Is this reasonable? Vaccinations and nursing homes

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FireDragon76

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Your ire is misplaced. My mother's nursing home goes on lockdown during parts of flu season when NOONE is allowed in, including family.

They absolutely do have the right to mandate the shot and given your previous posting history I am absolutely saddened that you would create a thread about this.

I think that's an overreaction. There's no need to get moralistic about this. Everybody has their potential blind spots, and asking for help in moral deliberation is not seen as a personal fault in my religious tradition or in Anglicanism.
 
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blackribbon

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I could get it free, but that's not the point.

The point isn't, "Should I get the shot?" It's, "Should they be able to mandate it of visitors?"

I think they're two quite separate issues.

If it is an equal policy across the board...then yes they should be able to mandate it. They care for a vulnerable population and that policy may be why some people select this facility.

You do have the option of not coming. You can pray with people over the phone or set up a way to visit residents via skype. It isn't meant to harm you but rather protect their clients. They gave you notice so you didn't show up and get turned away. My 1100 bed hospital doesn't allow children to visit (even in the postpartum units) during very active flu seasons. It isn't because we don't like children or want to keep them away from their parents or grandparents...it is because they are high risk populations that can bring viruses into an area where we have compromised individuals.

They may have the option of wearing a mask for the entire time you are in their facility...but I would think that would make doing your job more difficult. I know they make caring for a patient hard enough. Praying through a mask to a person who is already hard of hearing would almost be ineffective.

The choice really is yours...they gave their criteria...vaccine or no visiting. You get to make the final decision on what you actually do.

I do understand your indignation. I personally have no problem with people not vaccinating with they have an educated reason why they opt out. I do not know why you don't want to get the vaccine, nor do I believe you need to tell anyone. However, you have to realize that you really are the one getting to make the final decision. They have to do what they believe is in the best interest of their residents.
 
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bhsmte

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To be clear, I don't oppose getting the vaccine. My issue was more that an organisation with which I have no formal relationship felt they had the right to mandate it.

They do have a right to take reasonable measures, to protect their patients.
 
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Tanj

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I think that's an overreaction. There's no need to get moralistic about this. Everybody has their potential blind spots, and asking for help in moral deliberation is not seen as a personal fault in my religious tradition or in Anglicanism.

So I shouldn't get moralistic in a moral deliberation.

Fascinating.

At any rate, I do not considerer protecting the lives of the elderly to be "moralistic", if you want moralistic then howasbout the irony that whenever I have this conversations it's usually with someone that calls themselves "pro life"
 
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FireDragon76

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So I shouldn't get moralistic in a moral deliberation.

Fascinating.

At any rate, I do not considerer protecting the lives of the elderly to be "moralistic", if you want moralistic then howasbout the irony that whenever I have this conversations it's usually with someone that calls themselves "pro life"

What's moralistic is the way you rebuked her. Please remember this is a Christian forum and we value ideals such a love and consideration for others, and that includes giving people the benefit of the doubt.

And please do not make assumptions about our personal takes on abortion politics as Christians.
 
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Nithavela

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One of those, "Am I being unreasonable?" posts.

I don't normally get the flu shot. I'm healthy and not in an at-risk group, and that's just where I've fallen on that decision. I'm not anti-vacc in general.

I take church services in nursing homes; three different nursing homes, once a month each. I'm there for less than an hour each time.

One of those nursing homes has just informed me I am "required" to have a flu shot.

I am not impressed. I'm not their employee, nor do I have any relationship with them which would give them the right to require such a thing of me. They have not indicated what they'd do if I don't get one, they just seem to assume that I will, but I'd argue that they can't actually prevent me from doing my job there, because that would be infringing on the rights of their residents to practise their religion.

My issue, to be clear, is not with the flu shot. It's with the idea that they can "require" it of a visitor who is there in a particular capacity. But is it unreasonable of me to feel that that's an unreasonable expectation?
They should propably get someone else to do the church services when you are unwilling to follow their risk-prevention procedures.
 
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Paidiske

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They should propably get someone else to do the church services when you are unwilling to follow their risk-prevention procedures.

No... you misunderstand. It's not that I'm unwilling to get the vaccination. What I was trying to pick apart was the slightly separate issue of whether they had the right to mandate it.

It could be something completely different - they could be trying to enforce a professional dress code, for example - and I'd have the same question. The flu shot isn't the issue, it's the attempt to make decisions for people who aren't part of their organisation.
 
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Nithavela

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No... you misunderstand. It's not that I'm unwilling to get the vaccination. What I was trying to pick apart was the slightly separate issue of whether they had the right to mandate it.

It could be something completely different - they could be trying to enforce a professional dress code, for example - and I'd have the same question. The flu shot isn't the issue, it's the attempt to make decisions for people who aren't part of their organisation.
I'd answer that with a yes, just like everyone else in the thread.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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One of those, "Am I being unreasonable?" posts.

