Can Calvinism reconcile God ordaining Adam to sin, and still allow Adam to have a free will?

Hammster

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If you can and where it states clearly and does not have to be "shoe-horned" into anything.

However. I'm off to bed. I got so involved I didn't realise it is now midnight here in upsidedown land. I'll continue in the morning.

I think that the whole issue is very simple:
It is either election before the choice for Christ -
or election after the choice for Christ.
It boils right down to which side of the fence we are on.
Let’s start with this.

The mind of man plans his way,
But the Lord directs his steps.
— Proverbs 16:9

The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord;
He turns it wherever He wishes.
— Proverbs 21:1

Get good rest, brother. We can pick this up later. I need to get the family up for church anyway. :)
 
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frogoon234

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It only explains that God controls people by the reasons he created for them to base their choices on. They choose what they want according to the reasons he subjects them to.

Thats fair. I just think predestination in some cases is used to justify bad behavior. John Calvin (he did have severe flaws) was not as polarized towards predestination as some think. John Calvin believed enough in results that he opened a watch making factory.
 
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Dave L

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Thats fair. I just think predestination in some cases is used to justify bad behavior. John Calvin (he did have severe flaws) was not as polarized towards predestination as some think. John Calvin believed enough in results that he opened a watch making factory.
Think of it this way. If you choose good you rob God of his glory. If God causes you to choose good, he gets the glory and you stay where you belong in the pecking order.

“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: It is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” (Jeremiah 10:23)
 
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frogoon234

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Think of it this way. If you choose good you rob God of his glory. If God causes you to choose good, he gets the glory and you stay where you belong in the pecking order.

“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: It is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” (Jeremiah 10:23)

Some people suffer tremendously. If you work a job and you spend some of your earnings on good food and good stuff are you robbing God of glory? No ofcourse not. Being polarized in your views of suffering doesn't help anybody. Jesus knows many people suffer tremendously and the church should not just write off their suffering because a pastor in an ivory tower possibly misinterpreted scripture. When we cast our crowns before Jesus Christ it is something we might only have to do at one point in time and not necessarily continually. Life is very complex and people are at their best when they are humble but occasional pride is better sometimes than the alternatives. I would argue having a little pride at any given time is benificial to the christian.
 
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His student

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"The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care" as though any questioning of this "mystery" brings forth the very wrath, and judgment of God.
No one believes or teaches that questioning the mystery of predestination brings forth the very wrath, and judgment of God.

What the WCF does indicate is that statements concerning these weightier doctrines have no place in the proclamation of the gospel or in the milk that is to be fed to very new believers. It may cause someone to stumble because of the difficulty of understanding such things - and it does, as we see here all the time.
It is not enough to simply state a doctrinal position and then hide under the supposed umbrella of the questioning the sovereignty of God to escape the responsibility of defining ones position.
I don't see people hiding from the questions generated by the doctrine of predestination vs. "free" will. I see it being tackled head on gladly by those who subscribe to Reformed theology.
Each of us must be able to stand on sound doctrine, and be ready to give an answer when we enter the arena of apologetics.
The doctrines of grace are not in the realm of apologetics. They are in the realm of soteriology.
My challenge to those who subscribe to Reformed Theology is to explain how Adam was able to chose sin, (or not to sin), if he was already decreed by God to sin.
It's all in how you phrase things. It can be a red herring or it can be an honest question.

When you say, "decreed by God to sin" - you say it as if God made the decision to sin for Adam. That is not the teaching of the WCF.

The teaching of the WCF is that God decreed that the sin of Adam take place just as Adam chose to sin - without God authoring that sin or forcing in any way Adam to choose sin.

God's predestination of an event's occurrence does not mean that He Himself makes the choices which bring that occurrence to pass and then forces those choices on men.

As a for instance - God predestines the length of all of our days on earth. He also gives us free will. My neighbor was predestined to live 47 years. But that does not in any way negate the fact that my neighbor chose to drink and drive - which ended his life.

Or - God predestined that Jesus Christ would die for the sins of the world via a Roman cross. Evil men made the choice to crucify Him and they will likely answer for it since God did not force them to kill Him.

According to what the WCF clearly states - God uses means to bring to pass what He has predestined to occur. In these examples, the free choices of men are those means.

