Amillenialism and the nation of Israel

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The Preterism, whether partial, full, lite, or special, is a false doctrine. They, like the Dispensaltialisists, share the same blindness like the unfaithful Jews of Old who are expecting for a physical kingdom, city, stones, thone, nation, etc. Christ's kingdom is not of this world. Keep that in mind.
Christ's Kingdom is not of this present world system, but will be physical in the regeneration of this earth when Christ Jesus comes to reign from Jerusalem on the throne of David.
(I agree all forms of preterism is false).
 
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Not David

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I have recently taken the more amillenial view (I prefer the term postmillenial, however that has a different meaning to many these days). But I still have difficulty believing the return of the Jews to their historic land this past century has no prophetic significance. Thoughts?
There were Jews already living there, and no every Jew lives there. Plus, Orthodox Jews don't believe it is the real Israel until their Messiah comes and reintroduces the Jewish law, which is against what Christ came. Also, there were ideas of Zionism the century before the creation of the State of Israel.
 
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mister rogers

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Do you believe we are in the 1,000 year Millennium now?
Not literally 1000 365-day years, but yes perhaps that it spans the entire Church age; Jesus reigning from heaven since His ascension, then He returns to resurrect the dead, bring final judgment, new heavens and new earth.
 
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TribulationSigns

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I did not avoid anything. Verse 28 does not change anything I said. But for your edification...

Romans 11:28
  • "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes."
The unbelieving Jews are enemies of the gospel, and indeed of converted Jews and Gentiles. But as for the election of Israel, these are beloved for the promises made to the fathers. For example, the promise to the fathers of deliverance would be kept in "this Election." This verse is contrasting the two Israels (Romans 9:6), which are unbelieving Israel (who are enemies of the Church), and election (who are beloved) of God.

There are those who object to "all Israel" in verse 26 pertaining to only the elect, because they surmise that then the elect in this verse would have to be regarded as enemies. They come to this conclusion because they either forget, or ignore the witness of the context, and of the whole Bible in general. God has already informed us that, "All Israel are not Israel." So then, when it says in the proceeding verses that "ALL ISRAEL shall be saved," it must refer only to the Israel of God who are elect. The election of Israel excludes those who are not elect of Israel. Even as the scriptures declared:

"..Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

The election of Israel have obtained that promise, and the rest of Israel were blinded, even as the imagery of the branches of the Olive tree signified.

And in truth, even the staunchest defender of the distinction of Israel will usually not claim that the term "all Israel" means every single person in Israel will be saved. Therefore, despite his protests, that shows that he does recognize that some of Israel are not included in this "all Israel" that shall be saved. Thus he is actually agreeing that it means only some of the nation of Israel shall be saved.

Moreover, when scripture declared, "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins," then by definition, and by any normal grammatical structure, this "all Israel" in view will then have their sins washed away.

1st John 3:5-6
  • "And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
  • Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
This was the coming of Christ, when He took away Israel's sins. And so indeed, those of Israel who reject this Christ, they become enemies because of the gospel. While concerning those of Israel who are elect, they are beloved because of the promise to the fathers. All Israel is either for Christ, or they are against Him. There is no in between. We are seeing the external covenant Israel, and the election that are part of the eternal covenant Israel.
  1. Concerning the gospel, the nation of Israel is blinded and are enemies for our sakes (the Gentiles). For they are at enmity with Christ, and that enmity was the occasion that brought salvation to the whole Gentiles.
  2. Concerning the Election, these of Israel are beloved as the remnant whom God has brought through the fire and purged them from their sins, fulfilling the promise to their fathers.
Israel persecuted the Church because of the gospel message it brought. They are thus enemies for the Church's sake. Which Paul also confessed he did likewise before his conversion, when he was a blind Israelite.

1st Corinthians 15:9
  • "For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."
But Paul was part of the election Israel, within external Israel. God is using him gloriously to bring about salvation to the Gentiles, and accomplish His purposes. His salvation as an Israelite is the fulfillment of the promises He made to the fathers. Israel, the beloved, is a type of Christ (Israel) the Beloved of God. He is the Son called out of Egypt, in whom the election would be beloved of God. It is in Christ that Israel becomes the beloved Holy City. You might want to do a study of the word "beloved" in scripture as it is used in this very interesting way. There is no riddle or mystery concerning this verse about Israel, how it is an enemy in one sense, and concerning the election beloved. The answer to this was stated right in verse seven.

