Transgender Ideology is “Totalitarian”

FireDragon76

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Now you're trying to determine me to be foreign to the "Mind of Christ." What ever happened to accepting people as you encounter them?
As for your evaluation of what I'm doing, I'm not treating anyone as a debating point. We're talking about actions and ideologies here.

You aren't worth debating, it would be a waste. All I can do is pray for the people you will hurt with your misguided beliefs and ignorance.

Again, I would ask the moderators to close this thread. This isn't a fair treatment of the issue, it's merely an attempt to heresy hunt and bash minorities.
 
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Aldebaran

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He was still implying in his usage of that text gives him the ability to know God's mind.

Instrumentalizing the Scriptures is another thing that the Greco-Roman Synthesis often did, and is just the sort of thing Luther was criticizing. The Word forms us through Law and Gospel, it is not a weapon we are free to use to beat down other people... that shows a clear lack of Christian charity that is again not the Mind of Christ.

What's this big emphasis on what Luther thought? He's not God, and isn't descended from God and is no longer around.
This idea that we have to just accept what's going on in this world and allow the poisonous teachings and ideologies to continue without a challenge on the basis of treating people as we want to be treated is no different than "live and let live". It's that liberal theology that's causing people to go astray by allowing sin to continue, and thus encouraging it to.
 
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FireDragon76

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What's this big emphasis on what Luther thought? He's not God, and isn't descended from God and is no longer around.
This idea that we have to just accept what's going on in this world and allow the poisonous teachings and ideologies to continue without a challenge on the basis of treating people as we want to be treated is no different than "live and let live". It's that liberal theology that's causing people to go astray by allowing sin to continue, and thus encouraging it to.

Live and let live is a good starting place, dude.
 
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Aldebaran

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You aren't worth debating, it would be a waste. All I can do is pray for the people you will hurt with your misguided beliefs and ignorance.

Nice attitude. At least it gives me a better idea of where you're coming from.
 
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FireDragon76

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What did Jesus say that indicated that?

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "love your neighbor as yourself". The whole of the Law and the Prophets teaches this.
 
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Aldebaran

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I am not their judge, nor am I God.

You wouldn't have to be. But you can certainly tell the difference between right and wrong, can't you? You can recognize how the family structure is being systematically dismantled, and that a country without the family isn't going to last very long. First, marriage is redefined to include homosexuality, and now even the definition of man and woman is being changed. Doesn't that remind you of verses that indicate Truth as being something that would be destroyed in these days?

If you don't want to boil to death, the time to jump out of the pot is before the water starts boiling.
 
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Aldebaran

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"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "love your neighbor as yourself". The whole of the Law and the Prophets teaches this.

Does that mean that if you want to have an affair with a woman you're not married to, others should have no problem with it either, lest they violate the "judge not lest you be judged" idea that people who don't like being corrected like to quote?
 
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FireDragon76

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Does that mean that if you want to have an affair with a woman you're not married to, others should have no problem with it either, lest they violate the "judge not lest you be judged" idea that people who don't like being corrected like to quote?

The people that actually have interests in that issue are the hypothetical spouses of whoever you are having an affair with, not bystanders such as you.
 
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FireDragon76

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You wouldn't have to be. But you can certainly tell the difference between right and wrong, can't you?

No, I can't... at least not in the manner you suggest. I'm a sinner, so are you. Sin effects every aspect of the human person, including their judgment. Being a Christian does not give people superhuman powers of discernment in that manner.

You can recognize how the family structure is being systematically dismantled, and that a country without the family isn't going to last very long. First, marriage is redefined to include homosexuality, and now even the definition of man and woman is being changed. Doesn't that remind you of verses that indicate Truth as being something that would be destroyed in these days?

No. I don't instrumentalize the Scriptures to use them as a weapon against people that threaten my fragile worldview. I recognize the Way of Jesus as a way of self-giving love, not lashing out in fear against perceived bogiemen.
 
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Aldebaran

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The people that actually have interests in that issue are the hypothetical spouses of whoever you are having an affair with, not bystanders such as you.

Does that mean you would have no interest in what other Christians or Lutherans are doing that could tear their life and their family apart? Sounds more like, "if it doesn't affect me personally, I don't care".
Perhaps you see the scenario I mentioned as being an issue with the people only. Let's look at it as a discussion about actions. Is adultery ok, or is it a sin and should be discouraged?
 
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Aldebaran

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No, I can't... at least not in the manner you suggest. I'm a sinner, so are you. Sin effects every aspect of the human person, including their judgment. Being a Christian does not give people superhuman powers of discernment in that manner.

Then how did Paul admonish the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 4:14-21? Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 4:14-21 - New International Version

Should he have just said, "You have become arrogant, but I won't judge you because I wouldn't want to be judged that way, so just keep doing what you're doing."?

No. I don't instrumentalize the Scriptures to use them as a weapon against people that threaten my fragile worldview. I recognize the Way of Jesus as a way of self-giving love, not lashing out in fear against perceived bogiemen.

Your mischaracterization is amusing in that you're trying to paint me as the bad guy now because you aren't liking what I say. Destruction and sin and perversion are what they are and need to be brought to light if they're to be dealt with. Just as alcoholism or any other addiction needs to be identified before it can be dealt with, so do poisonous ideologies.
 
