Law of sin and death?

Jonathan Mathews said:

So you're guilty of adultery. According to your own judgment, you should be stoned. Now who should stone you?

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Move on... that is getting into the legalism argument which is not the subject of this thread.

Jonathan Mathews said:

So you're guilty of adultery. According to your own judgment, you should be stoned. Now who should stone you?

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That's my job.

visionary said:

Move on... that is getting into the legalism argument which is not the subject of this thread.

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On the contrary; the law of sin and death is pure legalism and that is what was cancelled by Jesus.

visionary said:

Move on... that is getting into the legalism argument which is not the subject of this thread.

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What is the subject of this thread? I thought it was the Law of Sin and Death? He has admitted he is guilty of the Law.

klutedavid said:

That's my job.

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Have you looked at a woman with lust?

Dave-W said:

“Without sin” in that context (read the legal rulings of Judea in that day) meant not complicit in that sin.

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Yes...Not only that but the persons ( two witnesses required) which had to cast the first stones. They were large and usually killed the guilty. This was done so that anyone which was later to be discovered to have lied would then be guilty of murder. So, the back drop here is two eyewitnesses were necessary.
Also they were doing this to accuse Jesus. What did Jesus do? He went around healing people and saying Your sins are forgiven you. They brought this woman to him to see how he would forgive her sin. Instead, Jesus merely told them to carry out the law. He knew it was a set up.

Jonathan Mathews said:

What is the subject of this thread? I thought it was the Law of Sin and Death? He has admitted he is guilty of the Law.


Have you looked at a woman with lust?

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As an inquisitor my personal life is irrelevant it is the same as a judge sitting in a court. Judges do not say I am not worthy to pass a death sentence.

The subject of the thread is the abolition of the law of sin and death. Therefore if sin does not lead to death in the Christian life then we have been liberated. Jesus came to save those destined to death which is what the law determined. I cannot sin in Jesus that is impossible.

Dave-W said:

I do not believe James was talking about capital punishment there.

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I do not get why this is significant concerning sin??

klutedavid said:

As an inquisitor my personal life is irrelevant it is the same as a judge sitting in a court. Judges do not say I am not worthy to pass a death sentence.

The subject of the thread is the abolition of the law of sin and death. Therefore if sin does not lead to death in the Christian life then we have been liberated. Jesus came to save those destined to death which is what the law determined. I cannot sin in Jesus that is impossible.

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A judge who says, "You are to die for X" but has committed the same transgression himself, yet without death, is UNWORTHY to pass the Judgement on another. That is an unrighteous, wicked Judge.

That is why Jesus said "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone". No one except for Jesus Christ is worthy to Judge. And He IS the Judge of all things. He will Judge the living and the Dead. My point is that Jesus Christ did not stone people for sins against the Law of Moses. That's because each time people came to him with their sins, Jesus Christ took their sins upon Himself. He carried them in His own body to the cross, where He BECAME sin for us. The Perfect Christ, who is the Light of the World, got His soul FILLED with our sins. JESUS became sin for us, so that we might become the Righteous of God in Him.

klutedavid said:

As an inquisitor my personal life is irrelevant it is the same as a judge sitting in a court. Judges do not say I am not worthy to pass a death sentence.

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They can be disqualified for many reasons. So too the same for witnesses.

We read the Gospels and see Judas was bribed with money, and his accusers paid him the bribe. This itself disqualifies them as judges and witnesses against Christ.

Dave-W said:

Does this mean the death penalty is off the table?

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Do you think it is possible that the law of sin and death is not a legal practice law, but a law of nature . . . of spiritual nature - - of how things work in a person's character while he or she is not submitting to God?

Jonathan Mathews said:

A judge who says, "You are to die for X" but has committed the same transgression himself, yet without death, is UNWORTHY to pass the Judgement on another. That is an unrighteous, wicked Judge.

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We would be in a predicament if all judges needed to resign. Parents would be unworthy to discipline their children. Ministers could not discipline the congregation.

That is why Jesus said "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone". No one except for Jesus Christ is worthy to Judge. And He IS the Judge of all things. He will Judge the living and the Dead. My point is that Jesus Christ did not stone people for sins against the Law of Moses. That's because each time people came to him with their sins, Jesus Christ took their sins upon Himself. He carried them in His own body to the cross, where He BECAME sin for us. The Perfect Christ, who is the Light of the World, got His soul FILLED with our sins. JESUS became sin for us, so that we might become the Righteous of God in Him.

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Correct and that is why the law of sin and death no longer applies to us. We are already dead in Christ, we have been baptized into His death. So that we will rise in Christ on that last day when He returns.

