Natural Family Planning & Number of Children

rusmeister · May 5, 2019

RobNJ said:
Unfortunately, Rus' apparent assumption that he has a more accurate grasp of the Fathers, than the Priests, and Bishops, sounds more protestant (Like a variation of the non-denom, fundie "me & MY bible" ), than Father Matt's posts, in this thread

Hi Rob,
What I can be SURE of, is what Christians have believed throughout history. All literature backs it up. The histories back it up. The legends, myths and fairy tales back it up. Everything actually SAID by most of the fathers backs it up. I grasp that things like contraception and divorce between practicing Christians (including Orthodox Christians) has never, ever, been OK. Until now. It's not just that Holy Tradition backs what I'm saying. EVERYTHING backs it, and nothing at all prior to 1930 anywhere challenges it. I think the reasons anyone is saying anything at variance with historical teaching known to and taken for granted by all Christians, and not just the Orthodox, are connected to the Lambeth Conference, the development of the Pill, and the sexual revolution.

If that sounds Protestant, then I think we have radically different understandings of the word. If I sound absolutely certain, to the point of sounding like a fundamentalist Protestant evangelical, that the Orthodox Church, and Christendom in general were in agreement about these things, it's because I am that sure. As sure as that there was an American Civil War. But being absolutely sure doesn't make one "Protestant", "sola Scriptura", "Sola Fathers", or fundamentalist (noting that having a fundament, a foundation, is a good thing).

So you tell me how it's OK for the Church to change its teaching on sexuality over time. If everyone will admit that that is the problem, and we ought to talk about THAT, and not psychoanalyze me, then I'm done. That's the issue, not Rusmeister's 'radical fundamentalism'.

ArmyMatt · May 5, 2019

rusmeister said:
Hi Rob,
What I can be SURE of, is what Christians have believed throughout history. All literature backs it up. The histories back it up. The legends, myths and fairy tales back it up. Everything actually SAID by most of the fathers backs it up. I grasp that things like contraception and divorce between practicing Christians (including Orthodox Christians) has never, ever, been OK. Until now. It's not just that Holy Tradition backs what I'm saying. EVERYTHING backs it, and nothing at all prior to 1930 anywhere challenges it. I think the reasons anyone is saying anything at variance with historical teaching known to and taken for granted by all Christians, and not just the Orthodox, are connected to the Lambeth Conference, the development of the Pill, and the sexual revolution.

If that sounds Protestant, then I think we have radically different understandings of the word. If I sound absolutely certain, to the point of sounding like a fundamentalist Protestant evangelical, that the Orthodox Church, and Christendom in general were in agreement about these things, it's because I am that sure. As sure as that there was an American Civil War. But being absolutely sure doesn't make one "Protestant", "sola Scriptura", "Sola Fathers", or fundamentalist (noting that having a fundament, a foundation, is a good thing).

So you tell me how it's OK for the Church to change its teaching on sexuality over time. If everyone will admit that that is the problem, and we ought to talk about THAT, and not psychoanalyze me, then I'm done. That's the issue, not Rusmeister's 'radical fundamentalism'.

most everyone on here has said that is a problem. contraception is wrong, divorce is wrong, same sex attraction is wrong.

that has not been what I have taken issue with. there has been no psychoanalysis of you (from me). I only commented on your action of bringing up to US about what you see in your other parishioners. that is not something for us on a forum page to know.

not a single Father will say that the laity should bring up something like that.

abacabb3 · May 5, 2019

RobNJ said:
Unfortunately, Rus' apparent assumption that he has a more accurate grasp of the Fathers, than the Priests, and Bishops, sounds more protestant (Like a variation of the non-denom, fundie "me & MY bible" ), than Father Matt's posts, in this thread

THis is not a fair criticism. For one, my spiritual father and former bishop agree with Rus. Second, we quoted fathers here agreeing with Rus. Third, no one quoted fathers arguing against Rus. Four, Rus is not saying to not ask one's priest nor is he judging whats in individuals' heads from what I see. Fifth, we have seen two priests here essentially agree with Rus inasmuch as both admit that birth control normatively should be avoided as well as sex not for procreation.

So, why are we Orthodox supposedly "Agreeing" but speaking with such a tone of disagreement?

RobNJ · May 5, 2019

abacabb3 said:
THis is not a fair criticism. For one, my spiritual father and former bishop agree with Rus. Second, we quoted fathers here agreeing with Rus. Third, no one quoted fathers arguing against Rus. Four, Rus is not saying to not ask one's priest nor is he judging whats in individuals' heads from what I see. Fifth, we have seen two priests here essentially agree with Rus inasmuch as both admit that birth control normatively should be avoided as well as sex not for procreation.

