The pre-tribulation rapture

Biblewriter said:

Actually, this statement by Ice showed me how little he actually knew about the subject.
I am the only person I know about who has actually analyzed everything Irenaeus said about the timing of end time events. In my book, I clearly demonstrate why his conclusion was incorrect. And my comments were made in answer to his erroneous statement, although I did not mention either him or his statement.

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jgr said:

Who else of recognized standing in the dispensational community endorses your claims over Ice's?

Names, times, and quotes, please.

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No response, so no endorsement.

You did make a valiant effort.

jgr said:

No response, so no endorsement.

You did make a valiant effort.

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Actually, my book is receiving strong endorsement from various quarters.

Biblewriter said:

Actually, my book is receiving strong endorsement from various quarters.

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How many times is the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, mentioned in your new book?

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
(NKJV)

The New Covenant: Bob George
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Biblewriter said:

Further cavil is nothing but manifest dishonesty.

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Former Dispensationalist, Dr. Chuck Baldwin, reveals how he has been attacked by Dispensationalists after he abandoned the Two Peoples of God doctrine.



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BABerean2 said:

Former Dispensationalist, Dr. Chuck Baldwin, reveals how he has been attacked by Dispensationalists after he abandoned the Two Peoples of God doctrine.

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As I said...

Biblewriter said:

I have addressed this argument in detail in the following threads:

Ancient teaching of a rapture before the great tribulation.
Dispensationalist Only - Ancient teaching of a rapture before the great tribulation.


A Scriptural Precedent A Scriptural Precedent

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The following passages, as presented by a writer who supports the theory that the writings of the early Church supports a pre-trib. rapture, are critiqued. He uses the writings of Irenaeus, Victorinus and Pseudo-Ephraem, to support his theory.


1)“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1.)


Take careful note of this portion of the passage:

“For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”


The righteous mentioned here, are going to encounter some contest which they will overcome in order to be crowned with incorruption. What is this contest? The preceding statement points to the contest and says:


“There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”

If this is the last contest of the righteous then how can this be supportive of a pre-trib. rapture?

The sudden catching up of the Church can only take place after the “last contest” which is the, “tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”


A better understanding of this would be assisted by seeing what was written before the statement:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven,”


However so far no pre-trib. rapture here.


Another passage used in the endeavour:


2)“ “For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule;” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 35, paragraph 1.)”

The following comments also accompanied this passage:

“Here we see this same ancient writer just as explicitly saying that “the resurrection of the just” “takes place after the coming of Antichrist.” On the surface, this would seem to flatly contradict his other statement. But this is not the case. First, we need to notice that Irenaeus did not say that “the resurrection of the just” takes place after the reign of Antichrist.He only said it “takes place after the coming of Antichrist,and the destruction of all nations under his rule.””


The second statement from Irenaeus is actually in perfect accord with the first statement above and is equally not supportive of the pre-trib. view. One of the great tenets of the pre-trib. teaching is that Christians will not see Anti-christ and that he can only come to the fore when the Church and the Holy Spirit associated with it, are removed from the earth. Hence again this is contrary to the pre-trib. belief .Careful consideration should be taken concerning who it is that destroys the nations under the rule of Anti-christ as this may put another nail in the coffin of the pre-trib. view.


To complete the point, the following comment is made followed by the third passage from Irenaeus and says:


“To see the significance of this, we need to consider another statement from this same ancient document:

3)“But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 30, paragraph 4.)” ”


A further comment made, to support the writer’s argument was:

“Here we find first, a distinct statement that Antichrist would reign for three years and six months. But also a distinct statement that this three years and six months would be after “this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world.” Thus we see that Irenaeus placing “the resurrection of the just” “after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule,” was not saying the rapture would be after the three and a half year reign of Antichrist. Rather, he placed the rapture at the beginning of that three and a half year reign. That is, he was saying that the time of “tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be” was the three and a half year reign of Antichrist.”


First of all,this does the pre-trib. view no good as the primary tenet of the doctrine is that it occurs prior to the coming/reign of Anti-christ and prior to the beginning of the tribulation which lasts seven years. Secondly the writer conflates the terms, “Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world”, and, “the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule,”. The two are not the same. One refers to the actions of Anti-christ in subduing his opponents as was stated in another quote from Irenaeus:

4)“It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 26, paragraph 1.)

