A systematic look at the Bible and homosexuality

There are two separate issues to the Leviticus reference:
1. What does it prohibit?
2. Do we care?

The only convincing answer I have ever seen to the question of "which laws in Leviticus still apply" was from mac_philo, who said "the ones that don't affect the majority of middle-class Americans". We lend upon usury, we wear mixed fabrics, we sow mixed crops, we talk to women during their periods... Leviticus is simply *ignored* 99% of the time, unless one of the prohibitions sounds like it supports a position.

So, in that sense, it doesn't really matter what Leviticus says; we won't follow it unless we have some other reason to, so really, we never use Leviticus - we just use other sources to make our decisions.

As to what it talks about, you're right that these passages are probably the same prohibition. We can learn a bit about the prohibition from that. The chapters of Leviticus are roughly sorted by type; 18:3 says "After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances."

In other words, God is concerned about people following the *laws* of Canaan and Egypt, and the *practices*. If you look at the lists of things, they correspond to known cultural practices of Canaan and Egypt - for instance, the Egyptians tended to marry royal siblings to each other, to "keep the line pure".

The practice of neighboring lands best described by 18:22 is ritual prostitution; by the time of Deuteronomy, a word for it has been invented, and we see that word used repeatedly throughout the rest of the Old Testament. No mystery here, to me.

  So, in that sense, it doesn't really matter what Leviticus says; we won't follow it unless we have some other reason to, so really, we never use Leviticus - we just use other sources to make our decisions.

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The Law of the Old Testament can be divided into three categories - moral, ceremonial and judicial.  The moral law is forever binding because it expresses God's character and is reiterated in the New Covenant.  The ceremonial law, which includes the code for sacrifices and cleanliness, was fulfilled in the death of Christ, who is the ultimate sacrafice and the only purification we now need.  The civil law pertained to Israel as a nation and are not now binding since God's people today are connected by a spiritual - rather than a physical - kindgom.  The laws concerning homosexuality would definitely fall within the moral category. 

Well, Apollo, I'm not sure where you come up with the idea of moral, judicial and ceremonial. Is this a Biblical idea, and if so, where is your proof?

That said, are people drawing a distinction between homosexuality and homosexual behavior?

Apollo Bellvedre:

I do not believe that you can divide the law into sections. It is not biblical. The law (singular) is always pointed to as singular, not plural (laws) to be divided into as you have done. It would seem that you have been taught this and are keeping it up.

ScottEmerson,

"Well, Apollo, I'm not sure where you come up with the idea of moral, judicial and ceremonial. Is this a Biblical idea, and if so, where is your proof?"

The idea that Old Testament Law can be divided into three categories can be found in The Westminister Confession of Faith.  Though it is not explicitly divided in the Bible itself, its apparent that there are three different aspects of significance in the Old Law. 

"That said, are people drawing a distinction between homosexuality and homosexual behavior?"

I don't know whether people today intentionally try to make a distinction between the two, but I wouldn't be surprised.  Except really, what are they accomplishing other than deluding themselves?  Homosexuality entails homosexual behavior, and is clearly prohibited in the Bible. 

leecappella,

"I do not believe that you can divide the law into sections. It is not biblical. The law (singular) is always pointed to as singular, not plural (laws) to be divided into as you have done. It would seem that you have been taught this and are keeping it up."

I'm not advocating that the Law be divided into different sections, only categories within the Law itself.  Its not an idea of my own, I merely came across when reading an article.  I'm not an expert on Old Testament Law, but it makes sense that its precepts would be significant for different reasons.     

Fragments of dreams:

I agree that it is important to come to an understanding of the terms "man" and "mankind" in Leviticus 18:22. To put it briefly as I can, the two terms have different meanings. I'm sure that most bible readers think that they both refer to the general male, opposite of female, but it is much more than that. The first term, "man" is in reference to a male in general. There is no specific male this term is targeting. It's hebrew definition specifies males as opposed to females. However, the term "mankind" as used in verse 22 refers to more than just some generic male. It's hebrew definition implies someone worth remembering. Someone who is not your general or generic male. Not just anybody, but someone who is a somebody. In this context, I would think that it is implying not to lay down with idols or those who represent an idol (temple prostitues). The reference to Molech in verse 21 is worth looking into. Other biblical references to other gods/goddesses such as Ashtoreth are also worth studying. I've read about Ashtoreth's prostitutes being males who dressed up like their female deity (Ashtoreth) and servicing men (males). It has also been said that the phrase, I'm paraphrasing, of "letting thy seed pass through the fire to Molech" is in reference to sacrificial killing of children to this pagan idol or letting Israelite children grow up to be devotees of pagan gods (temple prostitutes). There's quite a bit of historical resources online to read about this. Check it out. Also, keep in mind the contextual hebrew defintion of "abomination" which normally means things associated with idolatry or the idol itself.

