Israel isn't grafted into anything. Israel is the original BOC, it's first members, starting with the Jews that followed Christ. Only gentiles that accepted Christ were grafted into anything.

No.

Jude 1:9 ... Body of Moses

Daniel state Michael fights for Israel.... Daniel 12:1

for the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 1:17 - Bible Gateway passage: John 1:17 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

2 separate bodies... only united in ONE new Man!

Israel can be in the BOC, but the BOC is not Israel.

For He is our peace, who made both groups one and tore down the dividing wall of hostility. In His flesh, He made of no effect the law consisting of commands and expressed in regulations, so that He might create in Himself one new man from the two, resulting in peace. He did this so that He might reconcile both to God in one body through the cross and put the hostility to death by it.
Ephesians 2:14-16 - Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2:14-16 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now you are the body of Christ, and individual members of it. And God has placed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, next miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, managing, various kinds of languages.
1 Corinthians 12:27-28 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 12:27-28 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

New Body... not Israel 2.0
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
4,443
1,722
North America
✟83,913.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Incorrect, the judgment will be felt worldwide where God's New Testament congregations all over the world can be found.

Revelation 20:7-9 KJV
[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The camp of the saints and the beloved city is NOT the physical city of Jerusalem in the Middle East like you believe. Rather she represents the churches all over the world where she is under the attack by the army of false prophets and Christs with lying signs and wonders, that not even Texas, or maybe YOUR church can protect you!

Not so, at all...

The beautiful city is the Joel 3, Zechariah 14 of the matter and it goes far more Scripturally into detail than that. Cross reference feast. Magido... where Armageddon is derived from... and so on.

Not once has Israel been destroyed then the presence of God physically fights against all nations destroying it.

Acts 1 verified Jesus will return to the mount of Olives and Daniel locates the anti Christ final camp in Jerusalem... so... no... you’re ignoring context.

The dead are judged at the great white throne.

The Bible is painfully clear where that is.

I can even proof this with scripture that shows the 8th head of the hydra is shaping up and is focused against National Israel!
 
Upvote 0

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
4,443
1,722
North America
✟83,913.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I believe Jesus was speaking more of the removal of OC Temple, Sanctuary and corrupt murderous Priesthood/Rulers in Jerusalem.

Like Partial Preterists, I also believe a lot of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation were fulfilled on 1st century Jerusalem.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
3 Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4930> of the Age?

Mark 13
1 And He going forth out of the Temple,
3 And of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives over against the Temple,
Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him according to own
4 Tell us! when these shall be?
and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> all these to be fully concluded<4931>.

Luke 21
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple,
7 They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher!
when then shall these be?
And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?
================================================
This is still part of the same discourse concerning the Temple!

"Ye will hear of battles and rumors of battles" 1st century Judea

All 3 mention "the End".
Matt 24:8 and Mark 13:8 has
"All these are the beginning of sorrows.”
Some versions leave out "pestilences" in Matt 24:7.

===========================
Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

Mark 13:7

“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled for is binding to be becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

Luke 21:9

“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
but not immediately the End<5056>

Luke 19
41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her,
42 saying, "that if Thou knew and Thou, even indeed in this day, the toward peace of Thee, now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee,
and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee
and shall be encompassing Thee a,
and pressing Thee from-every-side.
44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,
and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee,

stead which not Thou knew the season of the visitation<1984> of Thee".

45 He entered into the temple, and began to drive out those who bought and sold in it,
46 saying to them, "It is written, 'My house is a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of robbers'!"

=====================================
The Romans couldn't destroy the Temple EXCEPT by going thru the City from the North/West side. [Look at the amazing vid someone made of the Jewish rebellion and wars

The say a picture is worth a thousand word......take a look at the vid below and tell me that isn't describing the events events prior to 70ad. Would any of the Apostles and followers of Christ have witness these battles

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
===================================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
By George Peter Holford (Written in 1805)


"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."

(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION ; together with the impressive and terrific grandeur of the events themselves -- are circumstances which must always insure to the subject of the following pages more than ordinary degrees of interest and importance. Many eminent and learned men have employed their pens in the illustration of it.....................

The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins; and the Roman army as in triumph on the event, came and reared their ensigns against a fragment of the eastern gate, and, with sacrifices of thanksgiving, proclaimed the imperial majesty of Titus, with every possible demonstration of joy.

================================
Matthew 24:6

“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>


So, you see the removal of the temple, but still await the return of Jesus? Or do you see His second coming fulfilled in that event?
 
Upvote 0

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
4,443
1,722
North America
✟83,913.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Yet only Jews that accept Christ are allowed to remain on the tree they were born into. Those who are faithless are removed. God is pruning Israel by removing branches he does not want attached to his Israel. Furthermore he adds new branches that have faith in Christ, further enhancing this tree. Being on the tree is to be a part of the NT Israel. The removed branches are ethnically Jewish but have lost citizenship in God's Israel.

We don’t disagree about the removal of the branches from the New Man BOC... Romans 9-11 specifies exactly this.

Romans 11:13-36 addresses the regrafting through a mystery.

The BOC isn’t Israel as it is specifically cited as a NEW MAN and the BOC.

There will be a regrafting. Unbelieving Israel will go through deception beyond our comprehension that starts with the beast, anti christ and ends with the REAL Messiah physically re-presenting Himself as Israel’s defender. The Arch Angel Michael is specifically National Israel’s defender and most likely will announce the second coming of Christ to Israel. Hence the Arch Angels cry, upon the return of Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
4,443
1,722
North America
✟83,913.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
While He was together with them, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for the Father’s promise.

“This,” He said, “is what you heard from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

So when they had come together, they asked Him, “Lord, are You restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or periods that the Father has set by His own authority.

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come on you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

After He had said this, He was taken up as they were watching, and a cloud took Him out of their sight.

While He was going, they were gazing into heaven, and suddenly two men in white clothes stood by them. They said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up into heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come in the same way that you have seen Him going into heaven.

Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called the Mount of Olives, which is near Jerusalem—a Sabbath day’s journey away.
Acts 1:4-12 - Bible Gateway passage: Acts 1:4-12 - Holman Christian Standard Bible
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 19, 2017
3,485
1,045
Colorado
✟415,058.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Not so, at all...

The beautiful city is the Joel 3, Zechariah 14 of the matter and it goes far more Scripturally into detail than that. Cross reference feast. Magido... where Armageddon is derived from... and so on.

Not once has Israel been destroyed then the presence of God physically fights against all nations destroying it.

Acts 1 verified Jesus will return to the mount of Olives and Daniel locates the anti Christ final camp in Jerusalem... so... no... you’re ignoring context.

The dead are judged at the great white throne.

The Bible is painfully clear where that is.

I can even proof this with scripture that shows the 8th head of the hydra is shaping up and is focused against National Israel!

You do not many any sense. Not even a single verse to support your nonsenses
 
Upvote 0