Can the Church Survive Without God's Word?

Can the church survive without God's word?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 17 43.6%
  • No.

    Votes: 22 56.4%

  • Total voters
    39

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That is the argument of an economic rationalist. Pray is not simply about intercession and petition, it is also about confession, thanksgiving, love and community. Pray is not simply about getting God to take our side, it is also and perhaps more importantly about getting us on God's side.

So the answer to your question is simply that it is above my pay grade, however it does affirm seriously my belief in the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

Death is swallowed up in victory

Nowhere does the Bible say we can pray for the dead. What good would it do them? If they are in hell, how would we help them? Are they not being punished there for a reason? If they are in God's paradise, what could our prayer improve upon their awesome stay there?

In the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man we learn that the Rich-man could not change his situation of punishment even by his own begging to Abraham. Did Abraham or Lazarus pray for the Rich-man? No. What of the Rich-man's living family?

27 "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:27-31).​

It seems like the dead cannot truly affect the living, but they are to hear Moses and the prophets (Which would have included them preaching from Scripture, the Torah at that time).

The Rich-man also did not have any hope of his situation changing, either. Abraham said this to him:

25 "But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."
(Luke 16:25-26).​

Abraham did not say that the Rich-man could hold out hope that somebody could pray for him in the land of the living to change his situation.
 
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Paul did not quote from the Apocryphal book: "Wisdom of Solomon." There are numerous problems with this book to begin with. It says in Solomon 11:17 that God created the universe out of formless matter. It teaches the false doctrine of the pre-existence of the soul (Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20). Wisdom of Solomon 7:26 says, "“She [wisdom] is a reflection of eternal light..." Yet, 1 Timothy 6:15-16 says that Jesus alone possesses immortality and He dwells in the light (the light of God the Father) that no man can approach. So no. Paul would not quote something that has such obvious errors. More than likely the Wisdom of Solomon was written after the works of Paul and made it look like he was quoting this book (When in reality he never did).
 
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Philip_B

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Nowhere does the Bible say we can pray for the dead. What good would it do them? If they are in hell, how would we help them? Are they not being punished there for a reason? If they are in God's paradise, what could our prayer improve upon their awesome stay there?

In the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man we learn that the Rich-man could not change his situation of punishment even by his own begging to Abraham. Did Abraham or Lazarus pray for the Rich-man? No. What of the Rich-man's living family?

27 "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:27-31).​

It seems like the dead cannot truly affect the living, but they are to hear Moses and the prophets (Which would have included them preaching from Scripture, the Torah at that time).

The Rich-man also did not have any hope of his situation changing, either. Abraham said this to him:

25 "But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."
(Luke 16:25-26).​

Abraham did not say that the Rich-man could hold out hope that somebody could pray for him in the land of the living to change his situation.
and still yet

death is swallowed up in victory!
 
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66 is an evil number?

66 = The Earthly House of God (compounded or repeated twice).

I see the:
1st 6 as the Incarnation with the Word made flesh; And the:
2nd 6 as the men of God being inspired by the Holy Spirit to write Scripture.​

The Bible talks about how God is called the "Invisible God." Clearly God's number is 7. So the number 7 (an invisible 7) would be added to 66 in some way or variation.
 
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Philip_B

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66 = The Earthly House of God (compounded or repeated twice).

I see the:
1st 6 as the Incarnation with the Word made flesh; And the:
2nd 6 as the men of God being inspired by the Holy Spirit to write Scripture.​

The Bible talks about how God called the "Invisible God." Clearly God's number is 7. So the number 7 (an invisible 7) would be added to 66 in some way or variation.
66+7=73
 
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Eloy Craft

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So Peter wrote his letters before Pentecost? Peter was not guided into truth as he wrote to other believers? I find that hard to believe.
Why does it matter when Peter wrote what Jesus said?
 
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Eloy Craft

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Then 1 John 2:27, and 2 Timothy 2:15 are useless nonsense.
Maybe you apply this scripture wrongly. Those he writes to are highly distinguished.

I am writing to you, little children,
because your sins are forgiven on account of his name.
13 I am writing to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I am writing to you, young people,
because you have conquered the evil one.
14 I write to you, children,
because you know the Father.
I write to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young people,
because you are strong
and the word of God abides in you,

and you have overcome the evil one.
 
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Eloy Craft

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Perhaps there is misunderstanding

Did they spend the Gospel by word yes for the Bible lets us into this knowledge Paul in his writing also say WHEN he Is gone WOLVES will enter in if the Bible would have been compiled at this point the wolves would not of been able to lead any astray for all a person would have to do is check the wolves false doctrine to that of the doctrine of Christ what happened after Paul the church fell apart evil men took over and distorted the Gospel to prop themselves up

Why do you think it took so long for all the letters to be spread which showed the error of the church im not protastant however can no one see that when Luther started reading what did he realize he realized the church had been lying to everyone for like Paul said the wolves would mislead if possible even the elect
Gregory, evil men have been trying to take over the Church since the beginning, and still are. There have always been men who position themselves in the Church to prop them selves up, and still are. There have always been wolves, and still are, but Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail. As St. Paul taught, it's not possible to mislead the elect. Truth is still on earth.
 
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Gregory95

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Where did Paul say that for was Peter not decived on circumcision and Paul had to correct him?

How can it be plainly seen who is false if we don't look at the doctrine of Christ which was written for us to study for truly some false teachers are crafty

Is it not written demons will be made like angels of light (its a false light)

Matthew 24:24
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect
Gregory, evil men have been trying to take over the Church since the beginning, and still are. There have always been men who position themselves in the Church to prop them selves up, and still are. There have always been wolves, and still are, but Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail. As St. Paul taught, it's not possible to mislead the elect. Truth is still on earth.
 
