1 Peter 3:21 and Mark 1:4 Which Type of Baptism?

Kris Jordan · May 8, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
No. While it is true that all have been objectively justified by Christ's work, since Christ died for all (Romans 5:18), the way God applies that objective work to us individually is through the Means He has established. Which is why St. Paul writes,

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? ...So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." - Romans 10:14-15,17

Salvation doesn't happen spontaneously out of no where, Christ commissioned His Apostles, and thus the Church, to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19) and to "and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem." (Luke 24:47)

Hence the universal work of Christ which is objectively for all comes to us through the Means God has Himself established; it is why the Church has been given the task of preaching the Word and administering the Sacraments, as we see right there in Scripture. That is how God has chosen to work to create and give us faith, through which we have been freely justified by God's grace.

Yes, that's the same analogy I used to hear all the time growing up in Evangelicalism. The problem with it is that it places the locus of our salvation upon us. It is up to us to do the right thing. Simply saying there is only one work we have to do in order to be saved doesn't stop it from being works.

Here is the more appropriate analogy, if I am a person of great wealth and I assign an inheritance to you and place it directly into your bank account, this gift and inheritance already belongs to you. It's yours, you don't have to take it, you don't have to come to me to take it from me--it's yours. It's in your possession. However, how can you benefit from this gift if you do not know about it? Unless someone tells you that it is in your bank account. If you have not heard, then you cannot believe, and unless you believe you cannot enjoy the benefits of the gift.

Forgiveness is yours in Christ, not by your decision, not by your choice, not by any work; but by what Christ has done. Period. But how can you benefit from Christ's work unless you hear it? How can you hear it unless it is told to you? And so the good news of this gift is presented and given to you, that you might hear the Gospel, that you might benefit from the Gospel. That upon hearing this Word, upon receiving this Word (which is a passive thing on your part), through the preaching of the Word and the administration of the Sacraments, you are now the benefactor of that good word. For what Christ has accomplished for you is yours, that through faith you might take possession of it; but this faith is not a work of your flesh, it is the gift of God. For without the Spirit giving you faith through God's Means you could not know or believe, but would remain ignorant of it, lost in the despair of your sin, knowing only the condemnation that comes from the Law.

If the will was free then men could choose and follow after God by their own devices, strength, effort, and works; and indeed it would have been said that there are those who follow after God and obey His commandments and they are thus justified by their righteous works. But that is not what the Scriptures say.

The Scriptures say that we were dead in our trespasses, held in bondage to sin and death, and that there is no one who loves God, no one who seeks after God, no one who does good, no one who is righteous--no, not even one. And that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That the wages of sin is death. That the heart is wicked and desperately sick, who can understand it? Therefore, at the right time, the time of God's own choosing, He sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, and that by the life, obedience, death, and resurrection of God's Son God has freely justified sinners. So that there is a justice that is apart form the Law, for indeed no one can be justified under the Law, there is instead that justice which is by faith in Christ, which is God's gift, pure gift.

If you rely on the depravity of your will to be justified, then you will only find death, for there is only death in your bones. Our salvation is found outside of us, in what Christ has accomplished for us, once and for all. Believe the good news.

-CryptoLutheran

Simply hearing the gospel doesn't save anyone. It must be received. In other words, it must be believed. One must put their faith in Jesus, trusting Him and Him alone for their salvation, which He provided when He lived a perfect holy life on their behalf and died in their place for their sin.

Following sacraments are of no effect when it comes to what saves someone. Salvation is on the basis of fait.

Although God is the one who has provided everything necessary for salvation in every aspect, including even the faith necessary to believe, sinners only receive that gift personally and have it “credited to their account” when they choose to turn away from their life of sin (repent) and personally place their faith in Jesus Christ for forgiveness and redemption.

God never forces Himself upon anyone, nor is salvation automatically imputed to sinners without personal repentance and faith in Christ being offered on their part. Salvation is a choice, both on the side of God and that of sinful man. From the very beginning, God had already chosen to save sinners because of His great love for them. He sent His Son to pay the penalty for their sin, so that they could be forgiven and reconciled to Him through the cross, because God is “not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9b). As a result, He is always ready to impart His saving grace to those who would come to Him in genuine, sincere faith. Likewise, man must also make the choice to personally receive that free gift of undeserved grace, by way of placing his faith in the completed and redemptive work of Jesus.