Apollo Belvedre:

To divide the law within its existence still makes no sense to me. There are obviously some things in the law that are not sins in and of themselves (ie. sewing two kinds of seeds together in one field, wearing two types of fabrics at the same time, etc.) and some things that are (adultery, incest, etc.), but even so, new testament references to the law view it all as one single unit. Paul makes it clear that the law served like a schoolmaster at one time, but he advocates that we are "no longer under a schoolmaster". The conclusion is clear to me. Also, the bible states that if anyone breaks one point of the law, he/she is guilty of breaking all. So, it makes sense to me that if one aspect of the law is disregarded (ie. Peter's vision of eating unclean meats that the law prohibited;Jesus' reference to what goes in one's mouth does not defile a person, etc.) then ALL other aspects of the law do not apply as well. Ofcourse, there are those things that are a sin in and of themselves. To discern what those things are requires a pesonal relationship with God and the guidance of the Spirit.


Leecappella

Yesterday at 05:12 PM fragmentsofdreams said this in Post #9

Apollo Believer-

How do you know that homosexuality falls under the moral Law (assuming your distinction is valid)? What if the Law is refering to something other than what you are thinking of?

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The moral law is forever binding because it expresses God's character and is reiterated in the New Covenant.  The New Testament prohibits homosexuality just as the Old Testament does.   

 

Also, a homosexual is a person who is attracted to and predisposed to falling in love with the same sex. Just like someone who is engaged loves his/her fiance without having sex with him/her, a homosexual does not necessarily need to have ever had homosexual sex.

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According to Jesus a husband need only to look upon another woman with lust to be an adulterer (Mt 5:28).  Homosexuality entails homosexual behavior.

A lecture delivered by H.H. Pope Shenouda III of the Coptic Orthodox Church to the priests of the Church of England on the topic of Homosexuality and Christianity:

