Can Calvinism reconcile God ordaining Adam to sin, and still allow Adam to have a free will?

Dr. Jack · May 5, 2019

His student said:
My post was not an argument. It was a statement.

No aspect of Calvinism is "used in compelling people to accept Jesus". In fact the WCF pointedly says that these doctrines should be handled with care.

I'm not sure anyone can understand what you are saying. Could you please restate your post?

Are you laughing at my joke saying that Adam didn't eat oats?

Or are you disputing that the Father's drawing to the Son those whom He gives to the Son is a form of coercion?

Or are you disputing that God's opening the eyes of Lydia was a form of coercion?

Or are you disputing that the Holy Spirit's allowing men to say Jesus is Lord is a form of coercion?

Where are you coming from? Your post makes no sense to me and I doubt it does to anyone else either.

I specifically used the salting of the oats to illustrate how (according to Calvinism) God coerced Adam into sinning.

You keep taking texts that Calvinism uses to support TULIP, and applying them to Adam prefall.

frogoon234 · May 5, 2019

i could be doing worse things like disobeying my Baptist preacher and drinking alcohol.

On a separate note a persons value at any given point in time is comprised of 100s of variables and each variable in the equation is weighted differently. Each variable would take a tremendous about of investigating to ascertain the value of that variable. I believe this notion is absolutely necessary for any forum topic unless that forum topic is what is the best flavor of ice cream.

Dave L · May 5, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
Are you saying God created Adam with a sinful rebellious nature that simply needed a law to break in order to be activated?

“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.” (James 1:13–14)

Dr. Jack · May 5, 2019

Dave L said:
“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: It is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” (Jeremiah 10:23)

“In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” (Ephesians 1:11)

“(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.” (Romans 5:13–15)

You do understand that all those verses deal with mankind with a sin nature.

None of those verses say anything about Adam wanting to sin, prior to having a sin nature.

His student · May 5, 2019

Jack -
Would it be too much to ask that you place all of your dialog to me in one post so I don't have to bounce around from page to page like a yo-yo?

I won't be combing through 5 separate posts from you each time any more.

Take note of how I do it below and try to do things that way. It's not that hard.

Thanks.

Dr. Jack said:
Since (according to the WCF God has already "ordained" whatsoever shall come to pass, and the sin of Adam came to pass, then God ordained Adam to sin. Since the choice of Adam was predetermined by God, Adam could NOT have had any "free choice". (That's a contradiction!)

As Ronald Reagan would say, "There you go again". God did not "ordain Adam to sin". He ordained that the choice made by Adam (which He knew would be sin) would take place. There is a world of difference in what is being said by me and the WCF and the straw man you present.

Dr. Jack said:
everything is predetermined, and must happen as predetermined, there is no choice. We are all acting out a prewritten script.

If by "predetermined" you mean scripted (and you obviously do in spite of the clear words of the WCF that God did not author sin) you are incorrect and it is a straw man argument.

"Pre-writing" a script is authoring the script - the very thing you are clearly told by us that God did not do. Capeesh?

Dr. Jack said:
If God predetermined everything, we are only actors in a script.

God predestines all that takes place. One of those things was Adams choice to sin.

Dr. Jack said:
You have reduced man to a character in a novel written by God.

The existence of mankind perhaps. But not the choices made by men who were given free will.

Dr. Jack said:
The Calvinistic God controlled the choice of Adam, condemning him, and his prosperity to damnation. But this isn't a fairytale; this is real.

No - the "Calvinistic God" is said to not have controled the choice made by Adam. That's a straw man and it was put to rest hundreds of years ago by the clear statements in the WCF as to the relationship of God to man vis-a-vis the will of the creature vs. the predestination of all things which occur.

Dr. Jack said:
The God of Calvinism condemns all of mankind by controlling one choice of Adam.

The "God of Calvinism did not control the choice of Adam. He did control the parameters in which that choice would be made - which choice God knew full well before there was an Adam.

Dr. Jack said:
The fact that God controlled the choice of Adam makes God responsible for Adam's choice. That is not a straw man, that is a fact.

Since you are the only one who says that God controlled the choice of Adam - it is indeed a straw man.

