So, this happened...

wow...

people can turn away. Lord have mercy.

~Matteus~ said:

wow...

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Is the thing that concern you the guy who is deciding to leave the church.....or the posters reaction to it? I have admiration for the EO church....Im just trying to gauges the fruit it produces.

RaymondG said:

Is the thing that concern you the guy who is deciding to leave the church.....or the posters reaction to it? I have admiration for the EO church....Im just trying to gauges the fruit it produces.

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Her whole predicament sounds rather stressful and challenging. Her reaction is the exact same one that I would've had if I was in her position.
I just cannot grasp that anyone would leave the Orthodox church for Quakers!
Of all low Christian sects out there the Quakers most be one of the gravest heresies there is...

~Matteus~ said:

Her whole predicament sounds rather stressful and challenging. Her reaction is the exact same one that I would've had if I was in her position.
I just cannot grasp that anyone would leave the Orthodox church for Quakers!
Of all low Christian sects out there the Quakers most be one of the gravest heresies there is...

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Thank you.

It IS hard to deal with someone who has turned away from Orthodoxy. Especially as converts, I think we have such a desire to share what we've found. It has taken time and effort for me to learn to back off a bit and trust that God is working in all people (though we don't know sometimes if they are cooperating or resisting).

I try to be there for them, to pray for them, and to maybe see if I can find out what it is that caused them to turn away. I know of very few cases (and only inquirers or catechumens at best) but what I can remember is that it's been something inconsequential (like not liking incense) or else something not actually related to Orthodoxy but to the failing of some person, or misunderstanding, or inter/personal issues.

That's the best I've been able to do, and have had no good outcome from anyone that I'm aware of (though sometimes God workscon the person to good effect). And sometimes I fail at my little efforts by saying too much. What I know is that it's hard for me. And I have some years of practice now in my own home with my husband being anti-Orthodox. So I know it's hard.

Do you still attend the Quaker meetings? That would be a hard situation to be in. If it were me, I would have to wish for the grace of someone great like St. Paisios to be a good witness in such a hard situation, but doubtful I would be able to carry it off. If I HAD to do it, I'd probably talk to my priest for advice, start reading something helpful every day, fasting and praying for just that concern.

Lord have mercy.

RaymondG said:

Is the thing that concern you the guy who is deciding to leave the church.....or the posters reaction to it? I have admiration for the EO church....Im just trying to gauges the fruit it produces.

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It is full of lazy, hypocritical sinners (like me, for instance). Perhaps the main thing it's got going for it is a higher-than-usual percentage of people aware of their own ongoing sinfulness balanced by corresponding hope in God's tremendous mercy.
That's what happens when people encounter the Truth. It's hard, so many go lazy. It is demanding, so we try to uphold it, but make weak excuses for our own passions. The people are going to disappoint you, again and again. And some will amaze you from time to time. And it has everything to do with ancient teachings that we like, except where they contradict what WE want. You're absolutely NOT going to find a club of holy people, though occasionally (and rarely), a person who IS holy might take you by surprise.

But like the Apostle Peter said, "Where can we go, Lord? You have the words of eternal life."

To be honest, I've gone through periods where I've considered apostasy myself. It's been mostly out of frustration, both at the lack of support from those I care about and difficultly getting to church, and the issues of other people that repulse me. Going Protestant was never an option for me in those times, though. It was always either I'd go Catholic or simply just stop going to church altogether.

So yes, in that sense I can sort of sympathize with the guy. We all come into the church with pretty high expectations, only to be disappointed as time goes on.

If you're going to be around Orthodoxy for a while, you're going to run into your fair share of people who leave. A lot of converts don't stick around, to say nothing of people who grow up in the Church and don't stay. Make of it what you will. You're going to see people do things like get divorced, leave Christianity, become schismatics, become literal fascists, become sex criminals, go back to where they came from, go a new religious direction, burn out completely, get really dumb opinions that disagree with me, etc. Frankly, the ones to really be worried about are the schismatics and literal fascists (well, of course, the sex criminals as well, but they're a different problem, though of course there's a lot of overlap between schismatics and sex criminals both in my personal experience and when you look at prominent cases like Gleb Podmoshensky but those are more about leaders than hoi polloi). But, yeah, totally familiar with the concept of the religious drifter who goes from community to community, always bashing their previous haunt.

You have to know who you are, who God is, and what you're doing here. It doesn't depend on what other people are doing or how they're reacting to it. If other people leaving the faith challenges you, look up the concept of self-differentiation.

One of my first experiences about Orthodoxy was with two former Orthodox who were part of my former Baptist Church.