THE FIRST
LECTURE
HOMOSEXUALITY
I am very glad to have the opportunity to speak to the ministers
of the Church of England. I mean, to speak to the angels of the
Church and the ministers of our Lord; those who were
mentioned in the Book of Revelation as stars in the right hand
of our Lord.
I thank God that He has given me the opportunity to speak to
those to whom the Lord said: "You shall be witnesses to Me."
(Acts 1:8). ‘Witnesses to Me', that means, witnesses to the
truth; to the Holy Bible; to the commandments of God; and to
what the Holy Spirit has passed on to the Churches.
I want to speak to you about numerous things, and if you would
like a discussion about a particular issue, I am willing to discuss
it with you.
The Holiness Of The Church
The first matter is the holiness of the Church. In the holy
Creed we say: "We believe in one holy Church". This holy
Church is Apostolic and Universal. In the Apostolic age, all
believers were called saints. A believer in the teachings of the
Bible means a saint, because we are sanctified with faith,
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sanctified in baptism, sanctified in the holy Chrism, and
sanctified by the work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.
We are not merely human beings, we are temples of the Holy
Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is abiding in us, as it is written in the
First Epistle to the Corinthians, chapters 3 and 6. As temples of
the Holy Spirit, we should have communion with the Holy
Spirit. The work of a believer is not simply the work of an
individual, but rather the work of the Holy Spirit itself in that
person, who is a temple of the Holy Spirit.
We are also the image of God, and we project to the world
the image of God. The world sees in our conduct and in our
behaviour what demonstrates that we are really children of God.
At the beginning of the Epistles of Saint Paul to the Romans, he
writes: "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an
Apostle, separated to the gospel of God.. to all who are in
Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints" (Rom. 1: 1,7).
Also, in another Epistle, he writes: "To the church of God
which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus,
called to be saints" (1Cor. 1: 2). Further still, in the Second
Epistle, he says: "To the church of God which is at Corinth,
with all the saints who are in all Achaia " (2Cor. 1: 1).
When he writes to Ephesus, he sends his greetings to all the
saints in Ephesus, and to the Philippians he does the same.
Again, when he writes to the Hebrews, for example, in chapter
3, he writes to those who are called to the Divine Call, who are
also saints.
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If we are supposed to be saints, then how must we behave,
and, more importantly, how can we convey that holy
Image to the world?
In the Apostolic age, not everyone was allowed to enter the
Church. Only those who were worthy could attend the holy
Eucharist and partake in the Blood and Body of our Lord Jesus
Christ. This holy life is what we are called to, because we are
the children of a holy Father. Saint Peter speaks about this
point and says: "...as obedient children, not conforming
yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He
who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
because it is written, 'Be holy, for I am holy '" (1Pet. 1: 14-16),
and this was written in Leviticus (Lev. 11: 44).
Holy people do not live in the lust of the flesh, but they
behave according to the Spirit.
A holy person has two characteristics. The first is that his flesh
is guided by the spirit; by his human spirit. And the second is
that his spirit, his human spirit, is guided by the Spirit of God.
So the Spirit of God is guiding the whole person; guiding both
the spirit and the body, and hence that person should be holy in
spirit and in body.
Let me read some verses from chapter 8 of the Epistle of Saint
Paul to the Romans about the body and the spirit. The holy
Apostle says: “There is therefore now no condemnation to
those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to
the flesh, but according to the Spirit” (Rom. 8: 1). And in
verse 5, he says: “For those who live according to the flesh set
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their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live
according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be
carnal minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and
peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is
not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be" (Rom. 8: 5-
7). And then he says: "... if Christ is in you, the body is dead
because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness "
(Rom. 8: 10). Then he says: "Therefore, brethren, we are
debtors- not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if
you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit
you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as
many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God"
(Rom. 8:12-14). Here, Saint Paul depicts the sons of God as
those who are led by the Spirit of the Lord.
Let me now venture to speak about a subject that is rather
contentious, and is currently quite outspread, and that needs the
grace of our Lord to be overcome; this subject of
homosexuality. I am sorry to even have to speak about this
issue, it should not be a matter of discussion.
Homosexuality Is Against Nature
Homosexuality is against nature because sexual relations are
permitted only within the confines of marriage, and marriage is
only permitted between a man and a woman, male and female.
Hence, any sexual conduct outside these confines can only be
described as an abnormality; an act against nature.
When our Lord Jesus Christ discussed the issue of
Homosexuality with the scribes and Pharisees, as written in the
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Gospel of Saint Matthew chapter 19 and the Gospel of Saint
Mark chapter 10, He said: "From the beginning.. God 'made
them male and female '", man and woman. This is the proper
way of nature and the will of our Lord form the beginning of
creation.
But when people behaved according to the lust of the flesh in
the Old Testament, they received severe punishment from God,
as at the time of the Flood when only the pure, the eight people
in Noah’s Ark, were saved, and all others perished. Also the
people of Sodom, who were unclean, were burned with fire.
They also behaved according to the lust of the flesh, the lust of
the body; they were unclean in their spirit.
Homosexuals Shall Not Enter The Kingdom Of Heaven
Carnal people cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. We read
this in the Book of Revelation, chapter 21, where it speaks
about the heavenly Jerusalem and says: "But there shall by no
means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination"
(Rev. 21: 27).
Homosexuals Were Punished By Death
We read that homosexuality is a kind of abomination which in
the Old Testament was punishable by death. If we, for example,
read Leviticus, chapter 18, verse 22, God says: “You shall not
lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.” And
