LDS LDS Spirit Prison

devin553344 said:

Thanks for the morality lecture. But more interesting is your beliefs about heaven, so then you believe that you'll be man and wife in heaven and never have sexual relations there? Is that your belief? I'm asking because I'm curious.

Click to expand...

We have not been told what sex is like in heaven. So I can't answer that question. The only thing I can say is that what ever sex is like, it will be a holy kind of an activity, not a carnal, erotic, sensual sexual experience.

Peter1000 said:

We have not been told what sex is like in heaven. So I can't answer that question. The only thing I can say is that what ever sex is like, it will be a holy kind of an activity, not a carnal, erotic, sensual sexual experience.

Click to expand...

This verse below tells me what that we enjoy on earth is not what will be enjoy in heaven

Psalm 84:10 Better a day in your courts than a thousand anywhere else. I would rather stand at the threshold of the house of my God than live in the tents of wicked people.

Peter1000 said:

We have not been told what sex is like in heaven. So I can't answer that question. The only thing I can say is that what ever sex is like, it will be a holy kind of an activity, not a carnal, erotic, sensual sexual experience.

Click to expand...

Thanks, that's kinda what I thought you might suggest. Sex to me is an earthly idea, created by God to provide bodies for his children on earth. It has no place in heaven. That's the heaven I see as angels. You won't be married there but you could have friends.

1 Corinthians 7:8

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do."

1 Timothy 3:2

"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach..."

Matthew 22:30

"For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

And you surely can see how these doctrines of the bible are much different than LDS teachings regarding marriage and heaven.

devin553344 said:

Thanks, that's kinda what I thought you might suggest. Sex to me is an earthly idea, created by God to provide bodies for his children on earth. It has no place in heaven. That's the heaven I see as angels. You won't be married there but you could have friends.

1 Corinthians 7:8

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do."

1 Timothy 3:2

"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach..."

Matthew 22:30

"For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

And you surely can see how these doctrines of the bible are much different than LDS teachings regarding marriage and heaven.

Click to expand...

Peter1000 said:

LDS doctrine opens up the reason why David could be allowed in heaven after committing such heinous sins. Yes, God forgave him, and he will be allowed into heaven, but not into the heaven that the Godhead dwell in. Remember we are judged according to our works. Our works will determine where in heaven you are. David's works are both good and bad, therefore, we believe he will be in the second heaven, not in the lowest heaven, and not in the highest heaven. I know that makes no sense to you, but it makes perfect sense to me.

Read 2 Corinthians 12:2. This mentions that a man was caught up into the third heaven.
Now we can speculate all we want about what that third heaven meant, but for sure we know there are 3 heavens. You think they are one thing, and we think they are another. We think they reflect the heavens that exist after the resurrection and the judgement. You do not. That is your choice. But our interpretation of 3 heavens is certainly as biblically reasonable as your interpretation of 1 heaven.

Click to expand...

You are still theologically confused by your religion. David was forgiven. Period. That means he will be in heaven, with God. His works, both good and bad, are the same as everyone else's - all fall short of God's glory. You're judgement of David being in the second heaven ignores the entirety of God's grace.

There are no levels in heaven. Just the massive confusion by the lds on the one verse that talks about a 3rd heaven. Your version is not biblically reasonable, since it ignores Scripture itself as well as the historical interpretation of the 3 heavens (sky, space, God's dwelling). Your comments only show that you continue to ignore Scripture.

Peter1000 said:

We have not been told what sex is like in heaven. So I can't answer that question. The only thing I can say is that what ever sex is like, it will be a holy kind of an activity, not a carnal, erotic, sensual sexual experience.

Click to expand...

Why can't you answer the question? Should you be exhalted to the highest glory and be a god as your church teaches, are you not able to create spirit children as God the Father and Heavenly Mother (shhh, we're not supposed to talk about her) are supposed to have done here on earth? If you are supposed to keep the commandments and "be perfect" to get to that degree of glory, are you not supposed to have "a carnal, erotic, sensual sexual experience" with your wife while obtaining that glory?

BigDaddy4 said:

You are still theologically confused by your religion. David was forgiven. Period. That means he will be in heaven, with God. His works, both good and bad, are the same as everyone else's - all fall short of God's glory. You're judgement of David being in the second heaven ignores the entirety of God's grace.

There are no levels in heaven. Just the massive confusion by the lds on the one verse that talks about a 3rd heaven. Your version is not biblically reasonable, since it ignores Scripture itself as well as the historical interpretation of the 3 heavens (sky, space, God's dwelling). Your comments only show that you continue to ignore Scripture.

Click to expand...

