Can Calvinism reconcile God ordaining Adam to sin, and still allow Adam to have a free will?

His student · May 5, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
Because God not only had foreknowledge of the sin of Adam, but also predetermined the outcome of Adam's choice, any and all "reasons" God "provided" which aided in the decision making process must be considered as coercion.

No so.

God predetermined that Adam's choice would indeed occur just as God knew it would if He acted in certain ways.

It is only coercion in your eyes. Obviously the WCF and millions of believers (such as myself) who agree with it's clear statements on the matter do not.

Your proposition is therefore a straw man of your own making.

Dr. Jack said:
Yes, Adam made a choice, but that choice was was caused by circumstances deliberately placed in Adam's timeline to bring about a particular result; which as the WCF clearly states was predetermined by God. Hence, Adam effectively had no actual choice at all.

You were correct up until the last sentence. The WCF and I clearly disagree. We say that no violence was done to the free will of Adam. This - in spite of the fact that the event as well as every other event that occurs in history was predestined to occur.

Dr. Jack said:
It was neither God's purpose to make Adam sin, nor to keep Adam from sinning ... it was His purpose to allow Adam to reason using the information provided by 1) Himself; and 2) any other source. While God had foreknowledge of Adam's choice, His knowledge was not causative in any way ...

Exactly so - just as the WCF and I have said all along. Only your straw man says different.

Dr. Jack said:
... that is the difference between indeterminate foreknowledge and determinate foreknowledge.

Since absolutely nothing in the creation has existence outside of the Word of God - all foreknowledge concerning the creation is determinate. To say otherwise is to create a God other than the omniscient, omnipresent, providentially involved creator and sustainer of all things - which God is the God of the scriptures.

Dr. Jack · May 5, 2019

Hammster said:
If He had a plan, then in order for the plan to work Adam needed to sin.

This is where the philosophical arguments begin.

First, What was God's plan? (Do you know?)

Second, You need to be able to separate Indeterminate foreknowledge from determinate foreknowledge, and see how the two interact with God's plan.

But since you believe "Adam needed to sin", you also believe God is then justified by whatever means, take the situation to the needed end.

His student · May 5, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
The owner of the horse coerces the horse into drinking water to the benefit of the horse.

According to Reformed doctrine - God does exactly that when it comes to His elect from among fallen mankind.

He did not salt Adams oats. So far as we know - Adam didn't eat oats - which are quite likely a cultured plant from the activities of of men after the fall.

frogoon234 · May 5, 2019

His student said:
According to Reformed doctrine - God does exactly that when it comes to His elect from among fallen mankind.

He did not salt Adams oats. So far as we know - Adam didn't eat oats - which are quite likely a cultured plant from the activities of of men after the fall.

lol. Its arguments like this that make a person want to reject Calvinism. It should be stated as it was stated earlier that many aspects of Calvinism should not be used in compeling people to accept Jesus.

frogoon234 · May 5, 2019

Paul was good at compelling people to come to Jesus and i believe we should follow Jesus's commands in compeling people to come to Jesus. A common theme in the old testament was that the old testament church should through their actions compel others to come to the God of Israel.

Dr. Jack · May 5, 2019

Hammster said:
You have just limited what God can do. I’m not sure if that was your intent, but it was certainly the result.

You may not realize what you just said, but let me explain it to you.

Oscarr said: ↑
"because any kind of inner work of the Holy Spirit in a sinner is impossible until they choose for Christ"

Calvinism teaches that because (according to them), man is a dichotomous being, God cannot work in the unregenerate man until He regenerates them. However, because God created man as a trichotomous being, God can work through the spirit of man, whether his soul has been regenerated or not.

Calvinism also limits the power of God to only deal with a man after He has regenerated them. But that is for a different thread ... just saying.