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FireDragon76

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Your mischaracterization is amusing in that you're trying to paint me as the bad guy now because you aren't liking what I say. Destruction and sin and perversion are what they are and need to be brought to light if they're to be dealt with. Just as alcoholism or any other addiction needs to be identified before it can be dealt with, so do poisonous ideologies.

It's not your job to "deal" with other people, that's God's job.
 
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dms1972

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Not according to the traditional Lutheran understanding. The world is not an artifact, but is a place where God is present and making all things new.

Yes, God is at work to renew, or restore the creation. If you read Luther's commentary on Genesis, particularly Genesis 1:27 he says:

"Without doubt therefore, as God was so delighted with this his counsel and workmanship in the creation of man, so he is now delighted in the restoration of that his original glorious work, through his Son our Deliverer, Jesus Christ."

"Moses here mentions both sexes together. That woman might not appear to be excluded from all the glory of the life to come.... However Moses here joins the two sexes together and says that God created them male and female for a further reason that he might thereby signify that Eve also being alike created of God, alike with Adam became thereby a partaker of the divine image and similitude, and also of the dominion over all things."

On Genesis 2:2 Luther says that "The Sabbath or rest of the Sabbath here signifies that God so rested, as not to have any further design of creating any other heaven or earth. It does not mean that God ceased to preserve and govern the heaven and the earth, which he had now created and finished."

For Luther God's Word in creation has continuing power and efficacy "Let the sea bring forth fishes" etc.

"Now all these words of God remain unto the present day. And therefore it is that we see the multiplication of all these creatures go on without cessation or end."

"God has ceased from his creation-work, but he has not ceased from his government-work."

The 'making all things new" that you refer to I understand to mean in the case of mankind a restoration to the original Image in which he was made.
 
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FireDragon76

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Yes, God is at work to renew, or restore the creation. If you read Luther's commentary on Genesis, particularly Genesis 1:27 he says:

"Without doubt therefore, as God was so delighted with this his counsel and workmanship in the creation of man, so he is now delighted in the restoration of that his original glorious work, through his Son our Deliverer, Jesus Christ."

"Moses here mentions both sexes together. That woman might not appear to be excluded from all the glory of the life to come.... However Moses here joins the two sexes together and says that God created them male and female for a further reason that he might thereby signify that Eve also being alike created of God, alike with Adam became thereby a partaker of the divine image and similitude, and also of the dominion over all things."

On Genesis 2:2 Luther says that "The Sabbath or rest of the Sabbath here signifies that God so rested, as not to have any further design of creating any other heaven or earth. It does not mean that God ceased to preserve and govern the heaven and the earth, which he had now created and finished."

For Luther God's Word in creation has continuing power and efficacy "Let the sea bring forth fishes" etc.

"Now all these words of God remain unto the present day. And therefore it is that we see the multiplication of all these creatures go on without cessation or end."

"God has ceased from his creation-work, but he has not ceased from his government-work."

The 'making all things new" that you refer to I understand to mean in the case of mankind a restoration to the original Image in which he was made.

I don't understand the divine image in crudely biological terms. If we encountered a race of space aliens on another world that had only one gender, I would not assume they could not possibly also be created in the divine image.

I also don't understand Genesis 1-2 as some kind of prescriptive anthropology, necessarily. The ideal state post fall is conforming to the image of Christ ,in which there is no male or female. That means those things simply don't have the importance that your average evangelical thinks they do.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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God can make people whatever God wills. Creation is not a past event, the world is not an artifact of a Deist God.

Are you stating that a person who thinks they are the opposite sex is the will of GOD?

Is not our bodies the temple of GOD?

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

GOD the son created our bodies, God the Son redeemed them, and God the Holy Spirit indwells them. This makes our body the very temple of the Holy Spirit of God.

Yes creation is a past event till New Jerusalem comes down from heaven and all things are created new.
 
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FireDragon76

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Are you stating that a person who thinks they are the opposite sex is the will of GOD?

Is not our bodies the temple of GOD?

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

That's an abuse of that pasasge's meaning. It's distorting it for a legalistic purpose. You don't really believe in justification by faith alone if you think people go to hell for altering their bodies.

And Paul is speaking in the plural there, not the singular. He's speaking of the Church, not individual bodies.
 
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dms1972

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I think the ideology and narratives surrounding this whole transgender issue do need to be discussed and where necessary critiqued, without making the topic any more toxic.

I have read a fair bit on the subject and its not as always as simple as either the religious right, or for that matter the trans-lobby want to make it. The religious right sometimes seem to see only the sin issue, they don't seem to always take into account the possibility of trauma, or lack of a secure base that may have led to gender dysphoria in the first place. The trans-lobby also err by refusing to recognise these potential factors in childhood development, and the possiblity of them being understood and resolved in some instances through psychotherapy. I think they also err when they hit out at psychologists who want to proceed with more caution, who recognise the possibility of desistance, and who don't want to start kids down the line of transition unnecessarily.

The issue for the present seems to be how to do justice to the complexity of the factors that may be involved in the issue of gender dsyphoria and how the debate can be made less toxic.

The guy in this case seems to perhaps have been over-zealous in the lengths he went to point out to people Oger's biological sex.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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altering their bodies.

Not me the LORD Said

Leviticus 19:28
Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
 
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FireDragon76

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Not me the LORD Said
.

Typical argument from fundamentalist legalists. Take responsibility for your own interpretations of Scriptures.

Nothing you say endears me to the SDA religion, BTW. It just confirms what I suspect, you use the Bible to manipulate people rather than to have trust in Christ for salvation.
 
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