Romans 11:5-8
  • "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
  • And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
  • What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
  • (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day."
Clearly, there are two diverse people within Israel. Israel the nation hasn't obtained it, but Israel the election has obtained it. The remnant is according to the election of Grace, not of race.
The overview of verse twenty-eight is that it is distinguishing between the diverse people of Israel. Concerning the election, they beloved of God for their father Abraham's sake. While the rest are blinded and left in unbelief, and because of the gospel enemies for the sake of the Gentiles. They were blinded that we might see. But concerning Israel the election, they are not blinded, they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. That is why Paul was sorrowful. Because most of his kinsmen according to the flesh were enemies of God, while he, being elect, was beloved. Thus he mourned for them. This verse contrasts Israel as an enemy of the gospel for the Gentile's sake, and yet the election of Israel beloved of God because of the promises, which cannot be made null and void.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Christ's Kingdom is not of this present world system, but will be physical in the regeneration of this earth when Christ Jesus comes to reign from Jerusalem on the throne of David.
(I agree all forms of preterism is false).

We are already in the Kingdom of God so where is Scripture support that the kingdom will sit upon the "regeneration" of this Earth. Will the New Heaven and New Earth have a literal land, a literal throne of David, and a literal city called "Jerusalem" especially after everything will be burned up and everything in former earth we know will be passed away.
 
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We are already in the Kingdom of God so where is Scripture support that the kingdom will sit upon the "regeneration" of this Earth. Will the New Heaven and New Earth have a literal land, a literal throne of David, and a literal city called "Jerusalem" especially after everything will be burned up and everything in former earth we know will be passed away.

Nearly every book in the Jewish Prophets foretell this Kingdom (not referring to the new heaven and new earth.)...

The Millennial Reign
Once the Messiah has poured out the wrath of God on the enemies of God, He will establish His reign over the earth, and He will begin to manifest His glory:

Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, for the Lord of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and His glory will be before His elders (Isaiah 24:23).

All the various aspects about the Lord’s millennial reign are spelled out in detail in the book of Isaiah. The book of Revelation is about the Tribulation. It is the book of Isaiah that reveals the details of the Millennium.

Political Characteristics — The reign will be world-wide (Isaiah 2:2 and 9:6-7). It will be peaceful in nature (Isaiah 2:4), and the world will be blessed with righteousness (Isaiah 11:4-5) and justice (Isaiah 42:3-4).

The Lord’s throne will be established in Jerusalem, for He will occupy the throne of David (Isaiah 2:3). His government will be a theocratic one in which He will serve as king, legislator and judge (Isaiah 33:17-22). The Redeemed will reign with the Lord as princes (Isaiah 32:1). And because the Lord will be reigning from Jerusalem, the nation of Israel will be the prime nation in the world (Isaiah 2:2-3, 49:22-23, and 60:1-62:7).

Spiritual Characteristics — Isaiah spends a great amount of time outlining the spiritual blessings of the Millennium, the greatest of which is the fact that the glory and holiness of the Lord will be manifested (Isaiah 40:3-5, 52:13-15, 61:3 and 66: 18). Holiness will abound (Isaiah 4:2-4) and an attitude of joy and praise will prevail:

And the ransomed of the Lord will return, and come with joyful shouting to Zion, with everlasting joy upon their heads. They will find gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing will flee away (Isaiah 35:10).

A rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem will serve as the worship center of the world (Isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-8, and 60:7b,13). Incredibly, the Shekinah glory of God will hover over the city of Jerusalem like a canopy (Isaiah 4:5). And “the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea” (Isaiah 11:9).

The Redemption of Nature — One aspect of the Millennium that is heavily emphasized by the Hebrew prophets is the redemption of nature. The land of Israel will no longer be a place of desolation (Isaiah 62:3-5). Instead, “the fruit of the earth” will be the pride of Israel (Isaiah 4:2). “Waters will break forth in the wilderness,” and the deserts will become pools of water (Isaiah 35:6b-7).