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Eloy Craft

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Where did Paul say that for was Peter not decived on circumcision and Paul had to correct him?
Well, he wasn't deceived he was afraid of the wolves. If he were deceived he wouldn't be living like a Gentile when the wolvesd weren't around. When they came he started acting like he was trying to get the Gentiles to act like Jews. The wolves wanted Peter to betray Jesus by turning the New Covenant back into the Old Covenant. So, Paul said this to him;

Gal. 2
“If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”


How can it be plainly seen who is false if we don't look at the doctrine of Christ which was written for us to study for truly some false teachers are crafty
Faith is through hearing. Really, if all we had were scriptures, by this time in history Jesus would be long forgotten.

Is it not written demons will be made like angels of light (its a false light)
We have seen those angels fool many and divide the faith. We have seen many. Muhammed received his revelation from an angel as did Joseph smith.

Matthew 24:24
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect
So, somewhere on earth the faith is taught without error.:wink: What good are the words of sacred scriptures if there is no one promised 'All Truth' so as to know what was true about what they mean?

If there were.a community on earth that taught the faith in Jesus, a faith in Jesus that was 'all' true. They don't know it all but what they do know is true. What would that look like??
 
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Jason0047 said:
But the Scriptures say that you will be led into all truth by the Spirit.
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." (John 16:13).
Eloy Craft said:
He was speaking of Pentecost. The Apostles received the Spirit Jesus was teaching them about.The Church at Pentecost received the Spirit.
Jason0047 said:
So Peter wrote his letters before Pentecost? Peter was not guided into truth as he wrote to other believers? I find that hard to believe.
Why does it matter when Peter wrote what Jesus said?

If you were to follow our stream of conversation above, you were suggesting or implying that Peter would only be led into all truth at just Pentecost alone (Which is not true). Peter also wrote portions of Scripture by the Holy Spirit. Peter was being led into truth as the Spirit worked through Him to write those portions of Scripture we now have in our Bibles (i.e. 1st Peter, and 2nd Peter). For do you think the Spirit stopped working in Peter's life after Pentecost?
 
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Why didn't the author write 'you will be led into Truth by the spirit. Is there a difference?

Do you think that we cannot be led to understand the Scriptures by the Holy Spirit today?
 
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Jason0047 said:
Then 1 John 2:27, and 2 Timothy 2:15 are useless nonsense.
Maybe you apply this scripture wrongly. Those he writes to are highly distinguished.

I am writing to you, little children,
because your sins are forgiven on account of his name.
13 I am writing to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I am writing to you, young people,
because you have conquered the evil one.
14 I write to you, children,
because you know the Father.
I write to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young people,
because you are strong
and the word of God abides in you,

and you have overcome the evil one.

You are offering no real commentary to defend your viewpoint here. Just highlighting the verses does not help to prove what you actually believe here. I am in agreement with the context here. John is talking to certain believers who have overcome the devil and walk in the Lord's commandments and grace (and they abide and know God). It does not undo the truth that they were anointed by the Holy Ghost to teach them all things (Whereby they do not need any man to teach them). This is still a reality or truth for believers today because there is nowhere in the Bible that says that this has anointing by the Spirit for believers to be taught God's Word has stopped.

Also, how do you explain 2 Timothy 2:15 that says we are to study (the Scriptures) to show ourselves approved unto God? I see that as how we MUST study God's Word the Bible as a part of our being approved unto God (Just as it says). But many here regulate the Bible as being second fiddle or some kind of small inferior thing as a part of their faith.
 
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Well, he wasn't deceived he was afraid of the wolves. If he were deceived he wouldn't be living like a Gentile when the wolvesd weren't around. When they came he started acting like he was trying to get the Gentiles to act like Jews. The wolves wanted Peter to betray Jesus by turning the New Covenant back into the Old Covenant. So, Paul said this to him;

Gal. 2
“If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”


Faith is through hearing. Really, if all we had were scriptures, by this time in history Jesus would be long forgotten.

We have seen those angels fool many and divide the faith. We have seen many. Muhammed received his revelation from an angel as did Joseph smith.

So, somewhere on earth the faith is taught without error.:wink: What good are the words of sacred scriptures if there is no one promised 'All Truth' so as to know what was true about what they mean?

If there were.a community on earth that taught the faith in Jesus, a faith in Jesus that was 'all' true. They don't know it all but what they do know is true. What would that look like??

Peter denied the Lord three times. Peter also tried to prevent the Lord from being crucified (of which Jesus rebuked Peter with some harsh words). Peter also took up a sword and chopped off a guy's ear when Jesus did not desire Peter to do that. So no. It is possible for believers to be fall into their own mode of deception.
 
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Of course not.

Then the Spirit was leading Peter into all truth after Pentecost (Which was my point).
Peter was not exclusively led into all truth at Pentecost alone.
 
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Eloy Craft

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ou are offering no real commentary to defend your viewpoint here. Just highlighting the verses does not help to prove what you actually believe here. I am in agreement with the context here. John is talking to certain believers who have overcome the devil and walk in the Lord's commandments and grace (and they abide and know God). It does not undo the truth that they were anointed by the Holy Ghost to teach them all things (Whereby they do not need any man to teach them). This is still a reality or truth for believers today because there is nowhere in the Bible that says that this has anointing by the Spirit for believers to be taught God's Word has stopped.
Right. They are annointed with a special charism.

Also, how do you explain 2 Timothy 2:15 that says we are to study (the Scriptures) to show ourselves approved unto God?
God reveals to thei mind things, and what is revealed is interpreted and that interpretation must not violate the truth of scriptures. Our own thinking can blend in with what the Holy Spirit is revealing.
 
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