I don't normally get the flu shot. I'm healthy and not in an at-risk group, and that's just where I've fallen on that decision. I'm not anti-vacc in general.

I take church services in nursing homes; three different nursing homes, once a month each. I'm there for less than an hour each time.

One of those nursing homes has just informed me I am "required" to have a flu shot.

I am not impressed. I'm not their employee, nor do I have any relationship with them which would give them the right to require such a thing of me. They have not indicated what they'd do if I don't get one, they just seem to assume that I will, but I'd argue that they can't actually prevent me from doing my job there, because that would be infringing on the rights of their residents to practise their religion.

My issue, to be clear, is not with the flu shot. It's with the idea that they can "require" it of a visitor who is there in a particular capacity. But is it unreasonable of me to feel that that's an unreasonable expectation?

The flu season has already been ferocious in Australia this year, with 40,000 laboratory-confirmed cases, and the winter peak is barely even on the horizon yet. In 2017 a quarter of a million people had documented cases of the flu there, and that doesn't reflect the full sum since there were many who had it but were not officially diagnosed to be counted. Flu experts anticipate that 2 million Australians will be afflicted by influenza in 2019, and 4000 will lose their lives due to complications resulting from it. There has been a sustaining surge of cases this summer and autumn, which is why a rampage is anticipated this winter, and public health officials are urgently pleading with everyone who can receive the flu vaccine to please do so promptly. There had been a shortage in some areas, but they've been resupplied. Among those who've already perished from influenza in 2019 is a teenage girl in SA who had been robustly healthy. She was younger than you, was not in any at-risk group either, and yet her parents buried her. The other victims in SA were between the ages of 62 and 92. Today a teenager in Houston, Texas died from the flu, after it rapidly progressed into pneumonia and sepsis.

Infants, pregnant women, and people with chronic health conditions (such as myself) are at heightened vulnerability to the flu, but the largest demographic to die from it is most typically the elderly. Having the flu puts them at significantly greater risks of complications from it. They are more likely to suffer from a heart attack while battling the flu, to have an agonizing ordeal from pneumonia. Since the flu can manifest differently in older adults, with less perceptible symptoms immediately apparent (many do not suffer from a fever, sore throat, or other typical flags) it's common for their diagnosis, and therefore their treatment, to be delayed. This also makes it exponentially harder to take swift action in an assisted living home to segregate a person with the flu from the rest of the population to prevent an outbreak that could wreak misery and even death.

The flu can also be insidious in kids and younger adults who appear to be blessed with impeccable health. An infected person can be contagious prior to being symptomatic, and remain contagious for days after they feel they've recovered. Therefore you could go to a nursing home, feeling absolutely confident that you are in fine health and posing no danger to those you've come to provide pastoral care to, and yet pass along to them something that could be substantially more distressing to their bodies than to yours. An hour is more than ample time to be destructive. Even a fraction of that is enough time to potentially inflict harm.

To be clear, I don't oppose getting the vaccine. My issue was more that an organisation with which I have no formal relationship felt they had the right to mandate it.

They are mandating it as a condition for you entering their facility, as is their prerogative. Not only is that absolutely reasonable, I'd quantify the failure to implement such a mandate as a dereliction of duty to their residents. Many nursing homes have such policies, as they should.

To me, you getting the flu shot for their benefit is a way of actively practicing loving your neighbor as yourself, the most crucial tenet of Christ's. You are going there to minister, to provide spiritual care, and that should encompass care for their whole being and a desire to do your small part to help protect them since they are not blessed with the vibrancy and mobility you are.

It's honestly dismaying to me that rather than seeing the providence of the nursing homes' actions and fully supporting it, wanting the best for those you are trying to serve, you feel aggrieved. I don't know you, but from having read so many of your posts, I've felt like I did in a way, and you're the last person I expected to write this thread. I still respect you, of course, I'm just taken aback.

You still have the luxury of choice, but need to accept the consequences of that choice. In this case, it would be choosing to be in compliance with the rules for visiting, or not visiting. The residents would not be denied their right to practice their religion because of the nursing home's rules. They still could on their own, with another clergy member who respected the rules. If you choose to not get the flu shot and still want to minister to residents there, you can send them letters or set up some other way to interface without being face-to-face.
 
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Saricharity

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But is it unreasonable of me to feel that that's an unreasonable expectation?

I agree that it is completely unreasonable.
I volunteer at an elderly home a few times a week. I was required to get a TB test when I started and that was it. The director of the home contacts me if there is a gastrointestinal outbreak or upper respiratory outbreak and I am not allowed to volunteer. They have asked me not to come if I have a sore throat, cough or cold, fever...which goes without saying as I would never even think about volunteering when I am unwell. The director was apologetic about the TB test because potential volunteers have been turned off by having to do that (volunteers have to pay for the test out of their own pocket). She values volunteers and strives to do what she can to keep them.
Vaccine mandates are inappropriate on every level.
 
