OSAS....= is Grace

JLB777

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Actually, I did not make your point.

but to those (unbelievers) who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath. *I fixed it for you. *The latter is descriptive of unbelievers, not believers.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). - descriptive of believers.


So you agree, only those believers who do good will be given eternal life.


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;


but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath



Only believers who are obeyers of the truth will receive eternal life.


Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). - descriptive of unbelievers.


All who do not receive eternal life are those who do evil.


Are saying it’s somehow impossible for believers to do evil?




JLB
 
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JLB777

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We wait for it in expectation of what is sure (certain). - Strong's #1680 elpís. Not in uncertain hope with fingers crossed, like I hope I get a promotion at work.


The word you are looking for is confidence.


That is what faith is, the substance or confidence of things hoped for.


However, during a believers life on earth they must continue in the faith, to receive the end result of faith, which is the salvation of our soul.


If they depart from the faith then they no longer have the substance of the thing they hope for, which is salvation.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1




JLB
 
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Danthemailman

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So you agree, only those believers who do good will be given eternal life.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

Only believers who are obeyers of the truth will receive eternal life.

All who do not receive eternal life are those who do evil.

Are saying it’s somehow impossible for believers to do evil?

JLB
Only believers are described as those who do good. Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. You need to stop reading Romans 2:6-8 through the lens of "performance based" works salvation. God will "render to each one according to his deeds" does not mean that believers merit eternal life based on good deeds (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) which you sound overconfident about.

As I previously explained, if one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of, obtaining salvation.

Only believers are obeyers of the truth and will receive eternal life. Without faith, it's impossible to please God, yet it's not impossible for believers to perform isolated acts of evil (all sin is evil) and believers are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time, yet the overall prevailing, descriptive characteristic of a believer is "patient continuance in doing good seeking for glory, honor, and immortality." In 1 John 3:7-10, John gives us a CONTRAST between children of God and children of the devil.
 
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Danthemailman

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The word you are looking for is confidence.

That is what faith is, the substance or confidence of things hoped for.

However, during a believers life on earth they must continue in the faith, to receive the end result of faith, which is the salvation of our soul.

If they depart from the faith then they no longer have the substance of the thing they hope for, which is salvation.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

JLB
The KJV reads - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The NASB reads - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

The AMP reads - Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses].

Authentic, saving faith in Christ continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Sadly, those who obsess over continuing in the faith (as if it's a difficult struggle to do so and over confidently believe they will do so, but many others around them will fail to do so) tend to have more confidence in their performance and ability to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and help save themselves by works and lack confidence in the ALL-sufficient means of salvation/Christ's finished work of redemption/death, burial and resurrection of Christ (Romans 3:24; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Such people also lack confidence in the Lord's preservation of His saints (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1). I've had numerous discussions with such people in the past, which in many cases, turn out to be "nominal" Christians. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

In regards to "departing from the faith," in 1 Timothy 4:1, we read - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods (where have we heard this before?) which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

You obviously assume that "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. The words "the faith" (Greek tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. I've seen this happen multiple times.

Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions, like Roman Catholicism for example. That does not prove such people were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

I believe the beginning of such a major departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced as the Roman Catholic church began to rise in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church forbids it's clergy to marry. This same church has other demonic doctrines such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, papal infallibility, worship of Mary etc..
 
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JLB777

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Only believers are described as those who do good. Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.


Here is who will receive eternal life.


eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7



JLB
 
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JLB777

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The KJV reads - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The NASB reads - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

The AMP reads - Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses].

Authentic, saving faith in Christ continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Sadly, those who obsess over continuing in the faith (as if it's a difficult struggle to do so and over confidently believe they will do so, but many others around them will fail to do so) tend to have more confidence in their performance and ability to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and help save themselves by works and lack confidence in the ALL-sufficient means of salvation/Christ's finished work of redemption/death, burial and resurrection of Christ (Romans 3:24; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Such people also lack confidence in the Lord's preservation of His saints (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1). I've had numerous discussions with such people in the past, which in many cases, turn out to be "nominal" Christians. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

In regards to "departing from the faith," in 1 Timothy 4:1, we read - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods (where have we heard this before?) which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

You obviously assume that "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. The words "the faith" (Greek tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. I've seen this happen multiple times.

Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions, like Roman Catholicism for example. That does not prove such people were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

I believe the beginning of such a major departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced as the Roman Catholic church began to rise in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church forbids it's clergy to marry. This same church has other demonic doctrines such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, papal infallibility, worship of Mary etc..


All the different bible versions in the world won’t change the truth.


Those who have faith in Christ have the hope of salvation, as long as they continue in the faith.



JLB
 
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JLB777

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We wait for it in expectation of what is sure (certain). - Strong's #1680 elpís. Not in uncertain hope with fingers crossed, like I hope I get a promotion at work.