Dr. Jack · May 5, 2019

Oscarr said:
For years I argued that God did not know the future and that He among everyone else was dependent on the choices we made, because we create the future through our choices. Then just the other day I read 1 Peter 1:1-2 and God's foreknowledge hit me between the eyes! It turned me right around because I had to believe that God really does know the future! As you know, I don't concede very easily in my opinionated views, so for one simple verse to blow up an opinion I would not give up for anyone, has to be significant!

God knows the future, but does not control the choices of people. But He does influence the future where in the books of the Prophets He has specifically spoken about what is going to happen. This is because He has planned it and has intervened in world events to ensure that the prophecies He has given through His prophets came to pass. But in all these, He has never controlled the free choice of anyone.

This is why I know that He set up the plan of salvation before the foundation of the world. He knew man was going to sin and that the plan was necessary. He did not make man sin to make the plan possible. It was His foreknowledge of what was going to happen. He didn't make it happen.

Now that the HS has shown you this great truth, I would love to share what the plan of God has always been ... the pieces just begin to fall together.

Dr. Jack · May 5, 2019

Dave L said:
Only if the goat is sinful and deserves it.

So the kid dangles the ignorant goat into following the carrot, and that makes the goat guilty of sin?

Dr. Jack · May 5, 2019

Hammster said:
Let’s start with this.

The mind of man plans his way,
But the Lord directs his steps.
— Proverbs 16:9

The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord;
He turns it wherever He wishes.
— Proverbs 21:1

Get good rest, brother. We can pick this up later. I need to get the family up for church anyway.

I keep telling you, this thread isn't about post fall, it's about prefall.

Dr. Jack · May 5, 2019

Dave L said:
Think of it this way. If you choose good you rob God of his glory. If God causes you to choose good, he gets the glory and you stay where you belong in the pecking order.

“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: It is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” (Jeremiah 10:23)

But we need to reconcile how God predetermined Adam to sin, yet holds Adam responsible for making a choice that God controlled.

Dave L · May 5, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
But we need to reconcile how God predetermined Adam to sin, yet holds Adam responsible for making a choice that God controlled.

Adam wanted to sin and freely chose to sin based on the reasons God gave him to base his choices on.

Dave L · May 5, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
So the kid dangles the ignorant goat into following the carrot, and that makes the goat guilty of sin?

If it has a sinful nature.

Dave L · May 5, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
There is an old saying ...

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

The answer to that saying is ...

But you can salt the oats.

By salting the oats, the owner of the horse knows that even though the horse has NO desire to drink water, he can change the will of the horse by salting its oats.

When the owner salts the oats, the horse becomes thirsty. The owner uses his knowledge of the horse to coerce the horse into changing its will concerning drinking water.

You have stated that God "controlled" Adam's will in the same manner.

Now here is the bad part:

The owner of the horse coerces the horse into drinking water to the benefit of the horse. God controlled Adam to not only the detriment of Adam's soul, but to the detriment of every single soul of his posterity.

God created Adam sinless. But with a nature that would want to sin if given a law. When God spoke the Law, Adam wanted to sin and did so incurring the guilt.

Dr. Jack · May 5, 2019

His student said:
No one believes or teaches that questioning the mystery of predestination brings forth the very wrath, and judgment of God.

What the WCF does indicate is that statements concerning these weightier doctrines have no place in the proclamation of the gospel or in the milk that is to be fed to very new believers. It may cause someone to stumble because of the difficulty of understanding such things - and it does, as we see here all the time.

I don't see people hiding from the questions generated by the doctrine of predestination vs. "free" will. I see it being tackled head on gladly by those who subscribe to Reformed theology.

The doctrines of grace are not in the realm of apologetics. They are in the realm of soteriology.

It's all in how you phrase things. It can be a red herring or it can be an honest question.

When you say, "decreed by God to sin" - you say it as if God made the decision to sin for Adam. That is not the teaching of the WCF.

The teaching of the WCF is that God decreed that the sin of Adam take place just as Adam chose to sin - without God authoring that sin or forcing in any way Adam to choose sin.