Therefore, when a person recognizes their own sinful state before God and their desperate need for a Savior, and humbly turns away from sin and turns toward Jesus, placing their faith in Him for what He did on the cross on their behalf, God immediately responds by granting them forgiveness and redemption, crediting Jesus’ righteousness to their account and sending the Holy Spirit to live inside of them to help them live a victorious life in Christ. This exchange occurs instanteously without God requiring any works of repentance to prove genuine faith is present, because He already knows when saving faith has been exercised. Aside from God’s gift of grace being imparted through faith, salvation cannot be obtained through any means; nor is there any Savior but Jesus Christ Himself (Acts 4:12).

What do these verses mean to you?

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Romans 5:1-2 (NKJV)

For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. John 6:40 (NASB)

...so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith; Philippians 3:8b-9 (NASB)

And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:11-13 (NKJV)

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Romans 3:28-30 (NKJV)

yeshuaslavejeff · May 8, 2019

shalom

ViaCrucis · May 8, 2019

Kris Jordan said:
What do these verses mean to you?

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Romans 5:1-2 (NKJV)

For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. John 6:40 (NASB)

...so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith; Philippians 3:8b-9 (NASB)

And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:11-13 (NKJV)

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Romans 3:28-30 (NKJV)

They mean exactly what they say.

We have been justified freely by God through faith. That all who have faith in Christ will be raised up on the last day. That we have no righteousness of our own, but instead the imputed righteousness of Christ. That all who have Christ have eternal life. That man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

In order that I don't have to simply repeat myself, go back to my previous posts. I think I've been pretty clear. Our salvation comes from God alone, by God's grace alone, accomplished by Christ alone, and granted to us through faith alone.

This is, however, at odds with false doctrines of Decisionism which you are advocating here. We are NOT saved by our works, not even our own "yes" to God. We are saved exclusively by Jesus Christ, by what He has done.

Following sacraments are of no effect when it comes to what saves someone. Salvation is on the basis of fait.

I don't know what "following sacraments" means. Nobody "follows sacraments", that's not a thing. The Sacrements are those things which Christ our Lord established through which God acts to accomplish His gracious good. Baptism is a Sacrament because God works through Baptism to accomplish His own purpose, which is just as Scripture says. The Lord's Supper is a Sacrament because God works through the Eucharist to accomplish His own purpose.

The Sacraments are God's works in the life of His Church.

-CryptoLutheran

Kris Jordan · May 8, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
They mean exactly what they say.

We have been justified freely by God through faith. That all who have faith in Christ will be raised up on the last day. That we have no righteousness of our own, but instead the imputed righteousness of Christ. That all who have Christ have eternal life. That man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

In order that I don't have to simply repeat myself, go back to my previous posts. I think I've been pretty clear. Our salvation comes from God alone, by God's grace alone, accomplished by Christ alone, and granted to us through faith alone.

This is, however, at odds with false doctrines of Decisionism which you are advocating here. We are NOT saved by our works, not even our own "yes" to God. We are saved exclusively by Jesus Christ, by what He has done.

I don't know what "following sacraments" means. Nobody "follows sacraments", that's not a thing. The Sacrements are those things which Christ our Lord established through which God acts to accomplish His gracious good. Baptism is a Sacrament because God works through Baptism to accomplish His own purpose, which is just as Scripture says. The Lord's Supper is a Sacrament because God works through the Eucharist to accomplish His own purpose.

The Sacraments are God's works in the life of His Church.

-CryptoLutheran

So you agree that one must place their faith in Jesus to be saved? And you agree that being water baptized saves no one? And you agree that partaking of communion doesn't save anyone?

ViaCrucis · May 8, 2019

Kris Jordan said:
So you agree that one must place their faith in Jesus to be saved? And you agree that being water baptized saves no one? And you agree that partaking of communion doesn't save anyone?

I believe that God saves us by what Christ has done, and that God works to apprehend and appropriate Christ's work to us through faith which He gives us through His Word and Sacraments. Of course Baptism is salvific, because God works through Baptism to do what He promised to do. And of course the Eucharist is salvific, because God works through the Eucharist to do what He promised to do.

Namely, Christ said that we are born again by water and the Spirit (John 3:5), which St. Paul echoes in Titus 3:5, namely that we have been saved not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Spirit. Likewise God has attached the Holy Spirit to His Sacrament, wherein St. Peter by the inspiration of the Spirit declares, "Repent and be baptized all of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38. And St. Paul declares that all who have been baptized have been baptized into Christ, buried with Christ, into His death and therefore have been raised up with Him through faith to new life (Romans 6:3-10, Colossians 2:16). Elsewhere the Apostle writes that Christ has cleansed His Church "by the washing of water by the word" (Ephesians 5:26). And St. Peter in his first epistle plainly says, "[the waters of the flood] prefigure baptism which now saves you, not by the washing of dirt from the body but from the pledge of a new conscience from God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21).

