This is how the MATH adds up.

DeepWater said:

God requires something of you, to give you His eternal salvation.
You have to BELIEVE in Jesus.
Faith is not the savior. Faith can't save you......Jesus saves you, because you did what God required.
John 6:29

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GodsGrace101 said:

Who said you get saved by obeying?
Who said works save a person?

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Kaon said:

Your image is broken .

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DeepWater said:

I wanted to show you something, that might be a huge revelation to someone with a sincere heart, who has not realized an unfortunate fact regarding their own personal (Christian) belief system.

Lets do the math.
It works out like this......

What is your personal Savior ????

Let me show you a few worldwide favorites that wont work out, in the end..

----------------------------

A person says......"we believe that salvation is the Cross, but that you can "fall away" and be lost.

A.) The savior is always what YOU BELIEVE KEEPS YOU SAVED.
So, in this case, the Savior to this person has become...>"not falling away".
So, where did the Cross go?

or,

A person says.....>"he who endures to the end, the same shall be saved".

A.) for this person, their Savior is "ENDURING to the end".
So, where did the Cross go?

or,

A person says.....> "As long as you hold unto your FAITH, you are still saved".

A.) for this person, holding unto their faith is their personal Savior.
So, where did the Cross go?

or,

A person says....> "As long as i KEEP ON working out my salvation with fear and trembling, i stay saved.

A.) this person is trusting in their lifestyle as their personal Savior.
So, where did the Cross go?


or,

A person says...."As long as i dont apostatize or backslide, i stay saved.

A.) This person is trusting in keeping themselves from apostatizing or backsliding as their personal Savior.
So, where did the Cross go?


Now see how that works?
In all 5 cases the MATH seems good, but the end result is DEVOUT LEGALISM.
This is Christ rejection pretending its the Faith that God accepts.
Paul wrote the letter to the Galatians to expose it.
The end result : is that all these types have "fallen from Grace".
The end result : is that all these people have replaced the CROSS with what they are to DO, as their particular heretical method to try keep themselves saved.



blessings,


<dw><

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DeepWater said:

Zetetica is simply agreeing that the blood of Jesus that saved you, keeps you saved.
So, all she is doing, is agreeing with the finished work of the Cross, as any believer should be doing.

And im not sure what "new teaching" you are talking about, but you are not honestly describing what i've taught in 10 Threads and 300 posts, GG101.

You accuse me of teaching that we can live in sin, because we are saved, and that is as lie.
Don't do that.
Do not lie, when you talk about what i teach.
I mean it.
The fact is, OSAS, is not this "license to sin" misrepresentation that you are posting about.
I dont even know what that is....but its not OSAS.
No one who believes that WE are saved and Kept saved by Jesus... OSAS, would teach that we can live in sin.
Where do you read this lying nonsense, as it ridiculous.
Ive never taught this, and noone that understand what OSAS, means, which you don't, would ever teach that nonsense.

God calls us to be HOLY< but he also has made us RIGHTEOUS by the Blood of Jesus.
That is hy God accepts us., and for NO OTHER REASON, and certainly not because we keep commandments or anything else that can't actually save you.

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DeepWater said:

It takes me some time to get to all the responses.
I've written a lot of Threads, and these generate a lot of multiple posts, and it takes me time to get to everyone.
Im careful, but, im sure ive missed some.

So, you are asking me what to "believe in/on Christ" means?
This means to " do the work of God". which is "to believe on (have Faith in) Jesus".
John 6:29
This is related to becoming born again.
And the commandments that Jesus tells you to worry about, specifically, are not the 10 Commandments as a whole.
Jesus explains that all the commandments can be obeyed by doing this...
"Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and your neighbor as yourself".
Those are the ONLY COMMANDMENTS that Jesus is specifically trying to get you to obey.
And the reason is this..
The commandments, are designed to get you to not do some "Acts".
And all of these acts, harm, ither God's integrity, or His status.... or they harm man.
So, what God is saying by "Love God, Love Man", is that, when you LOVE THEM< you will not try to harm them, or hurt them, and you will respect them.
So, that is the idea of LOVE......that when you love someone....You want to be good to them, and never do you want to cause them pain or harm.
LOVE, will keep you from doing this, so, if you are always full of LOVE< you wont break any commandments., as breaking commandments is really just causing Harm to God or to Man.
Thats the idea.

