Natural Family Planning & Number of Children

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,394
5,011
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟432,491.00
Country
Montenegro
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I guess the thing that dismays me is that people in the Church can believe whatever they want, and the only authority to correct them is whatever authority they choose to accept. I don't accept the authority of just any priest, but I do accept a clear consensus of the fathers, and when that is backed up by a clear consensus of nearly all Christians across history (until 1930), it seems pretty cut-and-dried to me. It's NOT "academic" (sorry, Rob!); unless all articulation of Church understanding and teaching is "academic".

What I see now is a drastic change in attitude from then to now, and now I see us as out-of-sync with the ancient Church, and not just on contraception (as I said, I think divorce an even more serious and scandalous issue, which we have made normative).

So I have no idea what the people standing next to me in church really believe. I see very little of any common mind and heart, and very little connection to what the ancient Christians believed and taught in the very place where I'm supposed to see and get that the most clearly. The change in teaching on contraception is just a smaller symptom of that larger malaise.
 
  • Like
Reactions: abacabb3
Upvote 0

RobNJ

So Long, And Thanks For All The Fish!
Aug 22, 2004
12,074
3,310
✟166,532.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
STOTS is more like Holy Trinity with the Monastery and having a bishop as rector, though.

Never been to any of them, but since Yonkers is 10-12 miles away, as the crow flies.. or 30 miles away as the car drives, I tend to think of SVOTS, first
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,468
20,025
41
Earth
✟1,455,670.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I guess the thing that dismays me is that people in the Church can believe whatever they want, and the only authority to correct them is whatever authority they choose to accept. I don't accept the authority of just any priest, but I do accept a clear consensus of the fathers, and when that is backed up by a clear consensus of nearly all Christians across history (until 1930), it seems pretty cut-and-dried to me. It's NOT "academic" (sorry, Rob!); unless all articulation of Church understanding and teaching is "academic".

What I see now is a drastic change in attitude from then to now, and now I see us as out-of-sync with the ancient Church, and not just on contraception (as I said, I think divorce an even more serious and scandalous issue, which we have made normative).

So I have no idea what the people standing next to me in church really believe. I see very little of any common mind and heart, and very little connection to what the ancient Christians believed and taught in the very place where I'm supposed to see and get that the most clearly. The change in teaching on contraception is just a smaller symptom of that larger malaise.

well, you are correct to not just follow ANY priest (many heretics were clergy), but a correctly believing priest. that is on you to find to submit to.

as for your last paragraph, if you are looking at others that much, you should stop. like now. and point that gaze inward. you really should not be telling US on here that about those other parishioners.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

MariaJLM

Crazy Cat Lady
Aug 1, 2018
1,117
1,475
33
Calgary
✟50,815.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
CA-Others
as for your last paragraph, if you are looking at others that much, you should stop. like now. and point that gaze inward. you really should not be telling US that.

This is spot on. I know of an active gay guy who is Orthodox and claims to take communion in his church. However, I don't worry about it much because 1) he's not in my parish(or even in my country), 2) I'm more worried about my own salvation.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,468
20,025
41
Earth
✟1,455,670.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
This is spot on. I know of an active gay guy who is Orthodox and claims to take communion in his church. However, I don't worry about it much because 1) he's not in my parish(or even in my country), 2) I'm more worried about my own salvation.

that, and the kicker is you cannot see into his heart. so while you can see the sin and are right to point out the error, you cannot see the repentance.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: MariaJLM
Upvote 0

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,394
5,011
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟432,491.00
Country
Montenegro
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
well, you are correct to not just follow ANY priest (many heretics were clergy), but a correctly believing priest. that is on you to find to submit to.

as for your last paragraph, if you are looking at others that much, you should stop. like now. and point that gaze inward. you really should not be telling US on here that about those other parishioners.

I am NOT telling you anything about the parishioners, except that I don’t know WHAT they believe and feel that I can only count on occasional and accidental coincidence of moral views. And this is the line I think you are mistaking ME on: that between my sins vs other people’s sins (on which you are absolutely right, and I agree, as I agree on following correctly believing priests) and being able to say that a given action is amartia. I am saying the latter, and you more than once have taken it for the former. I am SUPPOSED to think myself the chief of sinners. But a murderer still ought to be able to say that stealing is wrong, and when some priests start saying that it’s OK, some, under certain circumstances and others, that there is nothing at all wrong with the action, then the murderer should speak up, conscious of his own guilt and need for repentance for a greater sin.