In addition to agricultural abundance, the animal kingdom will be restored to its original perfection. Poisonous animals will cease to be poisonous, and meat-eating animals will become herbivorous. All members of the animal kingdom will live together in perfect peace with each other and with Mankind (Isaiah 11:6-9 and 65:25).


The Quality of Life — In a thrilling passage in Isaiah 65, the prophet reveals that lifespans for those in the flesh will be greatly expanded to “the lifetime of a tree” (Isaiah 65:22). Accordingly, anyone who dies at the age of 100 will be considered a youth (Isaiah 65:20).

Every person will have his own home and vineyard. There will be no homeless or hungry people (Isaiah 65:21-22). All labor will be redeemed (Isaiah 65:23) in the sense that it will be productive, and it will not be confiscated by others.

Disease will be curtailed (Isaiah 33:24) and persons born with physical handicaps will be healed:

Then the eyes of the blind will be opened, and the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. Then the lame will leap like a deer, and the tongue of the dumb will shout with joy (Isaiah 35:5-6).
The Millennium in the Old Testament

(you can ignore the explanations but do check out the given verses.)
 
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TribulationSigns

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(you can ignore the explanations but do check out the given verses.)

It is not these verses in the book of Isaiah that are the problem. It is your literal interpretation of that is what's wrong. Spiritual discernment is the key.

Say, for example, the Rivers and fountains of waters are both synonyms for the church, and of course, those dying in the waters must consequently be those in the church. The Lord Jesus Christ is the river of life and the fountain of living waters, and of course, the Lord's people are His representatives. For example:

Jeremiah 2:13
  • "For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water."
God is the fountain of waters and in representing Him as his messengers, we would naturally be signified as that on earth, just as He is the spiritual Holy City Jerusalem, and we are the spiritual Holy City Jerusalem. Just as we are signified as the body of Christ, as Sons of God and as Israel. Again in Jeremiah 2:13, God again refers to himself as the "fountain of living waters" and in Isaiah as the "river" opened in High places.

Zechariah 13:1
  • "In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness."
Now compare this with...

Isaiah 41:17-18

  • "When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them.
  • I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water."
Do you think God is talking about physical water and wilderness here? No! Here we see God using the same rivers and fountains of waters as a synonym for the church that is established with the coming of Christ, that the poor and needy shall come to drink of the waters of life.

This is just one of many examples in Isaiah why your literal understanding/interpretation cannot be support by the Word of God. Selah.
 
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Berean
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There were Jews already living there, and no every Jew lives there. Plus, Orthodox Jews don't believe it is the real Israel until their Messiah comes and reintroduces the Jewish law, which is against what Christ came. Also, there were ideas of Zionism the century before the creation of the State of Israel.

That (in red) should be a clue right there. Since they are wrong about the identity of their Messiah (they think He is yet to come the first time), they are most likely wrong about the identity of the 'real Israel'.
 
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It is not these verses in the book of Isaiah that are the problem. It is your literal interpretation of that is what's wrong. Spiritual discernment is the key.

Say, for example, the Rivers and fountains of waters are both synonyms for the church, and of course, those dying in the waters must consequently be those in the church. The Lord Jesus Christ is the river of life and the fountain of living waters, and of course, the Lord's people are His representatives. For example:

Jeremiah 2:13
  • "For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water."
God is the fountain of waters and in representing Him as his messengers, we would naturally be signified as that on earth, just as He is the spiritual Holy City Jerusalem, and we are the spiritual Holy City Jerusalem. Just as we are signified as the body of Christ, as Sons of God and as Israel. Again in Jeremiah 2:13, God again refers to himself as the "fountain of living waters" and in Isaiah as the "river" opened in High places.

Zechariah 13:1
  • "In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness."
Now compare this with...

Isaiah 41:17-18

  • "When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them.
  • I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water."
Do you think God is talking about physical water and wilderness here? No! Here we see God using the same rivers and fountains of waters as a synonym for the church that is established with the coming of Christ, that the poor and needy shall come to drink of the waters of life.

