Amillenialism and the nation of Israel

parousia70

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The destruction of Israel for a time was not done by Corporeal YHWH, nor was it Prophesied in Zechariah 14 to be so. Unless you’re willing to argue that Ancient Rome was God incarnate, you have a mega theological issue to resolve.

Do I?

Take a look at this, when David Defeated Saul and his armies on the Battlefield David described the battle thusly:

2 Samuel 22:8-16
“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.

12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.

16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

Are you willing to argue that David and His army were God Incarnate?

Who does David say did the Killing?
Him or God?

I don’t think you like that I acknowledge Israel was removed for a time, but is back now.

But it's not.
They are claimants without proof, just like the Mormons.
Well, have fun with Acts 1 that is PAINFULLY clear the Second Coming will be YeHoShua in PHYSICAL CORPOREAL form.

Acts 1:11 was fulfilled in Acts 7:55-56 and Acts 26:13-16
 
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Grip Docility

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Do I?

Take a look at this, when David Defeated Saul and his armies on the Battlefield David described the battle thusly:

2 Samuel 22:8-16
“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.

12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.

16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

Are you willing to argue that David and His army were God Incarnate?

Who does David say did the Killing?
Him or God?



But it's not.
They are claimants without proof, just like the Mormons.


Acts 1:11 was fulfilled in Acts 7:55-56 and Acts 26:13-16

Like I said... you’ll reach anywhere to mute clearly Literal passages. ;)
 
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Grip Docility

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What does this have to do with you disagreeing?



A subjective statement. The same could be said about your beliefs. Let’s stick to objective arguments.



Is that the “demeanor” you were talking about?



This doesn’t address with what you disagree about.

You disagree with Jesus stating “this generation would not pass away unti these things take place?”

You disagree with the parousia occurring after the tribulation?

You disagree with Greek word elements having the definition of rudimentary principles?

Descendants of Jacob still living in Israel isn’t subjective or objective. Many do. That’s a sociological fact that is verified by DNA, heritage and extra biblical recordings. Not all of them can trace to their Tribe, but it’s a fact...

As for This Generation shall not pass interpretations from preterist standards.... It gets used to strip National Israel of their Romans 11:25-31 promises at the least and goes so far as to claim the second coming has already occurred.

I take neither of those stances.

Do you?
 
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parousia70

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Okay... you have Spiritualized the Second Coming... how is this not capping off all of Prophecy?

You have spiritualized the Coming of the lord of the Vineyard.
Guess it's only ok when you spiritualize God's prophesied comings in Judgement, eh?

I Hold to a future Coming of Christ yet unfulfilled as the Creeds State.

I also Hold that AD70 was the Judgement Coming of Christ the apostles all said was "Near, at hand, coming soon, shortly, quickly, and about to take place" in their day.

Again, I specified Israel was temporarily put in time out. That is the context of the verse you gave. It was gone and now it is being Nationally restored. Else, God messed up in letting it be restored and I don’t think God makes mistakes. You?

Modern Israel has NO RELATIONSHIP to the pre desolation Theocracy is took its name from.
You have not shown any evidence to the contrary.

Can you?
Will you?
 
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Grip Docility

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You have spiritualized the Coming of the lord of the Vineyard.
Guess it's only ok when you spiritualize God's prophesied comings in Judgement, eh?



Modern Israel has NO RELATIONSHIP to the pre desolation Theocracy is took its name from.
You have not shown any evidence to the contrary.

Can you?
Will you?

What is a parable?

I didn’t Spiritualize it... Jesus did..... Wait for the Ben Shapiro Smackdown... IN PARABLE.

Acts 1 isn’t a Parable. See... The Bible shows us what’s Spiritualized... It is also clear where it is Literal.

Next?

Can I?
Will I?
I guess I did.

Are you denying that there’s a Trinity? BTW? <- Quid Pro Quo

Acts 1 says the Corporeal Jesus will return if Biblical context is to be believed... and I don’t even have to quote Greek to see that.
 
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parousia70

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Like I said... you’ll reach anywhere to mute clearly Literal passages. ;)

Will I?
Clearly Literal?

Every time Yahweh "came in the clouds" and was "seen by all eyes" throughout the OT He did so INVISIBLY. We have absolutely ZERO scriptural instruction to make that same language mean something POLAR OPPOSITE to the clear and consistent OT teaching when we find it in the NT.
ZERO.

YAHWEH WAS NOT SEEN BY HUMAN EYES HERE:

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

NOR HERE:

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

NOR HERE:

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

Tell me, my Hyper-Futurist sibling in the Lord, Where do you find the scriptural instruction to interpret the OT phrases "God rides a swift cloud" and was "seen by the eyes of all nations" in POLAR OPPOSITE FASHION to the NT phrase "He is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see"?


Friend, The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings cited above.

As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).
 
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Grip Docility

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Will I?
Clearly Literal?

Every time Yahweh "came in the clouds" and was "seen by all eyes" throughout the OT He did so INVISIBLY. We have absolutely ZERO scriptural instruction to make that same language mean something POLAR OPPOSITE to the clear and consistent OT teaching when we find it in the NT.
ZERO.

YAHWEH WAS NOT SEEN BY HUMAN EYES HERE:

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

NOR HERE:

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

NOR HERE:

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

Tell me, my Hyper-Futurist sibling in the Lord, Where do you find the scriptural instruction to interpret the OT phrases "God rides a swift cloud" and was "seen by the eyes of all nations" in POLAR OPPOSITE FASHION to the NT phrase "He is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see"?


Friend, The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings cited above.

As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

Wow, that’s a lot of fancy biblical Gymnastics...