So, why are we Orthodox supposedly "Agreeing" but speaking with such a tone of disagreement?

Actually, you're missing the point of my post.

gzt · May 5, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
most everyone on here has said that is a problem. contraception is wrong, divorce is wrong, same sex attraction is wrong.

You're being fairly sloppy here, quite loose with the term "wrong". Divorce is an event and unequivocally a sin. Same-sex attraction seems to be used rather sloppily as either a shorthand for the broad experience of such attraction or for a specific event of such attraction - but in the latter case that is merely a temptation rather than a sin. The contraception question again is being slightly loose in calling it wrong here.

ArmyMatt · May 5, 2019

gzt said:
You're being fairly sloppy here, quite loose with the term "wrong". Divorce is an event and unequivocally a sin. Same-sex attraction seems to be used rather sloppily as either a shorthand for the broad experience of such attraction or for a specific event of such attraction - but in the latter case that is merely a temptation rather than a sin. The contraception question again is being slightly loose in calling it wrong here.

perhaps you should ask what I mean when I say wrong rather than say I am being sloppy. some Fathers, when talking about sin or what is right or wrong, do use the term more broadly than you do, just like how some use the term exactly as you do.

gurneyhalleck1 · May 5, 2019

You had a point!? :sorry:

RobNJ said:
Actually, you're missing the point of my post.

gzt · May 5, 2019

It's just a kind of category mistake to put getting a divorce in the same category as experiencing attraction to people of the same gender.

abacabb3 · May 6, 2019

RobNJ said:
Actually, you're missing the point of my post.

i quoted the part i took issue with

ArmyMatt · May 6, 2019

gzt said:
It's just a kind of category mistake to put getting a divorce in the same category as experiencing attraction to people of the same gender.

I didn't equate the two. I just said both are wrong. not studying for a test when you know you should and cheating on a test are both wrong, but they are certainly not in the same category.

rusmeister · May 6, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
most everyone on here has said that is a problem. contraception is wrong, divorce is wrong, same sex attraction is wrong.

that has not been what I have taken issue with. there has been no psychoanalysis of you (from me). I only commented on your action of bringing up to US about what you see in your other parishioners. that is not something for us on a forum page to know.

not a single Father will say that the laity should bring up something like that.

I honestly don’t know why you think I am publicly airing the sins of others, or judging them personally before God, when I say that I don’t know what (many) of the people I stand near believe, and that a real problem exists of Orthodox Christians thinking these various things to be no big deal, not sin or brokenness at all, and perfectly normal things to do. I don’t think your warning appropriate to what I have been saying. It IS appropriate to gossip, or judging others in the Scriptural sense, but saying that wrong is wrong and that a lot of us now think wrong is right doesn’t fit that bill at all.

ArmyMatt · May 6, 2019

rusmeister said:
I honestly don’t know why you think I am publicly airing the sins of others, or judging them personally before God, when I say that I don’t know what (many) of the people I stand near believe, and that a real problem exists of Orthodox Christians thinking these various things to be no big deal, not sin or brokenness at all, and perfectly normal things to do. I don’t think your warning appropriate to what I have been saying. It IS appropriate to gossip, or judging others in the Scriptural sense, but saying that wrong is wrong and that a lot of us now think wrong is right doesn’t fit that bill at all.

I am not saying you are publicly airing the sins of others or saying their stance before God. what I am saying is that you coming on here and commenting that you don't know the faith of the person standing next to you (your words when this came up before this thread) is not spiritually healthy for you to be doing.

Kristos · May 6, 2019

Christ is risen! I just love saying that

I think discerning the difference between a right believing priest and one that believes as I do, would be a difficult thing. How many people think that they do not believe correctly?

Like Fr Hopko (of blessed memory) used to say, the Church is like the ark - full of animals and bit a smelly, but it saves. Even bishops make mistakes, but that doesn't thwart God's grace.

I would rather talk about what we should be doing as married men (opposed to should not). Love your wife like Christ loves the Church. How do we do that? Would it not be obvious to anyone trying to do this, that making her into an object of lust would be heading in the wrong direction? We talk about symptoms, but isn't the disease important as well?

Peace>

Andrei D · May 6, 2019

Lord have mercy, but the more I read this thread the more sympathetic to feminism I become. He who has ears etc.

abacabb3 · May 6, 2019

Andrei D said:
Lord have mercy, but the more I read this thread the more sympathetic to feminism I become. He who has ears etc.

I suppose the fathers have that effect on people...

MariaJLM · May 6, 2019

Andrei D said:
Lord have mercy, but the more I read this thread the more sympathetic to feminism I become. He who has ears etc.

Not all feminism is the man-hating radical feminism anyway. That's just one branch of feminism.

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