Dead in Christ means that the law of sin and death is no longer applicable to us. In Christ we cannot sin!

ralliann said:

They can be disqualified for many reasons. So too the same for witnesses.

We read the Gospels and see Judas was bribed with money, and his accusers paid him the bribe. This itself disqualifies them as judges and witnesses against Christ.

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Jesus came to reprieve those that were sentenced to death. Jesus came to redeem the dead not the living. You were dead in your sin before accepting the reconciliation and your flesh is still dead in Christ.

There are no good and bad people, all were and are evil whether in thought or deed. All were and are unrighteous in their flesh.

klutedavid said:

We would be in a predicament if all judges needed to resign. Parents would be unworthy to discipline their children. Ministers could not discipline the congregation.

Correct and that is why the law of sin and death no longer applies to us. We are already dead in Christ, we have been baptized into His death. So that we will rise in Christ on that last day when He returns.

Dead in Christ means that the law of sin and death is no longer applicable to us. In Christ we cannot sin!

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"Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins." Ecclesiastes 7:20

Do you have any sin right now??? Be careful how you answer......

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8

So what is going on in our bodies???? There are 2 laws at work...

Romans 7:22-25
"22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin."

Paul shows us that when we are Born of God, we receive God's Spirit and a clean soul (mind). But there is still sin in our flesh until our bodies are resurrected like Jesus' body was.

Only God is able to keep you from sinning...

"To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy" Jude 1:24

So I will not say "You WILL sin in the future" because that is a curse upon you. God is able to keep you from sinning. But there is not a righteous man on earth who goes continually and does not sin.

So instead I will say this.... IF you sin....

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9)

Tone said:

But a believer may commit adultery and if he/she lives in a society where it is punishable by death, they may receive that death penalty.

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I thought we were talking strictly biblical rules, but will reread the OP to see.

klutedavid said:

I will raise you on that hand.

1 John 1:8-10
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

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Remember John is not contradicting himself. All have a sin nature and all have actually sinned in the past. But as we abide in Christ we sin not. John said he wrote what he did that we sin not.

With all these outsiders, this thread is not getting into the meatier matters of the thread. Since the law stone is the stumbling block for them. May I suggest you leave this thread and allow MJ only to post.

Dave-W said:

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.​

What exactly does this mean? According to Torah:

Leviticus 20:10
‘If there is a man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, one who commits adultery with his friend’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.​

Does this mean the death penalty is off the table? I know our Lord let a woman caught "in the very act" off the death penalty hook on 2 grounds: 1 - no one would testify against her and 2 - no one grabbed the man.

So how does that relate to this?

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.​

Is that person liable to the death penalty?

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A guarded heart and mind with thoughts held captive? Helmet of salvation comes to mind.

And the only capital crime is the unforgivable crime of Murder.
Being cut off or removed is given as an example of members of the community body in vayikra(leviticus). put your members to death is a shared teaching from ole sh'aul that is comparable to Yeshua instructing people to remove limbs and eyes, etc.

colossians 3:5

Romans 6:23

klutedavid said:

Jesus came to reprieve those that were sentenced to death. Jesus came to redeem the dead not the living. You were dead in your sin before accepting the reconciliation and your flesh is still dead in Christ.

There are no good and bad people, all were and are evil whether in thought or deed. All were and are unrighteous in their flesh.

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So, we can have no standards for persons sitting in Judgement in a court of law??

pinacled said:

A guarded heart and mind with thoughts held captive? Helmet of salvation comes to mind.

And the only capital crime is the unforgivable crime of Murder.
Being cut off or removed is given as an example of members of the community body in vayikra(leviticus). put your members to death is a shared teaching from ole sh'aul that is comparable to Yeshua instructing people to remove limbs and eyes, etc.

colossians 3:5

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I'm also curious as to how so many have assumed the woman was guilty of adultery at all. Especially after the account here is described as a snare(trap). Being that our Lord is far wiser than Solomon(those that lay the snare will be caught in their own trap[paraphrased]) I imagine He knew what they were up to all along. Many times the Lord told people things about their lives that were impossible to know unless....

And What about righteous judgement and impartiality have people missed in this weigtier lesson like innocent before proven guilty. Though it may not be implied. Hypothetically the man caught in adultery was forgiven while the woman had charges levied against her. How is that fair in the scales of justice.
Then again, its very likely she was simply involved in the sham and The Lord knew this when telling her to sin no more.
If so I imagine she would have discontinued associating with such persons per unequally yoked.

And then there is the unlikely traditional teaching that this woman was a prostitute.
I very much doubt that considering that would mean all the men accusing her were the guilty party that caught her by proxy of direct involvement.

Just my 2 shekels worth, pun intended