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Calvin_1985 said:

From the experience of it, it comes from an understanding that Jesus dying for our sin has paid the price for us being reconciled to God. It's the short way to the foundation that is built. It's not a matter of thinking that we are saved and allowed to live in sinful ways from there on out, but the we are saved to begin a new life being changed. The things that follow our believing in Christ Jesus is forever found and solidified by him and Him alone. The "works" and fruits produced afterwards are a result of the Gospel Tree growing in our lives. When we do fall away from the Faith in Christ alone, it doesn't mean that we lost Salvation, but that we have given ourselves over to something that is a fake gospel that leads to a place that is not the will of God or the Promised Land.

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[ When we are led astray, Jesus comes to us and finds us because He already paid the sacrifice and because we are His. The seed of the Gospel that is down in hearts, just like the Remnant of Israel that Father Kept throughout Israel's History remained, He gave to us upon One placing their Faith in Jesus Messiah. Everything outside of His will for our Lives and except for The Gospel that has been planted in us, if not of Him, will evtually show it's fruit and the truth, whether it is of Father or not, will be shown by trial of fire. If it is of Father, it will stand, if not, it will all perish. Yet, one thing remains, that Seed. The Tree is cut down and the stump is left and Jesus, in His Love that is also in Father, will bring us back to the His Love, His peace, His rest.

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Many do fall away in the wilderness just like Israel, and they two never enter into His rest, as they are doing everything they can to please The Lord and use Scripture to back up the justification they believe keeps themselves sealed by God. It's a rejection of Faith for a Faith in ones own work to keep what Jesus permanently did with his own Blood.

I hope this makes sense to you.

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DeepWater said:

When you are stating that a rejection of REAL Faith, is the Legalist who has fallen away from real faith in Christ to stay saved, and have started believing in a false faith, ... a faith in themselves to keep themselves saved, by commandment keeping, and all their self efforts.....= YOU ARE CORRECT... they have committed a "rejection of faith", they have committed and are committing an offense against the Blood of Jesus, when they turn from the Cross to Legalism as their new faith in themselves to keep themselves saved.
if you ask a Legalist..>"what are you trusting IN< to get you to heaven"...
They can not honestly answer....>"im trusting in Christ alone".
And that is because they are not trusting in Christ alone.
And that is why they will complete their answer with..."but, you have to keep......you have to keep doing, you have to, have to, do, do, .....and do,....and keep doing".
That is all SELF Faith, that is pretending to trust in Jesus.
That is "falling from Grace" and into, "what I MUST DO< to stay saved", and then, they show your what they feel is their SAVIOR.
Here comes the list......10 commandments, holding onto their faith, works, works, works, enduring to the end"...etc.
All self effort.
The Cross has disappeared from their Faith.
They are now on the Cross, saving themselves, with their list of "don't dos".

Paul in a letter, said to some Galatian Legalists says...."are you so FOOLISH< that, you trusted in Christ alone, and now you are trusting in yourself , for your salvation"? "back under the Law of commandments"... "fallen from Grace"...
= Legalism.

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Zetetica said:

More people than I care to think about, actually.

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GodsGrace101 said:

1. The other poster,,,@Zetetica is agreeing that Jesus finished a work on the cross. But what work did He finish? He finished HIS work on the cross. Jesus died to redeem up from sin and death...THAT work is finished. If we want to join God, we accept that sacrifice that Jesus made for believers and at that point God declares us justified.