This apparently is a commentary by Irenaeus on Daniel 7, and Revelation 17.

The destruction of nations under the rule of Anti-christ could not be referring to the actions of the Anti-christ,as how and why would he destroy nations under his rule? This is actually a reference to what Christ would do at His coming. As is written here:

“Revelation 19:
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat uponhim was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses,clothed in fine linen,white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he
should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


This is in agreement with the statement made initially that:


“For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule;” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 35, paragraph 1.)”


Revelation 20 goes on to show the resurrection of the just after the coming of Anti-christ and after the Lord in His coming destroys the nations previously ruled by Anti-christ.



Revelation 20:
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and
reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Therefore the above argument, cannot be used in support of the pre-trib. view, as was admitted by the same writer:

“But what they taught was actually what today would be called a mid-tribulation rapture.”

And:

“Irenaeus placed this resurrection after the coming of the Antichrist, but before he began his three and a half year reign of terror. That made him actually a mid tribber by modern standards. but as he only believed in a three and a half year "great tribulation," he was a pre-tribber by his standard.”

No pre-trib. rapture here either.

To be continued.

Biblewriter said:

I have addressed this argument in detail in the following threads:

Ancient teaching of a rapture before the great tribulation.
Dispensationalist Only - Ancient teaching of a rapture before the great tribulation.


A Scriptural Precedent A Scriptural Precedent

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Biblewriter said:

I have addressed this argument in detail in the following threads:

Ancient teaching of a rapture before the great tribulation.
Dispensationalist Only - Ancient teaching of a rapture before the great tribulation.


A Scriptural Precedent A Scriptural Precedent

Click to expand...

The attempt to find support for the false dichotomy continued as the writer claims:

“Now some will want to discount any claim that Irenaeus was intentionally using well selected terminology in these statements. But he used the same precision in his comments about recognizing the Antichrist when he appeared. For, as we have already noticed, when he was speaking of true believers he said “But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him.” But when he was speaking of men who might be deceived by the Antichrist, he stuck strictly with the scriptural terminology by referring to them as “those,” “these,” “they,” and “them,” as we see in the following statements:”

It is clear, even from this small excerpt quoted by the writer attempting to prove that Irenaeus wrote about a pre-trib. rapture, that Irenaeus believed no such thing. As was said before one of the primary tenets of the doctrine is that the Church does not even have to consider the identity of Anti-christ, since they will not be around when he appears. The fact that Irenaeus is contemplating identifying the Anti-christ so, “we”, may avoid him is proof that the Church will still be around when he appears.So who are the persons referred to as, “those,” “these,” “they,” and “them,”?

8)““Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 30, end of paragraph 1)”

The fact that Irenaeus refers to others who may be deceived by the events and persons of that time,does not preclude the Church from being present. The apostle Paul wrote of similar events and the resulting deception.

2Thessalonians 2:
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure In unrighteousness.


This is in contrast to the saints who continued in the truth and who will not be deceived by the coming one.


2Thessalonians 2:
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

See also Matthew 24:21-51.In this passage a clear demarcation is made between the saints and those who are to feel the wrath of God as He judges those who are not His.

Nothing presented by the writer shows that Irenaeus was supporting a pre-trib.rapture. The writer has even admitted that at best this is a mid-trib. view. This was simply a desperate attempt to find support for a theory, that is not taught in the scriptures, nor in writings that are close to the times the scriptures were written.

This attempt, like that of promoting the Pseudo- Ephraem writings as being pre-trib., has failed miserably.

The writer continues on his quixotic quest and turns to the writings of Victorinus. He says:

“We come now to Victorinus, who is thought to have written the following sometime around the year 240 A.D.

Commentary on the Apocalypse 6:14:

1)“ “ ‘And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled way, that is, that the Church shall be taken away.’ ‘And the mountain and the islands were moved from their places." Mountains and islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places;that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid the persecution." ”

There is insufficient material here to even state that the timing, of the “Church shall be taken away”, is pre-trib. There is however evidence from the scriptures which show it could not be pre-trib. As the statement is a commentary on,Revelation 6:14,a look at that passage reveals that the event described occurs just at the time the Lord comes to pour out His wrath upon the earth.(Revelation 6:17) This is the event portrayed in Revelation 19:11-21.This occurs when the

Anti-christ is present and hence the"Church shall be taken away", cannot have occurred in the manner prescribed by the pre-trib. doctrine.

