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Preparing a sermon on John 10:22-30 I was struck by Jesus phrase - "you do not believe because are not my sheep..my sheep hear my voice"

If the only people who can see what Jesus does and understand how it affirms him as the Messiah are those predestined for an eternity with God then why bother speaking to the unsaved at all.

Is the message here that only Christians will interpret attempts to live like Jesus correctly and so words are wasted on those not chosen to believe, those who are not and never will be his sheep

In which case does Jesus say this only for those who love Him so that they understand the gulf between those eternally saved and those who are dammed. Or do his words fix that gulf for the unsaved who hear them and are thus condemned to darkness

This passage seems to affirm double predestination to me.

If double predestination is true then what’s the point of Jesus and the apostles telling people to believe? If they are chosen by God they are incapable of not believing, if they are not chosen by God they are incapable of believing regardless. According to John 3:18 why are people judged according to whether they believe or not if God hasn’t enabled unbelievers to believe. Would that be a just and loving God to condemn those who do not have the ability to believe because God has not chosen them? According to the doctrine of predestination who is ultimately responsible for their unbelief? 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 say that God wants all to repent and be saved not wishing that any should perish. So why would He only enable a few to be saved? If predestination is true then eternal security must also be true so according to John 15:1-10 why does The Father cut off or remove branches who are “in Christ” from the vine (Christ) for not bearing fruit? Why does Jesus tell His 11 faithful apostles, who were undoubtedly chosen by God, to abide (remain) in Him if they are incapable of failing to abide. Why does He say in verse 6 anyone who does not abide (remain) will be cast away to wither then thrown into the fire? According to predestination a person cannot believe unless they are chosen by God. So if they don’t believe they cannot be in Christ in the first place. A person can’t abide or remain somewhere they aren’t currently at or somewhere they cannot get to. Only believers can abide or fail to abide because only they can be in Christ. Before someone claims these branches aren’t really in Christ I will point out that is contradicting what the scriptures actually say. Verse 2 specifically says the branches are “in Christ” and branches can’t be cut off or removed from the vine if they are not currently attached. Romans 11:17:23 branches who are grafted in can be cut off and grafted back in again if they repent. I’ll stop here I’ve already posted too many questions.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The opposite.

That we must include all the relevant verses.

That would aid 98% of discussions, for people to listen to more verses. Where we all know the verses about predestined and chosen in Christ already, to then proceed to include all the additional scriptures about this and combine them all.

I agree our beliefs must be in line with all scripture otherwise it’s a false belief.
 
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"who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance" (1 Peter 1:2).

The Scripture I have quoted explains it very clearly. Believers are elected through the foreknowledge of God. This means that God foreknew who were going to choose for Christ and who were going to reject Him. But His foreknowledge did not manipulate or influence their choice. Their choice were freewill choices. God never conscripts or forces anyone into His kingdom. People need to choose it freely. Because God knew who was going to choose for Christ, He elected them and predestined them to be conformed to the image of Jesus.

Correct me if I am not reading what you posted correctly. Are you claiming that before creation, God looked into the future, saw who would receive Him as Lord and Savior, and using that knowledge then chose them?
 
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Correct me if I am not reading what you posted correctly. Are you claiming that before creation, God looked into the future, saw who would receive Him as Lord and Savior, and using that knowledge then chose them?
That's the only way I could reconcile God electing souls for salvation and writing their names into the book of Life before the foundation of the world.

The other explanation, which some make is that God chose and elected some for salvation and other to be lost. But I couldn't reconcile God's justice and fairness in extending the invitation of the Gospel to all, and then, behind the scenes choosing whom He wanted to be saved or lost. It would also have been contradictory to the Scripture, "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." If God predetermined who should be saved and who should remain lost, then the Scripture should have read, "God is willing that some should perish and some come to repentance" and that John 3:16 should read, "God so loved some in the world whom He chose to be saved that He gave His son so that those whom He elected will be induced to believe and will inherit eternal life." But it actually doesn't say that.

So, I believe that God does know the future, and that He knows in advance who is going to choose for Christ and who is not. This is not foredetermination that He has determined who can be saved and therefore taking away free individual choice.