also in the Book of Leviticus, chapter 20, verse 13, “If a man
lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have
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committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death.
Their blood shall be upon them.”
Homosexuality Condemned In The New Testament
Of course, the New Testament is no less pure than the Old
Testament. So we find at least four examples against
homosexuality. In Romans chapter one, in the First Epistle to
the Corinthians chapter 6, in the Epistle of Saint Jude, and in
the Epistle to Timothy. I will now read some of these verses to
remind us of the teachings of the Holy Bible.
Example (1)
In Romans chapter one, it is written: "For the wrath of God is
revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and
unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in
unrighteousness." How is the wrath of God revealed? Verse
24 says: "Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in
the lusts of their hearts, to dishonour their bodies among
themselves." ‘Gave them up’, this means that the grace of God
has left them, that they were forsaken to their own uncleanness
to dishonour their bodies. In such abnormality they debase the
flesh.
The honour of the body is to be the temple of the Holy Spirit.
But if it is abused then it is a dishonour to the body. "For this
reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their
women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman,
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burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing
what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of
their error which was due" (Rom. 1: 26,27).
In his Epistle to the Romans, Saint Paul also spoke about the
debased minds, and about things which are not fitting. So,
when he says: 'exchanged the natural use for what is against
nature', it means that homosexuality is against nature.
Furthermore, he says that it is an act of uncleanness, an act that
dishonours of the body and that is worthy of punishment. Thus,
according to the teachings of Saint Paul, homosexuality is not
only an act against nature, as was created by our Lord, it is
shameful and abominable.
Example (2)
In the First Epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 6, the Apostle
says: "Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters,
nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites... will inherit
the kingdom of God" (1Cor. 6: 9). None of these will inherit
the kingdom of God.
As for living in the Spirit and not according to the flesh, he also
says: "Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is
outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins
against his own body" (1Cor. 6: 18). What is meant by ‘his
own body’? It means that he is sinning against the temple of the
Holy Spirit. The Apostle says: "... do you not know that your
body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you
have from God, and you are not your own?" (1Cor. 6: 19).
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Your body is not your own; your body is the temple of the Holy
Spirit.
When a person sins against his body, it means that he is
separating himself from the Holy Spirit. Light and darkness
cannot exist together in one place. From the beginning God
separated light from darkness (Gen. 1). Therefore, we cannot
have the Holy Spirit abiding in our body if we sin against it by
what is shameful.
The Apostle says: "...glorify God in your body and in your
spirit which are God's" (1Cor. 6: 20), meaning that both the
body and the spirit belong to God, and hence should be
glorified. Also, in chapter 3 he adds: "Do you not know that
you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in
you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy
him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are"
(1Cor. 3: 16,17).
In the First Epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 6, the Apostle
also says: "Do you not know that your bodies are members of
Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them
members of a harlot? Certainly not!" (1Cor. 6: 15). We are
the members of Christ because we are His body and His bones.
Saint Paul says: "It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in
me" (Gal. 2: 20). So, if Christ lives in us, how can we abuse
our bodies in such ways, how can we defile the members of
Christ, the temple of the Holy Spirit? How can we abuse
and dishonour the holy image of God by living in the lust of the
flesh? This is against holy life and against chastity.
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Example (3)
In his Epistle, Saint Jude says: "...as Sodom and Gomorra, and
the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having
given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after
strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the
vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7).
Example (4)
In the First Epistle to Timothy, the Apostle says: "...knowing
this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the
lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for
the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and
murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for
sodomites" (1Tim. 1: 9,10). Saint Paul includes 'sodomites', or
homosexuals, among the murderers, the lawless and the
ungodly.
Hence, this sin was condemned in both the Old and the
New Testaments. So, can we disobey God in order to please
some sinners? Is it not better to show them the right way than
to let them lose their sanctity and be punished in eternal life? Or
let them depend on the Church making this matter lawful?
Homosexuality Is Against Health
I think that in our present day, our Lord God has given us a
grand warning in the form of AIDS. A warning to those who
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subject their bodies to such defilement. Unfortunately people
are no longer fearful, even of such a dreadful disease.
Homosexuality Is Against ManHood
How can a person who is used as a woman be called a man?
He is deprived of his manhood and is not considered to be a
man any longer.
Homosexuality Is Against the Good Name of Christianity
What may be said of Christianity in its supreme ideology?
Christianity teaches the sublime ideas of spirituality. How can
other religions have any idea about this spiritual life if they
know that there is homosexuality in the Church and that the
Church is discussing whether it is wrong or right?
Church life should be a life of holiness. A holy person is a
member of the Church, but the unholy is not a member of the
Church at all. And this is what was mentioned in the Book of
Acts, chapter 2, verse 47, where it is written: "And the Lord
added to the church daily those who were being saved". The
Lord added to the Church those who were being saved because
the Church is a congregation of Saints; an abundance of
holiness.
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Homosexuality Is Against the Holy Sacraments
What can we say about the renewal of life in Christianity if such
defilement exists inside the Church? How can we say that we