Watch this... Israel of National Origin isn’t forgotten by God... Genesis to Revelation

The Second Coming will be Corporeal....

Genesis - Revelation

Scripture Whack a mole, that is in Theological shorthand is used by ALL denominations and many use the same verses, yet they all disagree.

Don’t you think scripture means what it says without having to chase down verse after verse that fits into Eisogesis?
 
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parousia70

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Watch this... Israel of National Origin isn’t forgotten by God... Genesis to Revelation

From Genesis to Revelation, What does scripture teach is God's Criteria in identifying "Israel of National Origin"?

DNA?
or is it
Faith and Obedience?
 
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Grip Docility

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From Genesis to Revelation, What does scripture teach is God's Criteria in identifying "Israel of National Origin"?

DNA?
or is it
Faith and Obedience?

Both...

Are you saved by Obedience?

If ya say yes... Paul would have a few words in Galatians. We Gentiles! We ain’t Israel. Spiritual Jews? In a heavenly sense, maybe, I’ld concede... Deuteronomy 6:4 / Deuteronomy 31:26 and Galatians 3, Galatians 4 are two different covenants.

Read Romans 9, Romans 10 and Romans 11 then note Romans 11:25-31 without spiritualizing a drop of it.

Though enemies of the Gospel, Elect for their fathers sakes... Paul said that.

Where are you going with this?
 
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parousia70

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Wow, that’s a lot of fancy biblical Gymnastics...

Watch this... Israel of National Origin isn’t forgotten by God... Genesis to Revelation

The Second Coming will be Corporeal....

Genesis - Revelation

Scripture Whack a mole, that is in Theological shorthand is used by ALL denominations and many use the same verses, yet they all disagree.

Don’t you think scripture means what it says without having to chase down verse after verse that fits into Eisogesis?


Again, you interpret the Biblical Phrases "God rides a swift cloud" and "was seen by the eyes of all nations" Spiritually, then do an about face and interpret the Biblical phrase "He is coming on the clouds and every eye will see" Hyper Literally, with nothing but man-made tradition for support.

I get that works for you, to interpret scripture whichever way suits your view.
In contrast, I prefer to let scripture inform and shape my view.
 
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parousia70

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Is this where we Spiritualize biblical texts than seek authorities that disagree?

Spoiler... not biting. You’re tampering with the factual evidence and nothing I say will sway you.

Did the Second Coming already occur?

Bible verse for "second coming" please.

There have demonstrably been MULTIPLE comings of Christ to earth since the ascension.

Which Bible verse are you referring to that you believe foretells of the "second"??
 
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Grip Docility

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Again, you interpret the Biblical Phrases "God rides a swift cloud" and "was seen by the eyes of all nations" Spiritually, then do an about face and interpret the Biblical phrase "He is coming on the clouds and every eye will see" Hyper Literally, with nothing but man-made tradition for support.

I get that works for you, to interpret scripture whichever way suits your view.
In contrast, I prefer to let scripture inform and shape my view.

I don’t have the convenience to Spiritualize the whole book like you do. I look for the contextual cues. I do go to the language for individual words sometimes... but it comes down to a lot of Gnat straining. I don’t want to end up saying that the second coming has already happened... (I meant I don’t want to swallow any camels)... Freudian Slip.
 
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Grip Docility

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Bible verse for "second coming" please.

There have demonstrably been MULTIPLE comings of Christ to earth since the ascension.

Which Bible verse are you referring to that you believe foretells of the "second"??

Already did. The whole chapter of 2 Peter 2, for starters... much of Revelation past chapter 20...

A bunch of other places that cross reference to full chapters lickety split.

No Scholarly effort of theological short hand required. Why is that?
 
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Grip Docility

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Are Both then required for true identification??

Before Christ... Lineage of DNA

After Christ... Israel is split.

Believing and Unbelieving... + DNA Romans 11:25-31 ... especially Romans 11:28 addresses this and Romans 9 backs the all Israel isn’t Israel statement...
 
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parousia70

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Before Christ... Lineage of DNA

Incorrect.

Israel by Covenant has ALWAYS been extended to Jew and Gentile ALIKE:

Initial confirmation of Israel's ethnic diversity, with God's covenant extended to Jew and Gentile alike:

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Confirmation of Israel's increasing ethnic diversity, with a “mixed multitude” accompanying them in the exodus:

Exodus 12
37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

Recurrent references to the "stranger” i.e. Gentiles who were to be accepted by Israel as their own, and to whom God's covenant applied upon compliance with its requirements:

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

Numbers 15:16
One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.


Faith in and obedience to God and His covenant requirements were His sole conditions.
Physical DNA was never one of those requirements.
 
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Grip Docility

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Incorrect.

Israel by Covenant has ALWAYS been extended to Jew and Gentile ALIKE:

Initial confirmation of Israel's ethnic diversity, with God's covenant extended to Jew and Gentile alike:

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Confirmation of Israel's increasing ethnic diversity, with a “mixed multitude” accompanying them in the exodus:

Exodus 12
37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

Recurrent references to the "stranger” i.e. Gentiles who were to be accepted by Israel as their own, and to whom God's covenant applied upon compliance with its requirements:

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

Numbers 15:16
One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.


Faith in and obedience to God and His covenant requirements were His sole conditions.
Physical DNA was never one of those requirements.

The exceptions you speak of are obvious. Those are clearly understood exceptions found in the Pentateuch. We’ve seen this with Rehab and so forth.

You’re playing a gotcha game and grasping at verses to supersede clearly written facts.

You haven’t suffered the trials Israel of a physical lineage has suffered. You seem to miss the historically obvious point that Israel has never enjoyed peace as a people and nation for any extended period of time.
 
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