For years, I argued that God does not know the future, and I had some lively debates here on CF, but all the while I could not satisfactorily answer the Election and Predestination problem and how it reconciles with free choice. Some have said that there has to be a work of the Holy Spirit in the person before they are able to choose for Christ, but this means some form of regeneration before they have even received Christ! What! Be filled with the Holy Spirit before conversion??? Rubbish!!!

So it came down to the simple answer: Man has the power to choose whether to believe the Gospel and receive Christ, or not. When the person chooses for Christ, the Holy Spirit comes in and baptises them into the body of Christ. Religious people complicate the issues, muddy the waters, and tell God how He should save people.

So, although we can't understand it, God has to know the future. How He knows it, nobody knows. It is beyond the power of our reasoning. I have come to the conclusion that God is God, and there are many things we don't know about Him, and I think that we will spend an eternity trying to find out, but we will never get to the bottom of who He is and what He is capable of.

All the Bible shows us is that God is real, alive, and is "there", and He has communicated His plan of salvation to mankind, and we have seen the development of that from Genesis onward, to the present day, and given some clues to how it is all going to end up. Then there is our continuing life in eternity which we know very little about.

For instance: We don't know how God was able to stop the world revolving in one place, and caused the world to revolve backward in another without causing catastrophic results. but that is what He did in two Old Testament events. The resurrected Jesus could walk through walls, yet had a real body and bones. God can suspend the laws of physics without any effort at all. Take Philip the evangelist being miraculously transported from one place to another! How did that happen? We don't know!
 
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Oscarr,

Greetings in the Lord. Thank you for your quick response. I too struggled with God's sovereignty for a long time but by reading and studying and by the guidance of the Holy Spirit He has shown me the truth. God is absolutely sovereign over absolutely everything and absolutely everyone. Lam 3:37-38 “Who can command things to happen without the Lord’s permission? Does not the Most High send both calamity and good?" Jer 32:17 "“Ah, Sovereign LORD, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you." The word "sovereign" appears 303 times in the scriptures.

James 4:12 (a) “He [God] alone has the power to save or to destroy..."If God has to look into the future to see who will receive Him and then decide that they are the elect, then man can save himself without any help from God. The scriptures are clear, man is incapable of saving himself. John 6:63 “The Holy Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing.”

You said "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) While God is not willing that any perish, billions of people either have or are currently perishing! Why? Because God has two wills, His declared will (found in His word) and His permissive will (found usually by observation.) God's declared will states "thou shall not kill" (Exodus 20:13) yet Christ was killed by sinful men and God not only foretold of it He even orchestrated it! Acts 2:23 "With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed Christ to a cross and killed him. But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed."

God has preordained everything that will happen to mankind. Jer 15:2 "This is what the LORD says: “ ‘Those destined for death, to death; those for the sword, to the sword; those for starvation, to starvation; those for captivity, to captivity." This is true of salvation also. Eph 1:4 "Even before God made the world, He loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes." God chooses us we don't choose Him, in fact NO ONE can choose Him. "John 15:16 “You didn’t choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce lasting fruit, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name.” No one can seek for the Lord, "Romans 3: 11 “No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God.” Repeated also in Psalm 14:1-3 and Psalm 53:1-3. John 3:6 “Humans can only reproduce human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life." John 6:44 “For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.”
Note that Jesus said "I WILL raise them up." Proof of eternal security, otherwise He would have said I MAY raise them up (if they didn't sin, didn't grumble, didn't complain and so forth.)

Lastly, the branches. According to 1 Cor 3:13 "But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value." A branch is obviously a Christian and his works will be subjected to fire (but not the Christian only his works). Some of those works will burn up (those that had no eternal value) and some will not (those that had eternal value).
 
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Gregory95

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Here is my understanding if by Scripture you can show i error i beg for correction

Only those who have the possibility to be saved hear Him for i heard Him MANY times yet rejected Him i was not saved for much time after i lived in torment until i accepted for we have to the degree our Father gave us freewill to accept or deny His Grace

Christ is the Word of God that was made flesh He laid down His own life for us and resurrected it for our hope for the Father is so wonderful beyond words He sends His Holy Spirit to us this is our Comforter the Christ spoke of

May we always be lead by the Holy Spirit and not the will of the flesh!!

my testimony is on my page if you wish to read it

Praise Christ our Lord!