Yes the salvation He has for us is sure.


The question is are we going to continue in the faith, when our faith is put to the test?


Are we willing to depart from Him under the threat of persecution, and death, in order to save our life or the life of our family?


Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Revelation 2:10



And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” Acts 14:21-22






JLB
 
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JLB777

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We wait for it in expectation of what is sure (certain). - Strong's #1680 elpís. Not in uncertain hope with fingers crossed, like I hope I get a promotion at work.


Yes the salvation He has for us is sure.


The question is are we going to continue n the faith, when our faith is put to the test?


Are we willing to depart from Him under the threat of persecution, and death?


Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Revelation 2:10
 
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Danthemailman

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Here is who will receive eternal life.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

JLB
Yes, which is descriptive of believers, not unbelievers. Here is who will receive eternal life, which is prescriptive. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

All the different bible versions in the world won’t change the truth.

Those who have faith in Christ have the hope of salvation, as long as they continue in the faith.
The truth still stands. Only those who have authentic faith in Christ have the certain hope of salvation and only they will continue in the faith. Sadly, there are numerous "nominal" Christians who are associated with various false religions and cults who cling to works salvation and have a counterfeit faith and hope and continue in that instead, only to their demise. :(

Yes the salvation He has for us is sure.
Yes, for those who are truly born of God.

The question is are we going to continue in the faith, when our faith is put to the test?

Are we willing to depart from Him under the threat of persecution, and death, in order to save our life or the life of our family?
This separates the genuine believers from the make believers. What if a believer never faces this kind of persecution or death in their lifetime? God puts our faith to the test in other ways as well. Not all believers will face extreme persecution in their lifetime, but will still face various trials.

Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Revelation 2:10
If this verse teaches that we must be "faithful enough" in addition to placing our faith in Christ for salvation, then just "how faithful would you have to be?" Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "faithful enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? That is vague and could include ANY number of good works. This verse is meant to be an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. Jesus was not telling these Christians that if they are not "faithful enough" in addition to having faith in Him that they will not receive eternal life. That is salvation by works! The Lord was telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there!

*In the very next verse, Jesus said - "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." 1 John 5:4, we read - "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ONLY BELIEVERS are saved, overcome, and are faithful unto death (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:9). Unbelievers are not saved, do not overcome and are unfaithful unto death.

I'll never forget several years ago while still a teenager, I had temporarily attended a church that perverted the gospel by teaching salvation by works and they taught that "only their church" was the "true church," then several years later, after I had received Christ through faith and was now a born again believer, I ran into a woman who still attended that church and I shared the good news with her about my born again experience. She asked me if I had "remained faithful" and she quoted Revelation 2:10, yet her interpretation of remaining faithful was, "did I still attend her church and hold to all of it's teachings?" When I told her that I no longer attended her church and explained that her church teaches false doctrine, she implied that I have not remained faithful and was now doomed. :rolleyes:

*Such people need to heed the words of Paul in 2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” Acts 14:21-22
Of course they would exhort these many new disciples to continue in the faith, which is follow up work for new converts. Yet not all who set out to be a disciples of Jesus truly are his disciples, as we see in John 6:60-64. After Jesus’ teaching in John 6:60, we see that "many of his disciples said, "this is a difficult statement, who can listen to it?" These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (John 6:64). They also walked with Him no more. They did not continue. In John 8:31, Jesus said - If we continue in His word, then we are TRULY His disciples. Those who fail to continue in His word demonstrate that they are NOT TRULY His disciples, hence the exhortation in Acts 14:22.

For believers, the Bible says our salvation is guaranteed, represented by the seal of the Holy Spirit, in which believers are sealed until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto/for the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Corinthians 1:22-23; 2 Corinthians 5:5). :oldthumbsup: It says the Lord has promised not to lose any of His (John 6:37-40) that no one can snatch us out of His hand (John 10:27-30), or separate us from His love (Romans 8:38-39). Whom He justified, these He also glorified (Romans 8:30). *ALL of them. His saints are preserved forever (Psalm 37:28). Praise the Lord! :)
 
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JLB777

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Yes, which is descriptive of believers, not unbelievers. Here is who will receive eternal life, which is prescriptive. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Brother


Unbelievers are not in the equation. They are lost.

It doesn’t matter what they do or don’t do, they are without Christ.

Tell me you understand this.


This is about the Day of Judgement and who will receive eternal life among Gods people.


He Judges each one of us according to our deeds, and renders accordingly.

Unbelievers are not in this Judgement, as they are gathered up and cast into the fire.


Believers should be walking according to the Spirit rather than the flesh, but not all Christians understand this nor do this.