I know people can leave the faith:

• Bishops such as some Patriarchs of Constantinople became Catholic when they feared the Turkish Invasion.
• A lot of Greeks became Muslims because they were tired of being taxed for being Christians and wanted the benefits only Muslims could get.
• Some Orthodox left the faith because they wanted to integrate into American society/culture or they didn't want to leave the comfort of their culture or ideologies.
• Some Orthodox left the faith because of lacks of churches around or because it is not as prominent as Catholic or Protestant Churches.

If I wanted an easy life, I wouldn't be on this journey to Orthodoxy. My parents would not bother me about my faith, I would be able to go to the same church as my parents, siblings, and friends. I would be able to participate in any Protestant church and organization that I wanted here in my Collegetown instead of having one option. I would be able to interpret the Bible in any way that would benefit me. I would be able to know an Evangelical girl and have Evangelical children instead of looking around for Orthodox girls or hoping to get Economia.

Nevertheless, what I love about Orthodoxy is her truth, and I remember what Paul said "More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ" (Philippians 3:8). Even what Jesus Christ said, "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life." (Matthew 19:29).

So I decide to continue in my journey to the Church founded by Jesus Christ, whom he said: " the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18), and whom Paul refers to as "The Pillar and Foundation of Truth" (1 Timothy 3:15).

Things might be hard but I remember what Peter said when Jesus asked them if they wanted to leave him: “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." (John 6:68)

David Cabrera said:

If I wanted an easy life, I wouldn't be on this journey to Orthodoxy.

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There's a lot of good truth in your post, but ESPECIALLY THIS.

Lord have mercy, if we want things to be easy, and we want our Christianity to be easy, and upbeat (if we so choose) and undemanding, and full of what we like with none of what we don't like - there is NO WAY we would choose Orthodoxy - for a hundred and more reasons.

But I recognized Truth, and the way of Life. And it's worth it to me, no matter what. Look at the martyrs through history who gave up everything including their lives for the sake of their faith. I hope I can have at least a little of that fidelity and apply it to long services, facing the reality of repentance, Lenten seasons, not fitting in with most people, seeing the faith misunderstood and sometimes even attacked by those who often even say they do so for the sake of Christ, and so on.

There are certainly easier paths than this, and more temporally enjoyable ones. But I couldn't bring myself to abandon the spiritual richness I've found, and the deep joy of experiencing God's love and mercy, made more real by me realizing my own need for repentance.

Wow, I see. Yes, that is a uniquely difficult position!

I want to say God wouldn't allow you to be placed in a situation you can't handle, but I've learned we do all kinds of growing. Sometimes in very difficult situations.

I have read little excerpts that help me, like St. Paisios talking to the zealous young man preaching to heterodox. But probably there is something more in depth that could help you. I suspect within the lives and teachings of the Saints, but I don't know what to suggest.

You have my prayers. I hope you can navigate this with the grace of the Holy Spirit.


By the way the part about whispering to him about divorce - just ugh! I'm sorry! For a while my husband couldn't find work around here, and worked in other states. I found his brother was inviting him to stay with his family, offered him a job ... and also talking up women he had known in the past and making it clear I was NOT welcome to visit. His family has done such things. (He is an immigrant and they don't like the fact that he married me - only one of his sisters is nice to me at all.) But for it to come from a religious setting is doubly upsetting.

Prayers for you!!!

ZaidaBoBaida said:

Yes I still go to Quaker meeting part time in part to keep peace in my marriage and to defend my corner because I know some of those jokers like to whisper divorce in my husband's ear when I'm not around.
I do bring spiritually helpful books with me - which is entirely appropriate in a Quaker meeting.

But, I often feel like I'm continually biting my tongue. I do not discuss things of spiritual importance with the Quakers - I look at it as not speaking of His mysteries with enemies. But, it will be even harder if they've got someone around who might be actively speaking ill of the Church …. especially because I know at least one guy will come skipping back to me like, "You know what whosiwasit says about your church..." Plus, if this guy dumped the Church for Quakerism that might mean that I eventually will too...

So, yeah it just makes my life that much harder than it needs to be.

Plus, next week I think - this weirdo is coming to visit from Australia and they want to have a potluck for him. I met him last time he was over here - hence my assessment that he's a weirdo. But, I told Hubman I won't go to the potluck nor will I cook for it. If I'm going to cook for a religious gathering it will be for MY church. Plus, I don't want to be put in a position where this guy is gushing about how great the Quakers are, and having to bite my tongue bloody to say, "No I think it's a great big pile of crap."

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