This is just one of many examples in Isaiah why your literal understanding/interpretation cannot be support by the Word of God. Selah.
Answer me this, The OT were literally fulfilled at Christ's first coming, why not also at His 2nd Coming? Why the change?
Do you realize it is a greater miracle to have a fulfillment literally come to pass, than to have it 'spiritually fulfilled'?
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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I'm sure not sufficiently to one satisfaction, but would it really matter to someone who already has their mind made up and refuses to be confused by the Biblical "facts?"

The Scriptures say clearly the one that fought against the nations was the Lord, and in that day His feet would stand upon the mount of Olives before Jerusalem. This was Christ at His first advent.

Matthew 21:1
  • "And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,"
Matthew 24:3
  • "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
Christ made His triumphant Entry AS KING into Jerusalem from the mount of Olives. Surely you don't believe this is all coincidence? Their King had come, He did fulfill Scripture, He did rule from Jerusalem, and Everlasting waters (Holy Spirit) did flow. It's not a future occurrence in 70AD or modern nation of Israel, it is Done!

That's why so many people can't make sense of the Bible. They look at it as simply a history book.
This has yet to happen yet.
Zech 14:
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lordmy God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


The mount of Olives is still intact. Show me the great valley that came from the parting of the whole Mt of Olives. It is obvious this event has yet to take place brother, Jerusalem will once again be taken and the people slain and women ravished all nations will gather against it. Then the Lord in the spirit will return and drive them out, only then will the physical Mt of Olives part and create a very great valley.
None of this has come to pass yet either.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

Nowhere are we told any of this is a non literal event, everything spoken of here is clearly seen as actual physical events that must take place before the Lord's physical second coming the flesh on the Last day.
 
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TribulationSigns

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This has yet to happen yet.

Sorry to disappoint you, Zechariah 14, has fulfilled with the kingdom of God established on earth. Its spiritual kingdom.

Beside, tell me what does this verse you quoted about?

Zechariah 14:12
And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
 
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This has yet to happen yet.
Zech 14:
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lordmy God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


The mount of Olives is still intact. Show me the great valley that came from the parting of the whole Mt of Olives. It is obvious this event has yet to take place brother, Jerusalem will once again be taken and the people slain and women ravished all nations will gather against it. Then the Lord in the spirit will return and drive them out, only then will the physical Mt of Olives part and create a very great valley.
None of this has come to pass yet either.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

Nowhere are we told any of this is a non literal event, everything spoken of here is clearly seen as actual physical events that must take place before the Lord's physical second coming the flesh on the Last day.
See how the game is played, when one spiritualizes everything, then anything can happen at anytime one wants it to happen.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Sorry to disappoint you, Zechariah 14, has fulfilled with the kingdom of God established on earth. Its spiritual kingdom.

Beside, tell me what does this verse you quoted about?

Zechariah 14:12
And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Show me the great valley where the Mt of Olvies used to be. All I see is a Mountain, no valley there yet brother.

It is a plague set upon those who fought against Jerusalem, a plague never shown throughout history. It comes upon those driven out by Christ's parting of the Mt of Olives. This event/plague has not yet happened on this earth.

Tell me brother if Zech 14 is just spiritual and not an actual set of events. How does ones flesh spiritually consume away while they stand upon their feet? How does ones eyes consume away in their hole spiritually? How does ones tongue spiritually consume away in their mouth?

I am very curious about how these things occur spiritually.
 
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Show me the great valley where the Mt of Olvies used to be. All I see is a Mountain, no valley there yet brother.

It is a plague set upon those who fought against Jerusalem, a plague never shown throughout history. It comes upon those driven out by Christ's parting of the Mt of Olives. This event/plague has not yet happened on this earth.

Tell me brother if Zech 14 is just spiritual and not an actual set of events. How does ones flesh spiritually consume away while they stand upon their feet? How does ones eyes consume away in their hole spiritually? How does ones tongue spiritually consume away in their mouth?

I am very curious about how these things occur spiritually.

{Chuckle}

I take that you cannot really answer my question concerning verse 12. I asked you because you were the one who has quoted it. The real question is, what have you done to it? Do you really understand what God said? Have you compare Scripture with Scripture where you let God define His own terms, or have you "read into" these scriptures a humanistic theory of a nuclear bomb "AS IF" that is straight from the mouth of God and the only thing that would qualify as fulfillment, humm?