Preparing a sermon on John 10:22-30 I was struck by Jesus phrase - "you do not believe because are not my sheep..my sheep hear my voice"

If the only people who can see what Jesus does and understand how it affirms him as the Messiah are those predestined for an eternity with God then why bother speaking to the unsaved at all.

Is the message here that only Christians will interpret attempts to live like Jesus correctly and so words are wasted on those not chosen to believe, those who are not and never will be his sheep

In which case does Jesus say this only for those who love Him so that they understand the gulf between those eternally saved and those who are dammed. Or do his words fix that gulf for the unsaved who hear them and are thus condemned to darkness

This passage seems to affirm double predestination to me.
 
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To hear Christians speak about their free will to do anything they like, one would think the word is found hundreds of times in the scriptures, so I looked it up. The words "free will" occurs 17 times in the KJV. ALL 17 times it is followed by "offering" and it not found at all in the New Testament! Nowhere are we told that we have free will! The reason for this? Man does not have free will! Jeremiah 17:3 says "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can understand it?" Only God can. For us to have free will we must have the freedom to choose either good or evil without any outside influence (that is what the word "free" means in free will) and believe me we definitely have an "outside influence." He is called Enemy, Accuser of the brethren, Satan, and Dragon to mention a few. What does this evil outside influence do to our hearts? Corrupts completely. Jesus said this in Matt 15:19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, and slander." The apostle Paul added to the list in Col 3:5 "...sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry."

Hmmm, where is our righteousness that our free will allows us to practice in these lists. Surely in the supposed God given "free will" of our hearts we have some righteousness somewhere don't we? No. In our unregenerated state NONE of us has any righteousness of our own so we can never even choose righteousness. Romans 3:10 says "there is none righteous not even one..." So who is righteous? Only those that God chose from the foundation of the world, they are "holy and blameless before Him" (Eph 1:4)
 
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mindlight

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I appreciate your articulation.

For me it’s simple enough as free will and choice. God purposed choice and even when He chooses servants in scripture, He doesn’t seem to be violating choice.

Even Jonah runs out of fear and loathing for Nineveh. God simply moved Jonah past his fear and pointed out how callous Jonah’s heart was to him.

Jonah cries out from Sheol in the belly of the sea entity that swallowed him, so we also see the “Sign of Jonah” in scripture, through this event.

We can be certain that Jonah set himself up to die, by revealing who he was to the crew he stowed away with, so Jonah had attempted to die, then and there. God didn’t drive Jonah’s will, but clearly purposed him after death.

Jonah wasn’t just upchucked onto the shore, but he was reinvigorated with life.

God works with mankind, despite mankind’s stiffneckedness.

I don’t see predestination that forces will, so much as omniscient’s working with all humanity to bring about His will, as much as mankind will allow.

The flood shows that mankind can go far outside of God’s will.

But, that’s simply my opinion.

Jonah was a Hebrew nationalist happy to give out prophecies that befitted his people but loath to deliver one that might make Israels enemies recipients of Gods grace and mercy. It is that sense of special exceptional entitlement that was at the heart of his pride and later of the Pharisees in their resistance to an early church that included gentiles for instance. The Hebrews were Gods children and no one else and he resisted the concept of the broader concern and Sovereignty that God demanded he learn.

But most people do not get a big fish that conveniently deposits them back on the land they should have been before they went off script. He was already a sheep in the shepherds flock and God was looking out for him like a good shepherd does, but others outside the church do not get that special persuasion or concern.
 