Those ideas aren't that hard to understand and no Reformed student of the scriptures shies away from explaining them to those who are mature enough to digest them.

I have found that many who profess difficulty with the doctrine of predestination do so because of an animosity toward other Reformed doctrines such as election and not because predestination itself is that difficult to understand.

Subscribing to the doctrine of omniscience demands that one also believes in the doctrine of the predestination of all that occurs in God's creation.

That would be true even if God had not used the word in the scriptures. It is also true regardless of what one thinks is being predestined in the particular examples of predestination we have in the scriptures.
 
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Dave L

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Some people suffer tremendously. If you work a job and you spend some of your earnings on good food and good stuff are you robbing God of glory? No ofcourse not. Being polarized in your views of suffering doesn't help anybody. Jesus knows many people suffer tremendously and the church should not just write off their suffering because a pastor in an ivory tower possibly misinterpreted scripture. When we cast our crowns before Jesus Christ it is something we might only have to do at one point in time and not necessarily continually. Life is very complex and people are at their best when they are humble but occasional pride is better sometimes than the alternatives. I would argue having a little pride at any given time is benificial to the christian.
Why was Herod eaten of worms?
 
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frogoon234

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Why was Herod eaten of worms?

Because of his pride. Sin is a spectrum. I'm not in jail right now because i didn't commit certain types of crimes. Do i belong in jail? Possibly. Try to convince a judge i belong in jail if you like. I would imagine you are not in jail right now. Pride is also a spectrum.
 
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Dave L

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Because of his pride. Sin is a spectrum. I'm not in jail right now because i didn't commit certain types of crimes. Do i belong in jail? Possibly. Try to convince a judge i belong in jail if you like. I would imagine you are not in jail right now. Pride is also a spectrum.
He did not give God the glory, just as free will does not.
 
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frogoon234

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He did not give God the glory, just as free will does not.

"He did not give God the glory": true (pride)

Free will is far more appealing as giving God the glory than calling everyone a robot. One of the central themes in the old testament was that the old testament church was supposed to draw people outside the old testament church towards the old testament church and to the God of Israel. Most people i know are turned off by an over emphasis on predestination. I would be fully happy not to strive to do a good job at work tommorow and just let the money arrive in my mail box every 2 weeks. I never understand how someone who overemphasizes predestination can be so adamantly against socialism. I myself am not a socialist. Our beliefs very often have an effect on our actions and also on our neighbors.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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I don't think you are getting the point.


I never said I believe God ordained Adam to sin ... The WCF states that (as presented in the OP) ... that is Reformed Theology.

That is why it needs to be reconciled.
In post 42 I quoted where you did say that exact thing ,you posted remember, then under point 1 you said God ordained Adam to sin prior to creation.
Did you mean to post something else?
 
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Dr. Jack

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The problem is that you are convinced that God is NOT in control of all things. And you think you have scripture that shows that there are things that happen outside of God’s control. Because of that, there’s no amount of argumentation that will convince you otherwise.
1) No, I do NOT believe that God is NOT in control OF HIS CREATION.
2) The problem is in how we define the sovereignty of God. I believe that because God is omniscient, He has perfect foreknowledge (without having to determine what happens), and thereby is still very much in control.

E.g. God could KNOW Adam was going to choose to sin (by his own choice ... without being decreed, ordained, or predetermined to do so by God); and therefore, (based upon His own foreknowledge), He also was fully prepared to respond to Adam's sin.
Meaning ... God was still in control.

Please, do not assume you think you know what I believe, and then make false assertions based upon those assumptions.
 
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Dr. Jack

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I did not say free will. I said free choice. A person can freely choose for Christ or reject Him. Either choice has consequences, as you know, because I would be surprised if you didn't read your Bible on a regular basis. But libertarian free will is making one's own decisions without having any consequences arising out of them - or so that person believes. Libertarian free choice says, "anything goes, no consequences."
Please allow me to make a correction to your definition of "libertarian" free will.

Libertarian free will isn't as much about the consequences, as it is about the independence of influence when making decisions.

Libertarian free will is that will which is independent of outside influence in the decision making process. Noone that I have ever known has ever practiced libertarian free will. All of us are influenced by outside sources.
 