Dr. Jack said:
But God did (according to Calvinism) control Adam's will ... bringing upon Adam condemnation ... so how did that benefit Adam's prosperity?

You seem to believe your own misrepresentation of what Calvinists teach.

We've been through this before. If you won't discuss the issues without misrepresenting others we have nothing more to talk about.

Dr. Jack · May 5, 2019

Dave L said:
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.” (James 1:13–14)

But that contradicts what you stated earlier about God controlling Adam's choice to sin.

Only one of the following can be true:

1) God controlled Adam's choice to sin.
2) Adam controlled his own choice to sin.

So, is it 1, or 2?

His student · May 5, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
I specifically used the salting of the oats to illustrate how (according to Calvinism) God coerced Adam into sinning.

You keep taking texts that Calvinism uses to support TULIP, and applying them to Adam prefall.

There you go again.
I can't even answer your 5 previous posts without you adding another one while I'm writing.

God did not coerce Adam to sin. Calvinists are crystal clear about that. You've been corrected on that point dozens of times in other threads as well as in this one.

In what way have I taken texts that Calvinism uses to support TULIP and applied them to Adam pre-fall?

Dave L · May 5, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
But that contradicts what you stated earlier about God controlling Adam's choice to sin.

Only one of the following can be true:

1) God controlled Adam's choice to sin.
2) Adam controlled his own choice to sin.

So, is it 1, or 2?

God controls all sinners or he's not good.

Dave L · May 5, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
You do understand that all those verses deal with mankind with a sin nature.

None of those verses say anything about Adam wanting to sin, prior to having a sin nature.

You assume James doesn't apply to Adam. He was without sin until God gave him the law.

His student · May 5, 2019

frogoon234 said:
That is interesting the Westminster Confession of Faith says it should be handled with care. That makes me think more Calvinists should put a cautionary line in their speach when discussing the writings of Reformed Theologians instead of discussing whats in the Bible.

They are usually quite careful with these doctrines. They have no place in the proclamation of the gospel and they should not be discussed with new and immature Christians. I take it that you are mature enough since you voluntarily entered into a debate about those doctrine.

The writings of Reformed theologians are their take on what's in the Bible - just as your writings are yours.

frogoon234 said:
I believe there are problems with both Calvinism and Non Calvinist theologys.

You got that right. That's one of the reasons I dislike being labeled.

frogoon234 said:
On a separate note a persons value at any given point in time is comprised of 100s of variables and each variable in the equation is weighted differently. Each variable would take a tremendous about of investigating to ascertain the value of that variable.

Here again - I'm not exactly sure what you are saying.

But - if you are referring to what has been called the "butterfly effect" that is where God's actions come to play on His predestining of the free choices of men including those of Adam.

God clearly set the parameter related to Adam, the garden, the serpent, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - and He knew full well exactly what would happen if and when He did so.

But that is not the same as saying that God forced Adam to sin - which is the straw man argument being continually and dishonestly used by Dr. Jack to his shame.

frogoon234 · May 5, 2019

Dave L said:
God controls all sinners or he's not good.

There is a difference between being good and being powerful. Kim Jong Un is powerful. Jesus Christ is good and powerful but while Jesus (temporal or set amount of time) was on earth he suffered at the hands of his enemies. You could say a person who is in hell 10,000 years from now is predestined to be in hell 20,000 years from now and that would be biblical. But to say God at every point in time has to be in control in order to be good doesn't seem rational to me for whatever reason.

Dave L · May 5, 2019

frogoon234 said:
There is a difference between being good and being powerful. Kim Jong Un is powerful. Jesus Christ is good and powerful but while Jesus (temporal or set amount of time) was on earth he suffered at the hands of his enemies. You could say a person who is in hell 10,000 years from now is predestined to be in hell 20,000 years from now and that would be biblical. But to say God at every point in time has to be in control in order to be good doesn't seem rational to me for whatever reason.

OK, so God creates something that will be a disaster if he doesn't control it. Can he be good in this situation if he doesn't control it?

frogoon234 · May 5, 2019

Dave L said:
OK, so God creates something that will be a disaster if he doesn't control it. Can he be good in this situation if he doesn't control it?