All throughout the book of Romans Paul admonishes Christians to walk according to the Spirit.


Those who are in Christ who do not walk according to the flesh are not under condemnation.


Those who are in Christ, but walk according to the flesh, are under condemnation as we see, from the Day of Judgement in Romans 2.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


Here are those who are in Christ, who did not walk according to the flesh but rather they by the Spirit, chose to do good and walk in love and righteousness, because they sought for honor.


  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;


But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:5-11




JLB
 
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Danthemailman

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Brother

Unbelievers are not in the equation. They are lost.

It doesn’t matter what they do or don’t do, they are without Christ.

Tell me you understand this.
Unbelievers certainly are in the equation. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; (BELIEVERS) but he who does not believe is condemned already, (UNBELIEVERS) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This is about the Day of Judgement and who will receive eternal life among Gods people.

He Judges each one of us according to our deeds, and renders accordingly.

Unbelievers are not in this Judgement, as they are gathered up and cast into the fire.
Unbelievers will certainly be judged and condemned (Revelation 20:11-15) and some (like these scribes and Pharisees) will receive greater condemnation according to Jesus (Matthew 13:24). Believers will be judged according to their works in order to receive rewards and loss of rewards and not condemnation (1 Corinthians 3:11-15). God's people are not divided up into two separate camps. There are only sheep (believers) and goats (unbelievers) - John 3:18. There are no shoats! Believers are described as "those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality...everyone who does good" (Romans 2:7,10).

Unbelievers are described as "those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness...everyone who does evil." (Romans 2:8,9).

Believers should be walking according to the Spirit rather than the flesh, but not all Christians understand this nor do this.

All throughout the book of Romans Paul admonishes Christians to walk according to the Spirit.

Those who are in Christ who do not walk according to the flesh are not under condemnation.

Those who are in Christ, but walk according to the flesh, are under condemnation as we see, from the Day of Judgement in Romans 2.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
You need to stop reading scripture through the lens of performance based works salvation. It leads to self righteous conclusions and confusion. If a person’s intent is to live according to the flesh, it’s an indication they are not saved. Yet if a person, by the Spirit is putting to death the deeds of the body, it's an indication they are saved.

Romans 8:13 (AMP) - for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever.

Also, just because a letter is addressed to "brethren" does not mean that everyone in a group of "professing" believers is a genuine believer. It's not difficult to find wolves in sheep's clothing among the sheep, even on various Christian Bible discussion forums. *How about some context: Romans 8:5 - For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

Paul sets up a CONTRAST between those who live according to the flesh (unbelievers/false brethren) and those who live according to the Spirit (believers). In verses 8-9, Paul clearly states - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. See the Contrast? Now of course Paul is writing to believers (yet it's not hard to find unbelievers/false brethren mixed in with a group of believers) as we see all throughout scripture. (Matthew 7:15-23; 13:24-30; John 6:64-71; 1 John 2:19; Galatians 2:4; Jude 1:3-24 etc..).

So there are distinctively two groups in Romans 8. The present tense is used to denote lifestyles. Those consistently walking according to the flesh in verse 5 are linked to "being in the flesh" in verse 8. And those who "walk according to the Spirit" in verse 5 are linked to "those who are no longer in the flesh" in verse 9. *Tell me you understand this.

Here are those who are in Christ, who did not walk according to the flesh but rather they by the Spirit, chose to do good and walk in love and righteousness, because they sought for honor.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
Yes, this is descriptive of those who are in Christ/believers. :oldthumbsup:

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:5-11
So once again we see the CONTRAST between those who will receive eternal life (those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality...everyone who works what is good - descriptive of BELIEVERS) and those who will not receive eternal life (those who are self seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness...every soul of man who does evil - descriptive of UNBELIEVERS).
 
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JLB777

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Unbelievers certainly are in the equation. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; (BELIEVERS) but he who does not believe is condemned already, (UNBELIEVERS) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Believers who disobey Christ will be Judged at the Judgement seat of Christ along with all the Church.


Nothing will change the truth.


Here are the Christians who will receive eternal life at the end of the Day.


eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7



Do you believe that unbelievers who do good will receive eternal life?




JLB
 
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JLB777

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Unbelievers certainly are in the equation. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; (BELIEVERS) but he who does not believe is condemned already, (UNBELIEVERS) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Unbelievers will certainly be judged and condemned (Revelation 20:11-15) and some (like these scribes and Pharisees) will receive greater condemnation according to Jesus (Matthew 13:24). Believers will be judged according to their works in order to receive rewards and loss of rewards and not condemnation (1 Corinthians 3:11-15). God's people are not divided up into two separate camps. There are only sheep (believers) and goats (unbelievers) - John 3:18. There are no shoats! Believers are described as "those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality...everyone who does good" (Romans 2:7,10).