Likewise, Christ has said, "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day." (John 6:54). When He instituted the Holy Eucharist at His Last Supper He took bread and wine and declared them to be His own flesh and blood, saying, "This is My body which is given for you, do this for the remembrance of Me" and "This is cup is the New Covenant in My blood which is poured out for you" (Luke 22:19-20). And St. Paul writing in 1 Corinthians says, ""The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. Consider the people of Israel: are not those who eat of the sacrifices participants in the altar?" (1 Corinthians 10:16-18).

So, of course the Sacraments of Jesus Christ convey our salvation, because here in Baptism is God's own pledge, promise, and word that we belong to Jesus Christ, have been born again of God, received the Holy Spirit, are alive to God, raised up with Jesus to share in His life. We are therefore children of God by adoption, new creations in Jesus Christ. We who were formerly dead have been made alive by the power and grace of God which is in Jesus Christ. And likewise we have here, in and under the bread and wine, the very flesh and blood of Jesus Christ broken and shed for us, how could it not matter? It is Christ Himself. The working of God is nothing to be despised, but instead to be cherished and magnified, for the works of man are evil and worthless, but the works of God are great and accomplishes our very salvation. For Christ has died for all, not just some; and the gift and calling of God is for all, not just some. And so the Church's sacred ministry is to be the people of God's Word and Sacraments, even as Christ Himself commissioned.

God's word is true, let us receive it with full confession; not despising any of it.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · May 8, 2019

As a little exercise, let's examine the way we're using our language.

When talking about salvation are we placing the locus of salvation on God, or on man?

I think it should be enlightening to notice the contrast between "I"/"you"/"we" and "God"/"Christ"/"Him"/"He", and to consider what that means when we talk about salvation.

-CryptoLutheran

yeshuaslavejeff · May 8, 2019

There's what, a half dozen or more things that Ekklesia are "saved" from , according to Scripture, right ?

"Salvation" and "Healing" being said to be the same word in Scripture (in places),
that
opens up even more things that people can be saved from . (healed)

Daily.

ViaCrucis · May 8, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
You missed the point Via. We are saved by grace and faith, not grace alone.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He sent his only begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life."

Babies cannot "believe in Him" because they are not yet mentally able to understand there is such a thing as a supernatural God who can make a virgin pregnant, resurrect His Son, and be everywhere constantly.

So you believe that salvation is a work of cooperation between man and God?

If you believe this, then I have to ask, what stops you from becoming Catholic or Orthodox? That is not an attack on you, or on our Catholic and Orthodox brethren, it's a genuine inquiry.

If salvation is a synergistic activity that involves God's offer and our efforts to cooperate in and with God's grace, that is precisely what Catholics and Orthodox believe.

If the doctrine of Justification by Grace alone through faith is false, then the Protestant Reformation is a farce, and "Protestantism" is nothing more than open schism and rebellion against Jesus Christ and His Church.

-CryptoLutheran

yeshuaslavejeff · May 8, 2019

I don't think those questions can truthfully and Scripturally be answered in the GT section.

Kris Jordan · May 8, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
I believe that God saves us by what Christ has done, and that God works to apprehend and appropriate Christ's work to us through faith which He gives us through His Word and Sacraments. Of course Baptism is salvific, because God works through Baptism to do what He promised to do. And of course the Eucharist is salvific, because God works through the Eucharist to do what He promised to do.

Namely, Christ said that we are born again by water and the Spirit (John 3:5), which St. Paul echoes in Titus 3:5, namely that we have been saved not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Spirit. Likewise God has attached the Holy Spirit to His Sacrament, wherein St. Peter by the inspiration of the Spirit declares, "Repent and be baptized all of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38. And St. Paul declares that all who have been baptized have been baptized into Christ, buried with Christ, into His death and therefore have been raised up with Him through faith to new life (Romans 6:3-10, Colossians 2:16). Elsewhere the Apostle writes that Christ has cleansed His Church "by the washing of water by the word" (Ephesians 5:26). And St. Peter in his first epistle plainly says, "[the waters of the flood] prefigure baptism which now saves you, not by the washing of dirt from the body but from the pledge of a new conscience from God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21).