I’m saying that it’s a tragedy, and an avoidable one, that we have so much divergence of belief in what is amartia and what isn’t, passing under the command that “everyone mind their own business”, something I find some contradiction to in Scripture itself.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,468
20,025
41
Earth
✟1,455,670.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I am NOT telling you anything about the parishioners, except that I don’t know WHAT they believe and feel that I can only count on occasional and accidental coincidence of moral views. And this is the line I think you are mistaking ME on: that between my sins vs other people’s sins (on which you are absolutely right, and I agree, as I agree on following correctly believing priests) and being able to say that a given action is amartia. I am saying the latter, and you more than once have taken it for the former. I am SUPPOSED to think myself the chief of sinners. But a murderer still ought to be able to say that stealing is wrong, and when some priests start saying that it’s OK, some, under certain circumstances and others, that there is nothing at all wrong with the action, then the murderer should speak up, conscious of his own guilt and need for repentance for a greater sin.

I’m saying that it’s a tragedy, and an avoidable one, that we have so much divergence of belief in what is amartia and what isn’t, passing under the command that “everyone mind their own business”, something I find some contradiction to in Scripture itself.

no, you mistake what I am saying rus. I am not saying you should be silent when it comes to others sins. what I am saying is if the murderer sees the thief stealing, he should go to the thief or to people who can actually get the thief on the right and narrow.

simply pointing out to us that you don't know what others believe and you only feel occasional moral coincidence with others isn't good to do.

it'd be one thing if you asked for prayers or advice or whatever. but that's not what happens.

intentional or not, you do often sound like a lone (admittedly struggling) Orthodox island surrounded by error and lukewarmness and etc. it comes across like you analyze everyone around you in addition to you. THAT is what needs to stop.

and, you'll notice, no one else on here does that unless asking for prayers or advice on how to deal with it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,452
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
you'll notice, no one else on here does that unless asking for prayers or advice on how to deal with it.

For what it's worth (forgive me, I've really been sick since Pascha and very disappointed to wake up today and realize it's unwise to drive to Church :( and I'm not doing a good job of putting thoughts in order either ... )

I have been thinking of what Rus is saying. I could at one time identify with being a little upset by some of what I was seeing and hearing around me. It's not right that I should give details, but there were instances related to what I perceived as differing standards on such matters as divorce, same-sex attraction, fidelity within marriage, and sexual activity outside marriage.

Some things were said to me directly, some I accidentally overheard or were spread on FB, and so on. As a convert, it was a bit difficult for me to discover that people within the Orthodox Church could be just as affected by such things as people inside other fellowships or outside Christianity altogether (though to be fair, it generally did NOT look anything like what I've seen in some anti-Christian groups).

What was I going to say in this post? I probably SHOULD have asked for prayers and advice here. I suppose I worked through it from reading books, podcasts, and everything else God brought to me and how it all fitted together. I was probably largely distracted with my health issues soon after.

But I remember feeling like what you seem to be describing, Rus.

And there was also someone in the parish who was pretty consistent in saying things to me that were unhelpful (gossip largely but other things too) and when I confessed my thoughts as a result (Father really knew the whole dynamic I'm pretty sure though I didn't name names or say anything too clearly) ... he actually asked me to say certain things to that person to kind of calm the situation. THAT was a learning experience that has spanned years now - I have come to understand someone else's challenges in a certain way, this person HAS changed for the better in some ways, and I've also come to appreciate very much what is good in them. It has taught me to see myself as much less than them, a greater sinner, a lesser Christian, and ... well, it's taught me more than I can explain, and greatly increased my love for that person.

As for the others, maybe that experience has helped with them. I also seem to be the sort of person people like to confide in with their struggles. I've heard the stories behind the behavior in some cases, and learned that perhaps I could not have endured as much as they did, so I no longer can think badly of them for their actions or attitudes. I fear I could have done much worse in the same situation. I've also in some cases learned that what I assumed that seemed the clear implication wasn't exactly so, and some people have extremes in their circumstances in order to avoid what sin I thought they were embracing.

Ugh. This is starting to sound like how much I've learned or how great I am. To me at least. I'm sorry if it does to anyone else (I think it might). What I only meant to say at first is that I could identify with your struggle, Rus. It was hard for me, but with you living in a foreign country it must be exponentially harder. And I guess I wanted too to offer some of what has helped me, but that is only by the grace of God and I'm not sure it can sound helpful. I'm not good at this I'm afraid.