Unbelievers are described as "those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness...everyone who does evil." (Romans 2:8,9).

You need to stop reading scripture through the lens of performance based works salvation. It leads to self righteous conclusions and confusion. If a person’s intent is to live according to the flesh, it’s an indication they are not saved. Yet if a person, by the Spirit is putting to death the deeds of the body, it's an indication they are saved.

Romans 8:13 (AMP) - for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever.

Also, just because a letter is addressed to "brethren" does not mean that everyone in a group of "professing" believers is a genuine believer. It's not difficult to find wolves in sheep's clothing among the sheep, even on various Christian Bible discussion forums. *How about some context: Romans 8:5 - For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

Paul sets up a CONTRAST between those who live according to the flesh (unbelievers/false brethren) and those who live according to the Spirit (believers). In verses 8-9, Paul clearly states - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. See the Contrast? Now of course Paul is writing to believers (yet it's not hard to find unbelievers/false brethren mixed in with a group of believers) as we see all throughout scripture. (Matthew 7:15-23; 13:24-30; John 6:64-71; 1 John 2:19; Galatians 2:4; Jude 1:3-24 etc..).

So there are distinctively two groups in Romans 8. The present tense is used to denote lifestyles. Those consistently walking according to the flesh in verse 5 are linked to "being in the flesh" in verse 8. And those who "walk according to the Spirit" in verse 5 are linked to "those who are no longer in the flesh" in verse 9. *Tell me you understand this.

Yes, this is descriptive of those who are in Christ/believers. :oldthumbsup:

So once again we see the CONTRAST between those who will receive eternal life (those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality...everyone who works what is good - descriptive of BELIEVERS) and those who will not receive eternal life (those who are self seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness...every soul of man who does evil - descriptive of UNBELIEVERS).



Not one thing in this post addresses the biblical truth that born again Christians who walk according to the flesh are under condemnation.



Christians who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.


All your denial will never change that truth.



Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21



Here is how the Lord instructs His people to avoid living from the flesh and practicing the works of the flesh.



I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16





JLB
 
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redleghunter

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Unbelievers are not in the equation. They are lost.

It doesn’t matter what they do or don’t do, they are without Christ.

Tell me you understand this.


This is about the Day of Judgement and who will receive eternal life among Gods people.


He Judges each one of us according to our deeds, and renders accordingly.

Unbelievers are not in this Judgement, as they are gathered up and cast into the fire.


Believers should be walking according to the Spirit rather than the flesh, but not all Christians understand this nor do this.


All throughout the book of Romans Paul admonishes Christians to walk according to the Spirit.


Those who are in Christ who do not walk according to the flesh are not under condemnation.


Those who are in Christ, but walk according to the flesh, are under condemnation as we see, from the Day of Judgement in Romans 2.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


Here are those who are in Christ, who did not walk according to the flesh but rather they by the Spirit, chose to do good and walk in love and righteousness, because they sought for honor.


  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;


But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:5-11




JLB
If Christians meet the Judgment lacking in deeds then that means they somehow became unbelievers. The suffer the same fate.

How do you explain this? How does one even know they are a believer or not?
 
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JLB777

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If Christians meet the Judgment lacking in deeds then that means they somehow became unbelievers. The suffer the same fate.

How do you explain this? How does one even know they are a believer or not?


Believer means obeyer.


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB
 
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redleghunter

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Believer means obeyer.


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB
Therefore we know that He abides in us by the Spirit Whom He has given us.
 
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redleghunter

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But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:5-11
On the doing good portion above...what does Paul say in the next chapter? I ask because in chapter 1 Paul makes an indictment of Gentiles and then in chapter 2 shows even the Jews are lost.

Back to doing good and seeking goodness or even seeking God:

Romans 3: NASB

9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVEBECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING ANDBITTERNESS”;

15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”
 
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redleghunter

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If this verse teaches that we must be "faithful enough" in addition to placing our faith in Christ for salvation, then just "how faithful would you have to be?"
That’s what puzzles me. No one would have any assurance if they keep guessing if they crossed some undefined threshold.

Frankly that’s what the adversary wants us to think.
 
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redleghunter

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Are we willing to depart from Him under the threat of persecution, and death?
That’s what He asks of us. Yet 11 of His closest friends abandoned Him in Gethsemane and one of them denied Him three times. Yet Jesus hours earlier called them all “clean” except for Judas (John chapters 13-15).
 
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JLB777

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That’s what He asks of us. Yet 11 of His closest friends abandoned Him in Gethsemane and one of them denied Him three times. Yet Jesus hours earlier called them all “clean” except for Judas (John chapters 13-15).


When were His 11 disciples being persecuted, and when did they turn back to Judaism?




JLB
 
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