Likewise, Christ has said, "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day." (John 6:54). When He instituted the Holy Eucharist at His Last Supper He took bread and wine and declared them to be His own flesh and blood, saying, "This is My body which is given for you, do this for the remembrance of Me" and "This is cup is the New Covenant in My blood which is poured out for you" (Luke 22:19-20). And St. Paul writing in 1 Corinthians says, ""The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. Consider the people of Israel: are not those who eat of the sacrifices participants in the altar?" (1 Corinthians 10:16-18).

So, of course the Sacraments of Jesus Christ convey our salvation, because here in Baptism is God's own pledge, promise, and word that we belong to Jesus Christ, have been born again of God, received the Holy Spirit, are alive to God, raised up with Jesus to share in His life. We are therefore children of God by adoption, new creations in Jesus Christ. We who were formerly dead have been made alive by the power and grace of God which is in Jesus Christ. And likewise we have here, in and under the bread and wine, the very flesh and blood of Jesus Christ broken and shed for us, how could it not matter? It is Christ Himself. The working of God is nothing to be despised, but instead to be cherished and magnified, for the works of man are evil and worthless, but the works of God are great and accomplishes our very salvation. For Christ has died for all, not just some; and the gift and calling of God is for all, not just some. And so the Church's sacred ministry is to be the people of God's Word and Sacraments, even as Christ Himself commissioned.

God's word is true, let us receive it with full confession; not despising any of it.

-CryptoLutheran

So to sum up your belief, a person doesn't even have to put their faith in Jesus to be saved...it's automatically imparted to them (saving faith and salvation) when they hear the gospel message?

GodLovesCats · May 8, 2019

Not cooperation; that would be negotiating with the Lord in prayer. Grace allows people who have faith to enter God's Kingdom. Jesus took the first step, giving us grace without any responsibility on our part. The Bible is clear that sinners have to take a step forward ourselves by choosing ot have faith in Him.

yeshuaslavejeff · May 8, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
Not cooperation; that would be negotiating with the Lord in prayer. Grace allows people who have faith to enter God's Kingdom. Jesus took the first step, giving us grace without any responsibility on our part. The Bible is clear that sinners have to take a step forward ourselves by choosing ot have faith in Him.

True that without faith it is impossible to please God.

Also, if someone has faith in God, trusting and relying on Him, and says so,
then
they will also do as He Says;
otherwise, as it is written in 1 John, they are a liar, without light,
and the truth is not in them.

ViaCrucis · May 8, 2019

Kris Jordan said:
So to sum up your belief, a person doesn't even have to put their faith in Jesus to be saved...it's automatically imparted to them (saving faith and salvation) when they hear the gospel message?

It is through the word that God creates faith, that we might believe and trust in Jesus Christ our Lord. We can resist and reject the Gospel, but nevertheless it is God who works through the Gospel to give us faith and save us.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · May 8, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
Not cooperation; that would be negotiating with the Lord in prayer. Grace allows people who have faith to enter God's Kingdom. Jesus took the first step, giving us grace without any responsibility on our part. The Bible is clear that sinners have to take a step forward ourselves by choosing ot have faith in Him.

That would be synergism, cooperating with God's grace. When you say "sinners have to take a step forward ourselves", that's cooperation. When you say "Grace allows people" that is cooperation. It is to say that grace is something God infuses in people to strengthen them, that they might turn to God in faith and love.

-CryptoLutheran

TheSeabass · May 9, 2019

Natsumi Lam said:
Hi Family,

Which baptism is this verse talking about? Strongs 908

Could it be a non-literal baptism but Christ's baptism unto death and our identification with Him in it? Or does it literally mean the act of water baptism? Why?

The same Strongs 908 is used in Mark 1:4.

How does this keep or change your belief of which baptism you chose?

1 Peter 3:21
3:21 Size: BYZ / TR | figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save (5719) us * (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Mark 1:
1:4 Size: BYZ / TR | John did (5633) baptize (5723) in the wilderness, and preach (5723) the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Col 2:12
2:12 [ Greek Font Size: BYZ / TR | with (5651) him in baptism, wherein * * also ye are risen with (5681) him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised (5660) him from the dead.

~Natsumi Lam~

Mark 1:4 was John's baptism which was water baptism John 3:23. John's water baptism was replaced by Christ's baptism at Pentecost (Acts 2:38; 1 Peter 3:21; Col 2:12) which is the "one baptism" (Ephesians 4:4-5) that is in effect today which is also water baptism (Acts 8:36-38).

1 Peter 3:21 and Mark 1:4 Which Type of Baptism?

Acts 4:12

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