received the new life? ... the renewal of life? ... the new birth?
What kind of new birth have we received if we have such
defilement among our members? What can we say about
salvation? What kind of salvation is it? About baptism, what
kind of baptism is it? What can we say about holy Chrism when
we are faced with such defilement?
Homosexuality is against the Sacrament of Marriage, and it is
also against self-control. People who suffer homosexuality
should be ashamed. If they knew the meaning of spiritual life,
they could not confess that they are homosexuals. It is quite
inconceivable that anyone can lose their sense of shame and
openly confess to being homosexuals. It is even more
unbelievable is that such people ask for their human rights as
homosexuals.
Rights For Homosexuals
What rights are there for homosexuals? Their only right is to
be led to repentance. But to live in such defilement of the
body, in such dishonour of the body, in such abomination and
sin, and then ask for their so called human rights unthinkable!
Furthermore, being encouraged and defended by some of the
members of the Church, they ask to be ordained priesthood,
while still practising homosexuality, this is simply beyond belief!
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Homosexual Priests
What may members of the congregation say when they know
that their priest is homosexual, and that he holds the Body and
Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ?
How can a homosexual priest lead the congregation to holy life
without having repented, without having confessed, without
changing his life? If he cannot repent how can he guide others
to repentance? If he cannot control himself, how can he guide
others to such control? If he cannot enjoy the beauty of holy
life, how can he speak about holy life? If he leads a carnal
life, how can he guide others to live a spiritual life?
What will be said about the teachings of Christianity if such
abominations take place in the Church itself?
Homosexuality and Love
It is claimed that homosexuality is simply love between man and
man. No, my brothers, love should be spiritual and pure. We
love others in purity. We love others in the Spirit. And loving
others should not be against our love for God, because our
Lord Jesus Christ said ‘He who loves father, son, wife, sister, or
brother, more than Me, is not worthy of me, is not worthy to be
My disciple.’ We cannot love any other person more than our
Lord Jesus Christ. Every love which we have should be love in
the Lord. We love in the Lord, not outside, not against.
It is not love, but lust, and there is a great difference
between love and lust. The word 'love' is not suitable for such
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a relation, because in the Gospel, we say ‘God is love.’ How
can we say ‘Homosexuality is love’? It is not love, it is a
physical lust, lust of the flesh, and a lust which should be
corrected.
If a man loves another man, can he abuse the man whom he
loves? Is this love or destruction? If a man really loves another
man, can he lead this man to lose his eternity and be punished in
eternal life? Is it love to make another lose his image, the image
of God?
Homosexual by Nature
Another excuse given is that such a person is born that
way. If he is born that way, we need to heal him, to purge
him, to correct him, to pray for him, to guide him to repentance,
to cure him medically and spiritually. But not to say to him:
"Alright, we accept you as a member of the Church and give
you the Body and Blood of our Lord." It cannot be said that a
person is homosexual by nature. Surely, it is the result of a
traumatic experience in life, and this can be corrected.
We have in the history of the Church many saints who were
fornicators before being saints, before repentance, and they
were corrected. They were not homosexuals, but they were
fornicators; the same sin but not abnormal. Saint Augustine is a
good example. Saint Moses the Black is another example.
Saint Pelagia is another example, and there are many others,
and through the grace of God, through the work of pastoral
care, they were corrected. We cannot accept homosexuality,
for if we do, it means that we allow such an abomination, it
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means that we permit that person to remain in sin and not
repent. Moreover, it means that homosexuals have rights, one
of which is to be ordained as priests.
The Spiritual Way of Pleasing Others
We cannot flatter people at the expense of the
commandment of God. May I read you one or two verses
from the First Epistle to the Galatians: "For do I now persuade
men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still
pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ" (Gal. 1:
10). If 1 go on pleasing men in contradiction with the
commandment of God, then I will not be the servant of Christ.
If I want to please men in a correct way, then I should
guide them to repentance. This is the spiritual way of
pleasing others, not to let them stay in sin and perish.
What is the benefit in pleasing other if such pleasure leads
to condemnation? In the heavenly kingdom, in the kingdom of
God, no person who lives in defilement is allowed to enter. No
fornicators, nor sodomites, may enter the kingdom of our Lord,
as is clearly expressed in the teachings of Saint Paul, Saint Jude,
Saint Peter, and many others?
Once I read a book written by one of the clergymen -I do not
want to say, one of the bishops- defending homosexuality. He
began to attack Saint Paul and say that he is abnormal. Can we
please men to the extent where we speak against Apostles?
Against a person that was elected by God Himself in a
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miraculous apparition, and chosen to be the Apostle for the
Gentiles; to be our Apostle, for we were Gentiles. Is it
acceptable that we try to please men, even if it means going
against the teachings of the Lord?
I now return to the first words I said to you. I said I am happy,
I am glad, to be among the persons who are chosen to witness
to the Lord. Our Lord said: "But you shall receive power when
the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses
to Me." As for homosexuals, He said that without repentance,
they will perish. This judgement of our Lord was repeated
twice in the chapter of Saint Luke's Gospel, chapter 13, verses 3
and 5. It is written: “I tell you, no; but unless you repent you
will all likewise perish” (v. 3), and in verse 5: “I tell you, no;
but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
So, can we say to such sinners, to whom our Lord said:
"...unless you repent you will all likewise perish", ‘no, no, no,
we will find excuses for you. The Church loves you and wants
to search for excuses, so that you may remain in sin and not
perish?’ It is not within our power, I repeat, it is not within our
power to justify sins, or to please sinners. Instead, we should
be trying to guide them to repentance.
The Way to Repentance
Initially, a person who sins may be embarrassed, and cannot
confess to this abomination. However, if that person openly
declares his homosexuality, and begins to seek his rights as a