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mindlight

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To hear Christians speak about their free will to do anything they like, one would think the word is found hundreds of times in the scriptures, so I looked it up. The words "free will" occurs 17 times in the KJV. ALL 17 times it is followed by "offering" and it not found at all in the New Testament! Nowhere are we told that we have free will! The reason for this? Man does not have free will! Jeremiah 17:3 says "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can understand it?" Only God can. For us to have free will we must have the freedom to choose either good or evil without any outside influence (that is what the word "free" means in free will) and believe me we definitely have an "outside influence." He is called Enemy, Accuser of the brethren, Satan, and Dragon to mention a few. What does this evil outside influence do to our hearts? Corrupts completely. Jesus said this in Matt 15:19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, and slander." The apostle Paul added to the list in Col 3:5 "...sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry."

Hmmm, where is our righteousness that our free will allows us to practice in these lists. Surely in the supposed God given "free will" of our hearts we have some righteousness somewhere don't we? No. In our unregenerated state NONE of us has any righteousness of our own so we can never even choose righteousness. Romans 3:10 says "there is none righteous not even one..." So who is righteous? Only those that God chose from the foundation of the world, they are "holy and blameless before Him" (Eph 1:4)

The Jonah story is an example where God listened to the peoples free repentance and stepped back from judgment. Assyria was in decline before that moment , but after it rose again and later destroyed the Northern Kingdom from which Jonah came. Rebecca was given a choice as to whether she would go with Isaacs servant to be Isaacs wife. The cross makes no sense unless God expected a degree of freewill response to his act of love and sacrifice. We may have dirty hands but we can still open them to receive the cleansing waters of his grace and mercy. So absolute ideas about predestination do not really work.
 
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mindlight

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If double predestination is true then what’s the point of Jesus and the apostles telling people to believe? If they are chosen by God they are incapable of not believing, if they are not chosen by God they are incapable of believing regardless. According to John 3:18 why are people judged according to whether they believe or not if God hasn’t enabled unbelievers to believe. Would that be a just and loving God to condemn those who do not have the ability to believe because God has not chosen them? According to the doctrine of predestination who is ultimately responsible for their unbelief? 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 say that God wants all to repent and be saved not wishing that any should perish. So why would He only enable a few to be saved? If predestination is true then eternal security must also be true so according to John 15:1-10 why does The Father cut off or remove branches who are “in Christ” from the vine (Christ) for not bearing fruit? Why does Jesus tell His 11 faithful apostles, who were undoubtedly chosen by God, to abide (remain) in Him if they are incapable of failing to abide. Why does He say in verse 6 anyone who does not abide (remain) will be cast away to wither then thrown into the fire? According to predestination a person cannot believe unless they are chosen by God. So if they don’t believe they cannot be in Christ in the first place. A person can’t abide or remain somewhere they aren’t currently at or somewhere they cannot get to. Only believers can abide or fail to abide because only they can be in Christ. Before someone claims these branches aren’t really in Christ I will point out that is contradicting what the scriptures actually say. Verse 2 specifically says the branches are “in Christ” and branches can’t be cut off or removed from the vine if they are not currently attached. Romans 11:17:23 branches who are grafted in can be cut off and grafted back in again if they repent. I’ll stop here I’ve already posted too many questions.

Personally I believe that no one can snatch me out of Jesus hand and that nothing can separate me from the love of God. This faith rests on Gods promise to me and others who are saved not on my own desert. This would also exclude my own misguided freewill being able to take me out of a state of salvation. But I would agree that freewill does overthrow the ideas of double predestination as it clear that God expects us to cooperate with his offer of Salvation in order to enter into eternal security
 
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So, does anyone here actually hear Jesus' voice?
How can you claim to be his sheep if you don't?

Spiritually yes in scripture, in the best examples of his people and through the Holy Spirit. There are those who have had direct encounters and commands given to them also such as Paul on the road to Damascus.
 
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Grip Docility

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Jonah was a Hebrew nationalist happy to give out prophecies that befitted his people but loath to deliver one that might make Israels enemies recipients of Gods grace and mercy. It is that sense of special exceptional entitlement that was at the heart of his pride and later of the Pharisees in their resistance to an early church that included gentiles for instance. The Hebrews were Gods children and no one else and he resisted the concept of the broader concern and Sovereignty that God demanded he learn.