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Hammster

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1) No, I do NOT believe that God is NOT in control OF HIS CREATION.
2) The problem is in how we define the sovereignty of God. I believe that because God is omniscient, He has perfect foreknowledge (without having to determine what happens), and thereby is still very much in control.

E.g. God could KNOW Adam was going to choose to sin (by his own choice ... without being decreed, ordained, or predetermined to do so by God); and therefore, (based upon His own foreknowledge), He also was fully prepared to respond to Adam's sin.
Meaning ... God was still in control.

Please, do not assume you think you know what I believe, and then make false assertions based upon those assumptions.
It wasn’t a false assumption. I asked in another thread if there was anything random. You said there was.

You don’t think God was in control of Adam’s decision. That’s what you believe.
 
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Dave L

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"He did not give God the glory": true (pride)

Free will is far more appealing as giving God the glory than calling everyone a robot. One of the central themes in the old testament was that the old testament church was supposed to draw people outside the old testament church towards the old testament church and to the God of Israel. Most people i know are turned off by an over emphasis on predestination. I would be fully happy not to strive to do a good job at work tommorow and just let the money arrive in my mail box every 2 weeks. I never understand how someone who overemphasizes predestination can be so adamantly against socialism. I myself am not a socialist. Our beliefs very often have an effect on our actions and also on our neighbors.
Free will saves and gets the glory. Only your goodness and modesty will say God did it instead.
 
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frogoon234

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It wasn’t a false assumption. I asked in another thread if there was anything random. You said there was.

You don’t think God was in control of Adam’s decision. That’s what you believe.

I'm not saying predestination isn't a reality but Jesus orchestrates severe suffering of others, how does that bring glory to Jesus. Perhaps at certain moments Jesus is not aware of what we will do and at those given moments we do have free will. Predestination is not necessarily all that great at bringing glory to Jesus/God. If i Bob came to Jack's house and trashed his house and then filmed Jack's negative reaction that wouldn't bring as much glory to Bob then if Bob just prayed for both Bob and Jack to be positively influenced by the Bible. If Bob wants to positively effect Jack's future actions, then Bob's best bet is possibly just to do something to encourage Jack to read his Bible. Predestination in every case does not bring glory to Jesus/God.
 
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frogoon234

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Free will saves and gets the glory. Only your goodness and modesty will say God did it instead.

Can you rephrase this. "Free will saves and God gets the glory" is this what you meant.

Other than that i agree with this for the most part. I attribute extreme use of Calvinism to complacency. Other than that i have no disagreement with Calvinism.
 
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Hammster

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I'm not saying predestination isn't a reality but Jesus orchestrates severe suffering of others, how does that bring glory to Jesus. Perhaps at certain moments Jesus is not aware of what we will do and at those given moments we do have free will. Predestination is not necessarily all that great at bringing glory to Jesus/God. If i Bob came to Jack's house and trashed his house and then filmed Jack's negative reaction that wouldn't bring as much glory to Bob then if Bob just prayed for both Bob and Jack to be positively influenced by the Bible. If Bob wants to positively effect Jack's future actions, then Bob's best bet is possibly just to do something to encourage Jack to read his Bible. Predestination in every case does not bring glory to Jesus/God.
Everything God does brings glory to Himself.
 
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frogoon234

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Everything God does brings glory to Himself.

True but only in the future sense. Jesus/God is a living God and he has emotions. A statue of a god has no emotions but the living God has emotions and it is expedient if we treat Jesus/God as though he has emotions.
 
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Hammster

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Can you rephrase this. "Free will saves and God gets the glory" is this what you meant.

Other than that i agree with this for the most part. I attribute extreme use of Calvinism to complacency. Other than that i have no disagreement with Calvinism.
Complacency comes, mostly, as a misunderstanding of Reformed Theology, not because of it. For instance, one can be prideful thinking they are elect. However, if one understands that they are vile and would never chose Christ apart from His mercy and grace, it should be the most humbling of thoughts.
 
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True but only in the future sense. Jesus/God is a living God and he has emotions. A statue of a god has no emotions but the living God has emotions and it is expedient if we treat Jesus/God as though he has emotions.
Not in a future sense. In every sense.
 
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