Zechariah 14:12
  • "And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth."
It says "plague," not a nuclear blast. Notice the word, "plague?" Get it? That means we should define plagues by scripture, not by current events or prognosticators, okay? We don't privately interpret a plague to mean a nuclear blast because it may sound about right? If God had wanted to say great massive nuclear explosion creating spectacular damage, He would have said that. For He knows "the end from the beginning." We also know the Biblical principle that the scriptures are not subject to our own private interpretation. If we're going to privately interpret flesh consuming away while people stand upon their feet, why not God bringing the Sun closer towards the earth to do it? I mean, if we're just going to guess at it. Why not have the fire from heaven coming down and doing it? Why not have aliens from another planet coming with laser ray guns to do it (Can anyone please play Star Wars theme here?). Why not have acid rain get so bad that it eats our flesh away? Why? Because the scriptures are not subject to our imaginations, fears, theories, myths, or private interpretations. It is subject only to itself. Therefore, scripture is its own interpreter and its own dictionary. Thus it will be plagued as defined in God's Word, not as defined by the movie, "Late Great Planet Earth" or your favorite sundry authors.

Now, my friend, do you agree with this before I go further? Yes or No, please. If not, don't waste my time because you will not be able to see the Truth. It is because your eyes may have been consumed away in its holes (hint, hint). Now, what did I mean by this? Think about it.

I am done for tonight. Good night!
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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{Chuckle}

I take that you cannot really answer my question concerning verse 12. I asked you because you were the one who has quoted it. The real question is, what have you done to it? Do you really understand what God said? Have you compare Scripture with Scripture where you let God define His own terms, or have you "read into" these scriptures a humanistic theory of a nuclear bomb "AS IF" that is straight from the mouth of God and the only thing that would qualify as fulfillment, humm?

Zechariah 14:12
  • "And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth."
It says "plague," not a nuclear blast. Notice the word, "plague?" Get it? That means we should define plagues by scripture, not by current events or prognosticators, okay? We don't privately interpret a plague to mean a nuclear blast because it may sound about right? If God had wanted to say great massive nuclear explosion creating spectacular damage, He would have said that. For He knows "the end from the beginning." We also know the Biblical principle that the scriptures are not subject to our own private interpretation. If we're going to privately interpret flesh consuming away while people stand upon their feet, why not God bringing the Sun closer towards the earth to do it? I mean, if we're just going to guess at it. Why not have the fire from heaven coming down and doing it? Why not have aliens from another planet coming with laser ray guns to do it (Can anyone please play Star Wars theme here?). Why not have acid rain get so bad that it eats our flesh away? Why? Because the scriptures are not subject to our imaginations, fears, theories, myths, or private interpretations. It is subject only to itself. Therefore, scripture is its own interpreter and its own dictionary. Thus it will be plagued as defined in God's Word, not as defined by the movie, "Late Great Planet Earth" or your favorite sundry authors. We define the loss of eyes as illustrated in God's Word, not by man's ideas of earthly blinding. We then see the loss of tongue (language) or speech as defined in God's Word, not as defined by man's "vivid" imagination.

Do you agree with this before I go further? Yes or No, please. If not, don't waste my time because you will not be able to "receive" the Word of Truth I testify.
I answered your question telling you exactly what scripture said. Where your getting this idea of a nuclear blast I cannot say, it seems you are reading into my words just as much as you are reading into God's word. Adding your own interpretation to what is said.

Here is what I said again brother, read it closely and see if you see any mention of a nuclear blast, or anything other than a plague being mentioned.
"It is a plague set upon those who fought against Jerusalem, a plague never shown throughout history. It comes upon those driven out by Christ's parting of the Mt of Olives. This event/plague has not yet happened on this earth."

Now after reading it a couple times you should be able to see that I said PLAGUE and not anything else. If you can't see this much brother then we really have nothing to speak about. Talking with a man who puts words in my mouth is not something I do brother.

If you are willing to listen to what I have to say and read what I have to show you then I would be more than happy to continue this discussion about the Lord, and to compare your doctrine with the one I hold to see which one is in full agreement with scripture and which one is not. If you are not then we have nothing more to speak about.

No. I do not agree brother, as you have not proven anything you have said with scripture, instead you have only given your own private interpretation.