homosexual, without seeking repentance, and even goes so far
as to ask to be ordained priesthood, then this is an outrage.
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However, if we make it clear to that person that such actions
are sinful and against the will of God, then perhaps his
conscience may act against him, always condemning him and
reproaching him: ‘You should repent. You must change your
ways’.
The Authority Of Clergymen
In the Gospel of Saint Matthew, chapter 18, our Lord Jesus
Christ gave His servants, the Apostles, the priests, authority,
saying: “I say to you whatever you bind on earth will be bound
in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in
heaven” (Matt. 18: 18). Whatever you bind or loose should be
according to the Bible, in harmony with the teachings of the
Bible, in obedience to the commandments of God, but whatever
you bind or loose against the Bible will not be accepted. How?
If we read the Epistle to the Galatians, chapter 1, verses 8 and
9, we find some very fearful words. It is written: "But even if
we (the Apostles), or an angel from heaven, preach any other
Gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be
accursed' (Gal 1:8). This is also repeated in verse 9, "If anyone
preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received,
let him be accursed" (Gal. 1:9).
Our duty as Clergymen is to guide people through the
commandments of God. We have no power, nor any
authority, to give declare laws against the laws of God. So,
why did our Lord give us authority, and how can this authority
to bind and loose be explained? Perhaps we can find an
explanation in what was written in the prophecy of Malachi,
chapter 2, verse 7: "For the lips of a priest should keep
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knowledge, and people should seek the law from his mouth; for
he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts" (Mal 2:7). People
take the law of the Lord from the priest’s mouth because, when
it comes to God’s teachings, he is more knowledgeable than any
other member of the congregation. He is the teacher; the guide.
So he binds according to the law of God which he knows quite
well, and he looses according to the law of God, and never in
contradiction, as Saint Paul said: “If we, or an angel from
heaven...” As Saint Basil of Caesaria Cappadocia said: “Saint
Paul dared to anathematize angels.”
The Grave Responsibility Of The Clergy
What then should we say to people? There is a commandment
given by God in the Old Testament. It is repeated twice in the
same prophecy of Ezekiel, in chapter 3, and again in chapter 33.
May I read you some of the words said by God to Ezekiel: “Son
of man, I have made you a watchman (to watch people) for the
house of Israel; therefore hear a word from My mouth, and give
them warning from Me: When I say to the wicked, 'You shall
surely die,' and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the
wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked
man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood will require at
your hand" (Ezek. 3: 17,18).
We are pastors. How can we suffer that the blood of these
wicked persons who will perish be required from us? We
should warn them and say to them: "This way leads you to
destruction". And at the same time God says: "Yet, if you warn
the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from
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his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have
delivered your soul' (Ezek. 3: 19).
The same words are also mentioned in chapter 33, because our
Lord God wants to emphasise this point. "So you, son of man:
I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel, therefore
you shall hear a word from My mouth and warn them for Me.
When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you shall surely die!’
and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that
wicked man shall die in his iniquity,. but his blood I will
require at your hand” (Ezek. 33: 7,8).
We must fear such condemnation. We must warn the wicked
and say to them: ‘This is the way of death. If you walk
according to the flesh you will die; you should obey the
commandments of God.’ If we love our children in a spiritual
way we should guide them to repentance; we should try to
purge them, to cleanse them, to heal them, to save them, not to
justify their sins. This is not good for them nor for us. They
will perish and their blood will be required at our hands.
The following are some of the questions asked by members of
the congregation and the answers given by His Holiness:
Question 1
We repeat in the Nicene Creed, I believe in one holy
Catholic Apostolic Church". As the Catholic and Apostolic
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Church is divided, how can we claim it to be holy? How
can holiness and division go together?
Of course this is a tragedy, and for this reason we are trying to
work toward Christian unity. We are trying to be one in faith,
and one in theology and in doctrine. Our Lord God does not
accept this division because in the Gospel of Saint John chapter
10, which we call the chapter of the Good Shepherd, it is clear
that He wants the Church to be one flock, for One Shepherd,
and this Shepherd is our Lord Jesus Christ. And also in Saint
John's Gospel, chapter 17, He asks the Father for His disciples,
for the whole Church, to be one, saying: "...that they may be
one just as We are one." There is no unity more mystical than
the unity between the Father and the Son. Of course,
separation and division is not a holy matter and for this reason,
we are working for the unity of the Church.
Question 2
While we are alive, is it not possible to enjoy bodily
pleasures without hurting others, while striving for spiritual
ascendancy?
For this reason we said that this bodily pleasure, according to
your expression, is enjoyed in marriage and between male and
female, but not against nature, not against the commandment of
God. As we enjoy bodily pleasures in eating food and
delicacies, and control ourselves in the days of fasting, a person
may also enjoy bodily pleasures to a certain extent, not to be
against his spirit, not to be against the commandment of God,
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not to be against nature, not to be against purity of heart, and
many pleasures are given to us, but not abnormal pleasures.
Question 3
How can we bring healing to people of homosexual
tendency who wish to be healed of that tendency and to
walk the way of holiness? How may we help them?
The first point on which I spoke was that the Church cannot say
that their wrong way is acceptable, this is against the essence of
the teachings the Bible. We cannot pass their acts as acceptable
behaviour, and excuse them for supposedly being born that way.
Sin is sin, whatever the reasons are.
In order to help them, firstly say to them: "This is a sin. This is
an abomination", and then let them enjoy the spiritual life. A
person who tastes the sweetness of spiritual life may leave such
a way of abomination. Because people are always occupied
with worldly matters, they do not give time for prayer, for