Suffering in hell for an eternity is a disaster. What else is there to say to that. Suffering is suffering. If a person willfully rejects Jesus's sacrifice on the cross i believe eternal suffering in hell is warranted (at God's discretion). If Calvinism is a reality i don't see why the glory seeking God wouldn't just keep his glory and use his lawyer skills and find a way to just wipe these people in hell out of existence.

Dave L · May 5, 2019

frogoon234 said:
Suffering in hell for an eternity is a disaster. What else is there to say to that. Suffering is suffering. If a person willfully rejects Jesus's sacrifice on the cross i believe eternal suffering in hell is warranted (at God's discretion). If Calvinism is a reality i don't see why the glory seeking God wouldn't just keep his glory and use his lawyer skills and find a way to just wipe these people in hell out of existence.

It's about his glory. Once you grasp that, it all makes sense.

frogoon234 · May 5, 2019

there are Christian churches that believe that those in hell are eventually wiped out of existence.

frogoon234 · May 5, 2019

Dave L said:
It's about his glory. Once you grasp that, it all makes sense.

I think me and you measure what is glorious differently. I believe we are both christians but as i said before and i believe this is pertinent to every online forum:

On a separate note a persons value at any given point in time is comprised of 100s of variables and each variable in the equation is weighted differently. Each variable would take a tremendous about of investigating to ascertain the value of that variable. I believe this notion is absolutely necessary for any forum topic unless that forum topic is what is the best flavor of ice cream.

Dave L · May 5, 2019

frogoon234 said:
there are Christian churches that believe that those in hell are eventually wiped out of existence.

But these are off the hook without any payment for their sins. God is not good if they do not suffer forever for sins of an infinite magnitude.

Dave L · May 5, 2019

frogoon234 said:
I think me and you measure what is glorious differently. I believe we are both christians but as i said before and i believe this is pertinent to every online forum:

On a separate note a persons value at any given point in time is comprised of 100s of variables and each variable in the equation is weighted differently. Each variable would take a tremendous about of investigating to ascertain the value of that variable. I believe this notion is absolutely necessary for any forum topic unless that forum topic is what is the best flavor of ice cream.

Use the bible Luke, let it guide you.....

Dr. Jack · May 5, 2019

His student said:
Jack -
Would it be too much to ask that you place all of your dialog to me in one post so I don't have to bounce around from page to page like a yo-yo?

I won't be combing through 5 separate posts from you each time any more.

Take note of how I do it below and try to do things that way. It's not that hard.

Thanks.
As Ronald Reagan would say, "There you go again". God did not "ordain Adam to sin". He ordained that the choice made by Adam (which He knew would be sin) would take place. There is a world of difference in what is being said by me and the WCF and the straw man you present.

If by "predetermined" you mean scripted (and you obviously do in spite of the clear words of the WCF that God did not author sin) you are incorrect and it is a straw man argument.

"Pre-writing" a script is authoring the script - the very thing you are clearly told by us that God did not do. Capeesh?

God predestines all that takes place. One of those things was Adams choice to sin.

The existence of mankind perhaps. But not the choices made by men who were given free will.

No - the "Calvinistic God" is said to not have controled the choice made by Adam. That's a straw man and it was put to rest hundreds of years ago by the clear statements in the WCF as to the relationship of God to man vis-a-vis the will of the creature vs. the predestination of all things which occur.
The "God of Calvinism did not control the choice of Adam. He did control the parameters in which that choice would be made - which choice God knew full well before there was an Adam.

Since you are the only one who says that God controlled the choice of Adam - it is indeed a straw man.

You seem to believe your own misrepresentation of what Calvinists teach.

We've been through this before. If you won't discuss the issues without misrepresenting others we have nothing more to talk about.

According to the WCF, God ordained the "whatsoever shall come to pass".

Twist it any way you want, the Chapter is titled, "Of God's Eternal Decree". That means "whatsoever shall come to pass" was decreed by God. Adam sinned, it was therefore decreed by God.

frogoon234 · May 5, 2019

Dave L said:
Use the bible Luke, let it guide you.....

lol. I'll be dead someday but atleast i'm not drinking alcohol today.

Can Calvinism reconcile God ordaining Adam to sin, and still allow Adam to have a free will?

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