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Dave-W

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I agree that it is completely unreasonable.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one. In general I have to follow the wisdom of Spock:

upload_2019-5-9_7-4-55.jpeg
 
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grasping the after wind

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One of those, "Am I being unreasonable?" posts.

I don't normally get the flu shot. I'm healthy and not in an at-risk group, and that's just where I've fallen on that decision. I'm not anti-vacc in general.

I take church services in nursing homes; three different nursing homes, once a month each. I'm there for less than an hour each time.

One of those nursing homes has just informed me I am "required" to have a flu shot.

I am not impressed. I'm not their employee, nor do I have any relationship with them which would give them the right to require such a thing of me. They have not indicated what they'd do if I don't get one, they just seem to assume that I will, but I'd argue that they can't actually prevent me from doing my job there, because that would be infringing on the rights of their residents to practise their religion.

My issue, to be clear, is not with the flu shot. It's with the idea that they can "require" it of a visitor who is there in a particular capacity. But is it unreasonable of me to feel that that's an unreasonable expectation?

You are not unreasonable to refuse to get a flu shot and they are not unreasonable to refuse admittance to their facilities if you a have not gotten one. You may be a very accomplished cleric but the patient's right to practice their religion is not based solely upon your presence at their facility. Even if the practice of a particular person's religion requires a clerical presence, you are not the only person in Christendom with the correct qualifications and I am fairly certain that one of the others that has had a flu shot could be persuaded to perform the necessary duties for those nursing homes you service.
 
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ViaCrucis

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One of those, "Am I being unreasonable?" posts.

I don't normally get the flu shot. I'm healthy and not in an at-risk group, and that's just where I've fallen on that decision. I'm not anti-vacc in general.

I take church services in nursing homes; three different nursing homes, once a month each. I'm there for less than an hour each time.

One of those nursing homes has just informed me I am "required" to have a flu shot.

I am not impressed. I'm not their employee, nor do I have any relationship with them which would give them the right to require such a thing of me. They have not indicated what they'd do if I don't get one, they just seem to assume that I will, but I'd argue that they can't actually prevent me from doing my job there, because that would be infringing on the rights of their residents to practise their religion.

My issue, to be clear, is not with the flu shot. It's with the idea that they can "require" it of a visitor who is there in a particular capacity. But is it unreasonable of me to feel that that's an unreasonable expectation?

There's always the risk that you could be a vector for the virus, even if you yourself aren't necessarily at risk showing symptoms. Meaning you could pass on the virus without even knowing that you have it.

So it seems reasonable to me, for the protection of those susceptible in the nursing home, to require having received a flu shot as a safeguard.

I'm not particularly worried about the flu with myself either, but I make it a point to get a flu shot every year, just as a precaution.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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QUOTE="Paidiske, post: 73922258, member: 386627"]One of those, "Am I being unreasonable?" posts.

I don't normally get the flu shot. I'm healthy and not in an at-risk group, and that's just where I've fallen on that decision. I'm not anti-vacc in general.

I take church services in nursing homes; three different nursing homes, once a month each. I'm there for less than an hour each time.

One of those nursing homes has just informed me I am "required" to have a flu shot.

I am not impressed. I'm not their employee, nor do I have any relationship with them which would give them the right to require such a thing of me. They have not indicated what they'd do if I don't get one, they just seem to assume that I will, but I'd argue that they can't actually prevent me from doing my job there, because that would be infringing on the rights of their residents to practise their religion.

My issue, to be clear, is not with the flu shot. It's with the idea that they can "require" it of a visitor who is there in a particular capacity. But is it unreasonable of me to feel that that's an unreasonable expectation?[/QUOTE
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No , it is not unreasonable of you.

There, and elsewhere, "rule" is not only unreasonable, but is (Scripturally and historically) based on deception (by and of those in power), and is harmful to millions of people. Also it is very very very much for profit-making (overall).
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I could get it free, but that's not the point.

The point isn't, "Should I get the shot?" It's, "Should they be able to mandate it of visitors?"

I think they're two quite separate issues.
Did you know that the fortune 500 companies are all basically AGAINST mandatory shots ?

They "know" more than the common man does about the danger of them.
 
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nanookadenord

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Did you know that the fortune 500 companies are all basically AGAINST mandatory shots ?

They "know" more than the common man does about the danger of them.

Can I offer you a tin foil hat?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Can I offer you a tin foil hat?
It is God's Promise that whoever seeks the truth and keeps seeking the truth (no matter what the cost/ at all cost) will find it. Likewise His Kingdom (not of this world).

The whole system is set up not for truth, but to call the truth a lie, and a lie the truth (as God declares in His Word).

Believe what God Reveals, or believe what the world says. Each person's choice. (presumably)
 
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