contemplation, for spiritual songs, for reading the Bible, for
reading spiritual books, so their spirits become very weak, and
such weak spirits cannot resist temptation. If we try to
strengthen their spirits, to let them practise spiritual ways, as I
said, they get better.
Also, we must pray for them, fast for them, celebrate Holy
Masses for them, we must try to help them by using all spiritual
means. If there is a situation that requires medical treatment,
then let them try it. But, whatever the circumstances, we
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cannot justify their sins. It is not within our authority as
clergymen or pastors.
Question 4
Does the Church see the sexual desire in marriage between
husband and wife as lust or good appetite?
Saint Augustine said that it is something attractive from nature
to help the act. First marriage was for giving birth to children
and to let the world continue, but if there is nothing attractive in
such a matter, perhaps people will not have sexual intercourse.
As with food, if food is not delicious and of good appetite (I
may use appetite here for food), people will not eat and they
will die. So God put something attractive in the nature of these
matters in order that the act may be completed. But some
people who have full love for God may not practise such
matters very frequently.
There is something said by Saint Paul in the seventh chapter of
the first Epistle to the Corinthians, he said: “Do not deprive one
another except with consent for a time, that you may give
yourselves to fasting and prayer, and come together again so
that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of selfcontrol”
(1Cor. 7: 5). And at the beginning he said that when
we practise fasting we need self-control to abstain from food.
At the same time, if a person, if a husband or wife, can be away
from the other partner, in order to practise fasting and prayer in
a useful way for the spirit, it should be in consent. The two
should approve of the matter, if not, we cannot cause offence
for the other partner; this will not be "with consent".
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You cannot take everything that your body craves. Solomon,
the wisest person, said that he gave himself all kinds of pleasure,
and what was the conclusion? I will read what Solomon said:
"Whatever my eyes desired I did not keep from them. I did not
withhold my heart from any pleasure" (Eccl. 2: 10). And what
was the end? It was against him and he found that "all was
vanity and grasping for the wind" (Eccl. 2: 11). A person may
take from the pleasures of the world to a certain extent, yet selfcontrol
from time to time.
Question 5
How should we relate our Lord's assurance that the wheat
and tares will continue together until the end, to the stress
on all members of the Church being called to be saints?
Of course, the tares are not members in the Church. The wheat
are the elect and the tares are the work of the devil, as our Lord
God explained this parable in the thirteenth chapter of Saint
Matthew's Gospel, saying that the wheat is the work of God
and the tares the work of the devil.
There is sin and there is holy life. Of course, we cannot say that
the kingdom of God covers the whole world, but the work of
the Church is to have plenty of wheat and to guide the tares to
be wheat if possible. This is our duty; to correct others. But of
course our Lord Jesus Christ spoke about the tares in this
parable as the persons who will perish (not to be corrected).
But in the Church we have only wheat.
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The Church in its identity is a group of saints worshipping God
together. They are holy vessels in which the Holy Spirit works.
The definition of the Church is people who are the image of
God, who are the true sons of God, who always keep the image
of God, have communion with the Holy Spirit, and lead holy
lives. These are the true members of the Church; tares are not
the true members of the Church.
Question 6
Can we suggest that different branches of one whole may
not be evil but that they may all be partakers of God's
truth?
Of course we should distinguish between evil and good. There
are many kinds of good ways, as for example, marriage and
virginity. They are two holy ways which guide to God. But we
cannot say that chastity and fornication are two ways which
guide to God. Of course not. There may be a kind of variety
but inside holiness and not outside holiness, and this is
acceptable.
For this reason we have different branches in the holy Church,
as for example when Saint Paul spoke about the gifts of the
Holy Spirit in chapter 12 of the First Epistle to the Corinthians.
He said there are different gifts but the Spirit is one. In the
Church there are Apostles, there are teachers, there are priests,
there are prophets, there are ordinary persons. All these may be
different in rank, but all of them are holy.
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You say "may all be partakers of God's truth". Partakers of
God's truth inside holiness and not outside holiness. Our Lord
God said that the good earth may give thirty, sixty and one
hundred. These are degrees, but all of them are fruitful and
good, although they vary. But as for the plants which were
surrounded by thorns and withered away, we cannot say they
were good, nor was the land from which the seeds were taken
by sparrows.
Question 7
If a homosexual goes to the church and repents and
abstains from homosexual activity, how is he viewed in the
eyes of God if desires about men remain?
I want to say that sometimes repentance may take steps. The
first step of repentance is to abstain from the action of sin.
Sometimes the person abstains from the action of sin and at the
same time still has the desire. He is now clean in flesh but not
clean in spirit.
The second step is to change his mind and change his desires.
In the Epistle to the Romans, chapter 12, the Apostle says: "I
beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that
you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to
God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be
conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of
your mind" (Rom. 12: 1). A person may have another concept,
another idea, another way of thinking about the world. He does
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not look at sin as pleasure but as defilement. He may change
his mind, and in changing his mind he may change his desires
also. It may take steps.
The first step of repentance is to leave sin, not to do it. But
the perfection of repentance is to hate sin, and sin will not
be suitable for the person's new nature in our Lord Jesus
Christ.
Our great teacher Saint John the Apostle said that the son of
God cannot sin: cannot, because he is the son of God. His
nature has changed. This is the renewal of life. As pastors,
our work is to guide people toward the renewal of their life,
to stress on a new point, to give them practice in spiritual life.
Day by day they find spiritual life not only acceptable but also
favourable and they find their pleasure in God, their
pleasure in spiritual life.