But most people do not get a big fish that conveniently deposits them back on the land they should have been before they went off script. He was already a sheep in the shepherds flock and God was looking out for him like a good shepherd does, but others outside the church do not get that special persuasion or concern.

Is this a point you agree with (emboldened) or are contrasting with Jonah’s callousness towards those outside National Israel?
 
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Is this a point you agree with (emboldened) or are contrasting with Jonah’s callousness towards those outside National Israel?

The Assyrians only got one chance , which they took. Therefore they were spared. Jonah also was shown a special and more personal concern. But for example the people of Egypt were not asked or given opportunities to repent relating to the 10 plagues, and the Canaanites were considered too far gone for saving in Joshuas invasion. Maybe I am wrong and God finds ways of reaching out to people who seem unreached and gives the crucial encounters in which they decide which way to go, but there is no mention this happened before the flood for example. It seems the special concern that Christians know inside the church is not shared in the main by non Christians outside of it.
 
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The Assyrians only got one chance , which they took. Therefore they were spared. Jonah also was shown a special and more personal concern. But for example the people of Egypt were not asked or given opportunities to repent relating to the 10 plagues, and the Canaanites were considered too far gone for saving in Joshuas invasion. Maybe I am wrong and God finds ways of reaching out to people who seem unreached and gives the crucial encounters in which they decide which way to go, but there is no mention this happened before the flood for example. It seems the special concern that Christians know inside the church is not shared in the main by non Christians outside of it.

I love how you worded this! It binds to the Love (concern) for All humanity within the invisible church.

I’ll drop these verses I cling to on these matters, because I appreciate your articulations.

1 Peter 3:18-22 In here, we see the Spirit of Christ address those dead, after His death on the cross and most likely, (speculation) before His resurrection.

All Love in Christ to you!
 
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My understanding of double predestination is that God chose some people (the elect) to be elected to salvation and He chose some people (the lost) to go to Hell. As I see it this is NOT biblical. Yes, God predestined some people to salvation (the elect) and the rest will go where everyone deserves to go, Hell. Are we going to tell God He must offer salvation to everyone, otherwise He is being unfair? Romans 9:20-21 "Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this? [In other words you were unfair to make me a sinner] ”When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?" Yes He does! He is absolutely sovereign over absolutely everyone and absolutely everything.

God has always had chosen people. In the OT is wasn't the Egyptians, or the Amalakites, or the Jebusites, or the Elamites, or the Phillistines or a myriad of other people groups, it was the Hebrews. Was it "fair" that God chose to bless the Hebrews with His salvation and NOT choose the rest? I am not going to judge God by telling Him he wasn't fair to only choose the Hebrews, are you? God does what He wants and we have no right to tell Him what He can or cannot do.

I put the word "fair" in the Blue Letter Bible search engine. Fair occurs 53 times in 50 verses. NONE speak of God being fair to anyone or anything. God is NOT fair! If He were "fair" He would send EVERYONE to Hell since we are all sinners, but in His wisdom and because of His great love for the spiritual children of Abraham He decided to save them and them only. Romans 9:20 "Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated." But wait! Doesn't the bible say that God is love and doesn't hate anyone? No actually the bible says God hates six things and seven are detestable to Him. Prov 6:16 "There are six things the LORD hates—no, seven things he detests: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that kill the innocent, a heart that plots evil, feet that race to do wrong, a false witness who pours out lies, a person who sows discord in a family." BUT, but I can hear someone says these are not people! These are parts of people, eyes, tongues, hands, evil hearts, feet, and [a mind that gives] false witness. Sorry but hands that kill the innocent are attached to a person's body just as all of the other parts are too, also note the very last one is a "person who sows discord." Yup, a person.

Psa 5:5 "Therefore, the proud may not stand in your presence, for you hate all who do evil." Hos 9:15 "The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels." In Psalm 138:21-22 "O LORD, shouldn’t I hate those who hate you? Shouldn’t I despise those who oppose you? Yes, I hate them with total hatred for your enemies are my enemies." So, yes, but while God is capable of hating some people and He is allowed to (He is God after all and we are not) we are not allowed to hate anyone, even His enemies, as difficult as this is.
 
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