God's predestination of an event's occurrence does not mean that He Himself makes the choices which bring that occurrence to pass and then forces those choices on men.

As a for instance - God predestines the length of all of our days on earth. He also gives us free will. My neighbor was predestined to live 47 years. But that does not in any way negate the fact that my neighbor chose to drink and drive - which ended his life.

Or - God predestined that Jesus Christ would die for the sins of the world via a Roman cross. Evil men made the choice to crucify Him and they will likely answer for it since God did not force them to kill Him.

According to what the WCF clearly states - God uses means to bring to pass what He has predestined to occur. In these examples, the free choices of men are those means.

Those ideas aren't that hard to understand and no Reformed student of the scriptures shies away from explaining them to those who are mature enough to digest them.

I have found that many who profess difficulty with the doctrine of predestination do so because of an animosity toward other Reformed doctrines such as election and not because predestination itself is that difficult to understand.

Subscribing to the doctrine of omniscience demands that one also believes in the doctrine of the predestination of all that occurs in God's creation.

That would be true even if God had not used the word in the scriptures. It is also true regardless of what one thinks is being predestined in the particular examples of predestination we have in the scriptures.

Let's cut to the chase:

You stated:
1)

According to what the WCF clearly states - God uses means to bring to pass what He has predestined to occur. In these examples, the free choices of men are those means.

Since (according to the WCF God has already "ordained" whatsoever shall come to pass, and the sin of Adam came to pass, then God ordained Adam to sin. Since the choice of Adam was predetermined by God, Adam could NOT have had any "free choice".
(That's a contradiction!)

2)

Subscribing to the doctrine of omniscience demands that one also believes in the doctrine of the predestination of all that occurs in God's creation.

No, it demands NO SUCH THING!

What you have just stated is known as FATALISM.

If everything is predetermined, and must happen as predetermined, there is no choice. We are all acting out a prewritten script.

Dr. Jack · May 5, 2019

Dave L said:
He did not give God the glory, just as free will does not.

Let's apply this to Adam ...

Please describe why, and how Adam chose to sin, having a neutral nature. And how this relates to the glory of God.

Dave L · May 5, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
Let's apply this to Adam ...

Please describe why, and how Adam chose to sin, having a neutral nature. And how this relates to the glory of God.

Who said Adam had a nature that would not want to sin if given a law? Which is exactly what he did.

Dr. Jack · May 5, 2019

ICONO'CLAST said:
In post 42 I quoted where you did say that exact thing ,you posted remember, then under point 1 you said God ordained Adam to sin prior to creation.
Did you mean to post something else?

That is what the WCF states, not what I say. That is why I often use the term, "According to Calvinism".

I most definitely do NOT believe that God ordained any of Adam's choices.

Dr. Jack · May 5, 2019

Hammster said:
It wasn’t a false assumption. I asked in another thread if there was anything random. You said there was.

You don’t think God was in control of Adam’s decision. That’s what you believe.

God doesn't have to control every choice to be in control of the entire event.

Placing an infant in a playpen doesn't mean you are not in control of the infant. I did not need to control exactly where each hand of my children landed inside the playpen to be in control, I only had to provide particular parameters that limited how far they could safety travel.

Yes, God allowed Adam to sin, but God also had a plan of Redemption in motion because of His omniscience. Hence, God could give Adam the freedom to choose, without determining the outcome, yet being in control, and ready to provide for that outcome.

Dr. Jack · May 5, 2019

Dave L said:
Free will saves and gets the glory. Only your goodness and modesty will say God did it instead.

If you would like to discuss free will and salvation; I would be glad to ... in another thread. This thread is to discuss how you reconcile Adam chose to sin by choice, when according to Calvinism God had already determined he would sin.

Dr. Jack · May 5, 2019

Dave L said:
If it has a sinful nature.

Adam didn't have a sin nature prior to the fall.

Can Calvinism reconcile God ordaining Adam to sin, and still allow Adam to have a free will?

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