Today at 09:25 AM leecappella said this in Post #10 

Apollo Belvedre:

To divide the law within its existence still makes no sense to me. There are obviously some things in the law that are not sins in and of themselves (ie. sewing two kinds of seeds together in one field, wearing two types of fabrics at the same time, etc.) and some things that are (adultery, incest, etc.), but even so, new testament references to the law view it all as one single unit. Paul makes it clear that the law served like a schoolmaster at one time, but he advocates that we are "no longer under a schoolmaster". The conclusion is clear to me. Also, the bible states that if anyone breaks one point of the law, he/she is guilty of breaking all. So, it makes sense to me that if one aspect of the law is disregarded (ie. Peter's vision of eating unclean meats that the law prohibited;Jesus' reference to what goes in one's mouth does not defile a person, etc.) then ALL other aspects of the law do not apply as well. Ofcourse, there are those things that are a sin in and of themselves. To discern what those things are requires a pesonal relationship with God and the guidance of the Spirit.

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First, I just wanted to let you know that the Hebrew word for "mankind" used in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 is the same word used in Genesis 1:27 where it says, "So God created man in his own image..."  Therefore I don't believe there is as much of a discrepancy in the definition of terms as you make there out to be.

Second, you apparantly don't understand what I mean by categories of the Law.  Yes the law is a whole, I'm not disputing that.  And I'm no more separating it by categorizing the laws than you are by classifying them as "sins in and of themselves", and those that are not.  I'm only saying that each law is significant in different respects.  Your example of sewing two types of seeds together at one time, or wearing two types of fabrics would fall under the category of Civil, since they pertained to Israel as a nation.  Yet Jesus died for Jew and Gentile alike, therefore we need not obey this law verbatum, yet it is not as obsolete as you make it sound.  The sentiment behind laws distinguishing Israel from its neighboring nations were so God's people would not be influenced by un-Godly customs and be led astray.  The same sentiment of distinguishing God's people can be found in the New Testament; Romans 16:17 ...mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned and avoid them; 2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers.  For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?  And what communion hath light with darkness?  Civil and Ceremonial laws of the Old Testament are no longer in effect, yet are not principley obsolete.  Those that express a moral assertion are still to be observed because they are forever binding (ie. adulterey, incest, inappropriate behavior with animals, homosexuality, etc).   

Today at 10:24 AM fragmentsofdreams said this in Post #11

Is it then quite likely that other verses are idioms that could cause confusion?

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I don't see how Leviticus 18:22/20:13 could be interpreted idiomatically.  Both are candid and concise.  

Today at 04:33 PM fragmentsofdreams said this in Post #19



You are confusing lust and attraction. A person can be sexually attracted to someone without lusting.

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That's not the point I was trying to make.  You stated, "a homosexual does not necessarily need to have ever had homosexual sex."  I only meant to clarify that it wouldn't necessarily matter, their behavior would still be considered homosexual.  As Christians the Bible gives us two options, we may either fall in love and marry a person of the opposite sex (Gen 2:24), or remain single and celibate (Cor 7:8).