, The Bible says Paradise is in the third heaven or where God dwells:

1st Heaven is Rakia to a Jew it is the atmospheric heaven found in Jer 8:7, 10:13

Isa 55:10. it is were the birds fly clouds, made on 2nd day

2nd heaven shamayim to a Jew it is the starry heaven found in Jer 44:17,25; Psalm 8:3

3rd heaven shemi Hashamayim it is the heaven where God dwells found in 1 Kings 8:27, Deut. 26:15, 2 Chron 6:33 Eccl. 5:2

This passage below says Paradise is in the third heaven

2 Corth 12:

1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.



Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.



REV 22: 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

devin553344 said:

I don't believe what your teaching, and that is because the story that Jesus told regarding not being married nor given in marriage is perfectly clear and precise. I mean you simply can't twist that into what your suggesting without throwing out Jesus testimony all together and creating your own idea. And that is what Joseph Smith did in fact.

Click to expand...

So if I were a dictator, and I layed down a law that from this day forward we will neither marry, nor be given in marriage, what would be your first question?

BigDaddy4 said:

Why can't you answer the question? Should you be exhalted to the highest glory and be a god as your church teaches, are you not able to create spirit children as God the Father and Heavenly Mother (shhh, we're not supposed to talk about her) are supposed to have done here on earth? If you are supposed to keep the commandments and "be perfect" to get to that degree of glory, are you not supposed to have "a carnal, erotic, sensual sexual experience" with your wife while obtaining that glory?

Click to expand...

Should I be exalted to the highest glory, and be a god myself, as our church and the bible teaches, we will create spirit children as God the Father and God the Mother did on this earth and have on other earths.
What kind of process my wife and I would go through to create spirit children is unknown. But when we are in that process, it will be a holy endeavor, not a carnal, erotic, sensual sexual experience.

Sexual behavior along the way to being exalted is always respectful to our wives, and to our inherited power of pro-creation with God. We never abuse the actions associated with pro-creation.

Christian Apologist said:

Correct in the Hebrew language there is three different heavens ​

, The Bible says Paradise is in the third heaven or where God dwells:

1st Heaven is Rakia to a Jew it is the atmospheric heaven found in Jer 8:7, 10:13

Isa 55:10. it is were the birds fly clouds, made on 2nd day

2nd heaven shamayim to a Jew it is the starry heaven found in Jer 44:17,25; Psalm 8:3

3rd heaven shemi Hashamayim it is the heaven where God dwells found in 1 Kings 8:27, Deut. 26:15, 2 Chron 6:33 Eccl. 5:2

This passage below says Paradise is in the third heaven

2 Corth 12:

1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.



Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.



REV 22: 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Click to expand...

Again, do the 3 heavens that you are talking about relate to our existence after the resurrection?

Christian Apologist said:

Joseph Smith lived in a mansion and he was quite wealthy ​

Click to expand...

Where did you get the idea that JS was wealthy?

Peter1000 said:

Should I be exalted to the highest glory, and be a god myself, as our church and the bible teaches, we will create spirit children as God the Father and God the Mother did on this earth and have on other earths.
What kind of process my wife and I would go through to create spirit children is unknown. But when we are in that process, it will be a holy endeavor, not a carnal, erotic, sensual sexual experience.

Sexual behavior along the way to being exalted is always respectful to our wives, and to our inherited power of pro-creation with God. We never abuse the actions associated with pro-creation.

Click to expand...

The Truth about Mormonism: The misinformation and hyperbole of the Mormon leaders pertaining to the Book Of Mormon

Peter1000 said:

So if I were a dictator, and I layed down a law that from this day forward we will neither marry, nor be given in marriage, what would be your first question?

Click to expand...

I don't see how that relates to Jesus' teachings.

Christian Apologist said:

Seems The Book of Mormon is silent on Mormon core theology​

The Truth about Mormonism: The misinformation and hyperbole of the Mormon leaders pertaining to the Book Of Mormon

Click to expand...

I actually haven't done a lot of study in the BOM as to what it says about becoming like God. My study has been on the bible and what it says on the same subject.

So I will take a look and see what it says, but in the D & C and the Pearl of Great Price, you will find more information about this subject.

As in the bible, we need to look at all the scriptures of the prophet JS to see all that he says about becoming like God and the nature of the Godhead.

devin553344 said:

I don't see how that relates to Jesus' teachings.

Click to expand...

OK, Jesus said from the time of the first resurrection, we will neither marry, nor be given in marriage. What is one question that jumps out at you?

devin553344 said:

I don't see how that relates to Jesus' teachings.

Click to expand...

BTW, Jesus said the same thing. That's how it relates.