Does it end there?
Have we no part to play?
Why did Jesus leave us with so many commands (which are covered the the Great Two Commands) if we have nothing to do?

Should I post AGAIN, the many verses that declare we are to do good works/deeds?

After Justification, are we not to be sanctified?
Sanctification is a cooperative effort between us and God. God tells us His will and we do it.
Ephesians 2:10 goes very much ignored.

2. The "new teaching" I'm referring to is the one YOU are teaching....that Jesus did it all and we are not required to do anything. From the Early church and up to about 50 years ago, this idea did not even exist.

3. I did not accuse you PERSONALLY of living in sin. What I'm saying is that this teaching DOES bring many to that. And since it does, you put their salvation in danger since God DOES require obedience. Posters have plainly stated that they could do what they want and remain saved. This is a dangerous belief because we are to be holy, as God is holy.

We are saved by grace through faith.
We are kept saved by following the Commandments of God and/or Jesus.

If we stray from God, we risk becoming lost.
Like the lost prodigal son...
or the lost sheep that wandered away.

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GodsGrace101 said:

No one on any of these forums has ever stated that we are saved by works.

We are saved by grace through faith.
Faith is what saved those in the O.T. and those in the N.T. This does not change. Faith saves.

What is misunderstood is that after salvation we are required to obey God. Would you agree?

The lost are not required to obey God...you can't get anymore lost than lost.

The saved are required to obey God because God has always demanded obedience, from Adam to Revelation. This is called sanctification.

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GodsGrace101 said:

I'm not sure what you mean by the "short way to the foundation that is built".

I agree that we are saved to begin a new life in Christ. But the way you and some others make it sound like we can't ever fall away and that DOES lead some to live a life of sin. It's plainly stated by some.

Also, falling away DOES mean you become lost,,,what you're speaking about above might be sin. If we sin we ask forgiveness and continue on...If we fall away to the faith, we become lost. Fall away means to leave, abandon, the faith we have.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Revelation 2:4-5
But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.


Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.


James 5:19-20
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.


and many more....
It's clear from scripture that we CAN fall away and become lost.


God always kept a remnant in Israel,,,but not ALL of Israel was saved...only those that had faith in God and obeyed Him. Blessings to those that obeyed,,,curses to those that did not. God has always required obedience.

Also, as to trial by fire I believe you're referring to
1 Corinthians 3:1-15
If you read it carefully, you'll find that it is not speaking about US going through fire, but the Apostles, in the case Paul and Apollos, but all those who taught were required to teach correctly the foundation of Christ...if they did not teach correctly THEY would be tested as through fire.



Yes, it all made sense and I replied, however I don't understand your very last paragraph. You seem to be agreeing that some DO fall away into the wilderness....

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Zetetica said:

For me, my view doesn't give me a license to sin. Perhaps it gives others such a strange perspective? For me, I strive to love God. Due to this love, I strive to please God. I also have the Holy Ghost and He comforts me and leads me to do what is good and away from what is wicked. Furthermore, He leads me to DESIRE to do what is good. For me, these desires are foreign as I had not had them before; I had the opposite desires. I know I'm saved because the Lord is producing in me good fruits.

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GodsGrace101 said:

Sorry Z, I can't remember if I've answered the above.
I agree with you and am happy to hear what you've written..however, yes, some do use this idea of OSAS to live as they wish since they believe they cannot become lost.

If you stay on these forums long enough, eventually you will read this yourself.

(I'm not saying that everyone that believes in OSAS lives a life of sin).

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Zetetica said:

I have read and heard this doctrine plenty of times. I have seen it abused as well.

It is my view that OSAS isn't a license to sin, it's an assurance for those who are saved, that we may have peace, rather than constantly question if our salvation has been lost. Once again, if we are saved, our desire and effort not to sin as well as our desire and effort to please God is organic; it's a result of our adoption as sons and daughters of The Most High God.

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