May God guide you to the truth and light of his word brother
 
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TribulationSigns

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Here is what I said again brother, read it closely and see if you see any mention of a nuclear blast, or anything other than a plague being mentioned.

"It is a plague set upon those who fought against Jerusalem, a plague never shown throughout history. It comes upon those driven out by Christ's parting of the Mt of Olives. This event/plague has not yet happened on this earth."

You are playing games here. You still have NOT explained what verse 12 actually talked about? What plague is this, really? Did the verse say anything about Mount of Olives, where the word, "plague" is mentioned? Who will the plague the LORD smite upon? Who are those people fought against Jerusalem? What Jerusalem is this? Many questions, yet you can't answer.

Zechariah 14:12
  • "And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth."
Are you saying that the Lord supernaturally caused their eyes to consume away in their holes, and their tongues consumed away in their mouth where you consider it as a "plague"? Yes? No?

Now after reading it a couple times you should be able to see that I said PLAGUE and not anything else. If you can't see this much brother then we really have nothing to speak about. Talking with a man who puts words in my mouth is not something I do brother.

And you STILL interpret the "plague" as a literal event whatever you think it might be because you thought it may alter (parting) the Mount of Olives literally. That is not what verse 12 says.

No. I do not agree brother, as you have not proven anything you have said with scripture, instead you have only given your own private interpretation.

Which is NOT surprising that you don't agree, yet I have not even explained with Scripture what verse 12 says myself yet. As I said, I won't waste my time with you here. Someone else who wants to know may contact me.

Now good night!
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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You are playing games here. You still have NOT explained what verse 12 actually talked about? What plague is this, really? Did the verse say anything about Mount of Olives, where the word, "plague" is mentioned? Who will the plague the LORD smite upon? Who are those people fought against Jerusalem? What Jerusalem is this? Many questions, yet you can't answer.

Zechariah 14:12
  • "And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth."
Are you saying that the Lord supernaturally caused their eyes to consume away in their holes, and their tongues consumed away in their mouth where you consider it as a "plague"? Yes? No?



And you STILL interpret the "plague" as a literal event whatever you think it might be because you thought it may alter (parting) the Mount of Olives literally. That is not what verse 12 says.



Which is NOT surprising that you don't agree, yet I have not even explained with Scripture what verse 12 says myself yet. As I said, I won't waste my time with you here. Someone else who wants to know may contact me.

Now good night!
May the Lord guide you to the truth of his word brother.
 
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His student

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............I still have difficulty believing the return of the Jews to their historic land this past century has no prophetic significance. Thoughts?
"and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation," Acts 17:26

I find it impossible to believe that God appointed the time for modern Israel's birth and her boundaries in the Middle East without a particular reason for her existence in these end times.

Then He made it a point to say that the end time temple in Jerusalem will be the site of an atrocity in His eyes and that the final battle will occur at Meggido within the boundaries of that modern nation of Israel just south of Narareth the home town of the Son of Man and that He will draw a group of nations from the North against her - and He supposedly is doing it just kind of on a lark and it's all just symbolic anyway?

I doubt it very much. But then I hold a per-Millennial view of things - just like the Holy Spirit does.:)
 
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mister rogers

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Could it be that the prophecy of Ezekiel and the valley of dry bones concerns their return? Perhaps this is what Paul refers to in Romans 11:25-26? I understand that ALL Israel would not not necessarily mean every single one, but could it be God brought them back as part of his plan before a mass conversion? There does seem to be a growing number already of conversions to Christ.
 
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Dave L

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I have recently taken the more amillenial view (I prefer the term postmillenial, however that has a different meaning to many these days). But I still have difficulty believing the return of the Jews to their historic land this past century has no prophetic significance. Thoughts?
God controls all nations. So it is no accident the State of Israel exists today. Here's how it plays out. Jesus and believers are Abraham's Seed (biblical Israel). God removed the unbelievers from Biblical Israel according to Paul in Romans 11. But for the father's sake, he reattaches believers from among the broken off to Biblical Israel. This will remain until the end of the world when the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. (we preach to all nations (gentiles) until the end of the world when Jesus returns. And in this way all (Biblical) Israel will be saved.
 
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