BigDaddy4 said:

You are still theologically confused by your religion. David was forgiven. Period. That means he will be in heaven, with God. His works, both good and bad, are the same as everyone else's - all fall short of God's glory. You're judgement of David being in the second heaven ignores the entirety of God's grace.

There are no levels in heaven. Just the massive confusion by the lds on the one verse that talks about a 3rd heaven. Your version is not biblically reasonable, since it ignores Scripture itself as well as the historical interpretation of the 3 heavens (sky, space, God's dwelling). Your comments only show that you continue to ignore Scripture.

Click to expand...

Does it say anywhere in scripture that David will be in heaven with God?

The one verse that talks about a third heaven is just a confirmation that we are on the right track. In the resurrection people will live in 1 of 3 heavens and will have full access to God or limited access to God depending upon which heaven they live in. It makes sense to me.

What I ignore is somebody coming up with 3 heavens that do not fit the resurrection scenario. That is why I ask, how does your 3 heavens relate to after the resurrection. Are some people going to be resurrected and live in the heavens where the birds fly, or are some going to be resurrected and then jettisoned into space? Do you see what I mean?

Peter1000 said:

OK, Jesus said from the time of the first resurrection, we will neither marry, nor be given in marriage. What is one question that jumps out at you?

Click to expand...

Please just get to your point. All I see is that people are not married in heaven because that is what it clearly says, I'm not sure how you could be confused other than being convinced by a false prophet.

Peter1000 said:

Does it say anywhere in scripture that David will be in heaven with God?

Click to expand...

“For you will not leave my soul among the dead
or allow your holy one to rot in the grave.
You will show me the way of life,
granting me the joy of Your Presence
and the pleasures of living with You forever.” Psalm 16:10-11

Peter1000 said:

The one verse that talks about a third heaven is just a confirmation that we are on the right track. In the resurrection people will live in 1 of 3 heavens and will have full access to God or limited access to God depending upon which heaven they live in. It makes sense to me.

Click to expand...

How do people live in the atmosphere (1st heaven) or space (2nd heaven)?

Peter1000 said:

What I ignore is somebody coming up with 3 heavens that do not fit the resurrection scenario. That is why I ask, how does your 3 heavens relate to after the resurrection. Are some people going to be resurrected and live in the heavens where the birds fly, or are some going to be resurrected and then jettisoned into space? Do you see what I mean?

Click to expand...

You mean you ignore what doesn't fit your scenario. Your own questions should lead you to the answer. People aren't going to live in the sky or outer space. Therefore, the word heaven is used in a different context for people who lived thousands of years ago. The 3rd heaven in Scripture refers to where God resides.

Consider this Scripture from Revelation 21:1-4
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

According to Revelation, the first heaven passes away. There goes your terrestial kingdom, by the way. The new Jerusalem comes down from heaven from God. Notice it doesn't differentiate which heaven; there is only one where God resides. Also notice that the resurrected people will reside in the the New Jerusalem with God, not in any of the lds versions of heaven (terrestial, telestial, celestial). So that puts your resurrection scenario to rest. Ignore it if you wish, but the lds theology cannot stand up to the Bible.

Peter1000 said:

I actually haven't done a lot of study in the BOM as to what it says about becoming like God. My study has been on the bible and what it says on the same subject.

So I will take a look and see what it says, but in the D & C and the Pearl of Great Price, you will find more information about this subject.

As in the bible, we need to look at all the scriptures of the prophet JS to see all that he says about becoming like God and the nature of the Godhead.

Click to expand...

Neither The Book of Mormon or Bible teach more than ONE in the past, present or future .



1. Deuteronomy 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.



2. Deuteronomy 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD. [Note in Mark 12:28-34 how Jesus and a Jewish scribe he encountered understood this text.]



3. Deuteronomy32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.



4. 2 Samuel 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.



5. 1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.



6. 2 KINGS 5:15 — And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.



7. 2 Kings 19:15 — And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.



8. 1 Chronicles 17:20— O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.



9. Nehemiah 9:6 — Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.



10. Psalm 18:31 — For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?



11. Psalm 86:10 — For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.



12. Isaiah 37:16,20 — O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou has made heaven and earth. (20) Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.



13. Isaiah43:10,11 — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.



14. Isaiah44:6,8 — Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.



15. Isaiah 45:21 — Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time: who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.



16. Isaiah 46:9 — For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.



17. Hosea 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.



18. Joel 2:27 — And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.



19. Zechariah 14:9 — And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.



20. Mark 12:29-34 —And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.



21. John 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.



22. Romans 3:30 — Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.



23. 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 — As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.



24. Galatians 3:20 — Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.



25. Ephesians 4:6 — One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.



26. 1 Timothy 1:17 — Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.



27. 1 Timothy 2:5 — For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.



28. James 2:19 — Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.