Sorry. I'm debating if it's better to send this in case it helps at all, or wait to decide and risk the whole thing going *poof* ... and I know I won't re-type it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rusmeister
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,468
20,025
41
Earth
✟1,455,670.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
For what it's worth (forgive me, I've really been sick since Pascha and very disappointed to wake up today and realize it's unwise to drive to Church :( and I'm not doing a good job of putting thoughts in order either ... )

I have been thinking of what Rus is saying. I could at one time identify with being a little upset by some of what I was seeing and hearing around me. It's not right that I should give details, but there were instances related to what I perceived as differing standards on such matters as divorce, same-sex attraction, fidelity within marriage, and sexual activity outside marriage.

Some things were said to me directly, some I accidentally overheard or were spread on FB, and so on. As a convert, it was a bit difficult for me to discover that people within the Orthodox Church could be just as affected by such things as people inside other fellowships or outside Christianity altogether (though to be fair, it generally did NOT look anything like what I've seen in some anti-Christian groups).

What was I going to say in this post? I probably SHOULD have asked for prayers and advice here. I suppose I worked through it from reading books, podcasts, and everything else God brought to me and how it all fitted together. I was probably largely distracted with my health issues soon after.

But I remember feeling like what you seem to be describing, Rus.

And there was also someone in the parish who was pretty consistent in saying things to me that were unhelpful (gossip largely but other things too) and when I confessed my thoughts as a result (Father really knew the whole dynamic I'm pretty sure though I didn't name names or say anything too clearly) ... he actually asked me to say certain things to that person to kind of calm the situation. THAT was a learning experience that has spanned years now - I have come to understand someone else's challenges in a certain way, this person HAS changed for the better in some ways, and I've also come to appreciate very much what is good in them. It has taught me to see myself as much less than them, a greater sinner, a lesser Christian, and ... well, it's taught me more than I can explain, and greatly increased my love for that person.

As for the others, maybe that experience has helped with them. I also seem to be the sort of person people like to confide in with their struggles. I've heard the stories behind the behavior in some cases, and learned that perhaps I could not have endured as much as they did, so I no longer can think badly of them for their actions or attitudes. I fear I could have done much worse in the same situation. I've also in some cases learned that what I assumed that seemed the clear implication wasn't exactly so, and some people have extremes in their circumstances in order to avoid what sin I thought they were embracing.

Ugh. This is starting to sound like how much I've learned or how great I am. To me at least. I'm sorry if it does to anyone else (I think it might). What I only meant to say at first is that I could identify with your struggle, Rus. It was hard for me, but with you living in a foreign country it must be exponentially harder. And I guess I wanted too to offer some of what has helped me, but that is only by the grace of God and I'm not sure it can sound helpful. I'm not good at this I'm afraid.

Sorry. I'm debating if it's better to send this in case it helps at all, or wait to decide and risk the whole thing going *poof* ... and I know I won't re-type it.

oh I have seen it myself for the sake of full disclosure. I don't dispute what he has seen as a legit problem. I agree with his concerns 100%. I disagree with how this issue is being addressed, not in what is being addressed.

bringing up here that you have no idea who believes what in your Church, and saying that agreements have only seemed to come by coincidence is NOT spiritually healthy.
 
Upvote 0

abacabb3

Newbie
Jul 14, 2013
3,208
555
✟73,913.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
well, you are correct to not just follow ANY priest (many heretics were clergy), but a correctly believing priest. that is on you to find to submit to.

as for your last paragraph, if you are looking at others that much, you should stop. like now. and point that gaze inward. you really should not be telling US on here that about those other parishioners.
THere's a problem with this logic, it's Protestant. i.e. find a church where the pastor agrees with you.

Rus is bringing up a good point, there are some simple issues where we should be able to have a general consensus about without apologies.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,468
20,025
41
Earth
✟1,455,670.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
THere's a problem with this logic, it's Protestant. i.e. find a church where the pastor agrees with you.

Rus is bringing up a good point, there are some simple issues where we should be able to have a general consensus about without apologies.

no, it's not that. I didn't say that. finding a correctly believing priest is not the same as finding one who agrees with you.

rus' adherence to the consensus is not the issue. I agree with him on that, and have said that from the beginning.
 
  • Like
Reactions: abacabb3
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RobNJ

So Long, And Thanks For All The Fish!
Aug 22, 2004
12,074
3,310
✟166,532.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
THere's a problem with this logic, it's Protestant. i.e. find a church where the pastor agrees with you.

Rus is bringing up a good point, there are some simple issues where we should be able to have a general consensus about without apologies.

Unfortunately, Rus' apparent assumption that he has a more accurate grasp of the Fathers, than the Priests, and Bishops, sounds more protestant (Like a variation of the non-denom, fundie "me & MY bible" ), than Father Matt's posts, in this thread
 
Upvote 0