The writer continues:

“Again, Victorinus said:

Commentary on the Apocalypse 15:1:

2)“ ‘And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.’ For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.” ”

Revelation 15:
1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Again the paucity of information and lack of context around this statement should cause the honest reader to be cautious about any conclusions about this passage.

What does, “gone out of the midst ‘, mean? When does this take place? How long does it take for the plagues to be poured out? Seven years, three and a half years or just a moment?

Again the scriptures show that persons were still being warned to watch for the coming of the Lord during the pouring out of the last plagues using the same terminology as is used by the apostle Paul in I Thessalonians 5:1-6.Read it here:


Rev 16:
12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon,and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments,lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

For whom would this warning be, if the church had been raptured before this time? The meaning of the Victorinus passages is doubtful but the scriptures are clear. The scripture being commented on by Victorinus, when examined in its entirety, does not support a pre-trib. rapture.


The writer goes on to comment on the writings of one called Pseudo-Ephraem. The failure of the passage in its entirety as support for a pre-trib. rapture is discussed here.Pseudo-Ephraem 1

The possible meaning of the passage commonly claimed to be pre-trib. is discussed here.Pseudo-Ephraem 2

Apart from the objections expressed in the above it is also obvious that the writer has exhibited inconsistency in his arguments. In discussing the counter claims to his arguments he writes:

“But this argument is based on another error. These people interpret every reference to people turning to God to mean the church. But those who believe that the rapture will be before the tribulation have always taught that some will repent and turn to God after the church has been removed. We remember that Irenaeus had referred to these with the words that this tribulation “is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

Here he claims not every mention of God’s people is a reference to the church and so the other passages in Pseudo-Ephraem which denies the pre-trib. position,because Godly people are mentioned as going through tribulations,are references to,“tribulation saints” or ‘tribulation righteous”. So there are two sets of Godly people in the writing, some who are there during the times of trouble(saints, righteous)and others who are taken away.(church, we)

Hence he claims:

“It would be difficult to make a more clear statement of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture.”

This in relation to the passage in the Pseudo-Ephraem writing which says:

“For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”


He would now claim this is the church but previously said:

“We remember that Irenaeus used this same term in speaking of the beginning of the kingdom, saying, “bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom.” He also used a second term for these faithful ones during that time, calling them “saints” in the following statements:”

And also:

“We need to notice that both of these statements are about the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, and thus speak of a time after Irenaeus placed the “resurrection of the just.” And in these statements, he changed the words “the church,” or “we,” to “the saints.” ”


Hence when it suits him, “saints”,do not refer to the church but to those who remain after the pre-trib. rapture. However now it does refer to the church, in order for him to claim the passage in Pseudo-Ephraem is a reference to the church being raptured before the tribulation. This type of inconsistency is a sign of one attempting to win an argument at all cost and without due regard for the truth. This is a common feature of the arguments used to defend the pre-trib. doctrine.

A further point: The passage in question is not from Pseudo-Ephraem, but from some other obscure and questionable source. I have yet to have found any reference to the "Pseudo-Ephraem" quoted by Dispensationalists before a Latin quotation in a German work from the 1800s.

The authentic Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem is an account of the conflict between the Byzantine Empire and Muslim Caliphate in the late first millennium.

-CryptoLutheran

I will only even bother to answer one of these recent cavils, as the rest have already been answered by the very text they are attacking. The only one of these that even deserves an answer it the claim that the words of Irenaeus that the great tribulation is "the last contest of the righteous" are proof that he was saying that the church would still be here during that "last contest of the righteous."

Foes of the pre-trib doctrine always hail this as proof that he was not speaking of a pre-trib rapture. But this presents no problem whatsoever for any pre-tribber with whom I have ever discussed this. That is because standard pre-trib doctrine has always included the concept that, after the rapture, others would again turn to Christ. These have always been referred to by pre0tribbers as either "the righteous" or "tribulation saints." But never as part of "the church."

So this is nothing but a more or less standard statement for a pre-tribber to make, which makes this clause zero problem for anyone who believes in a pre-tribulation rapture.

Forgive me but.. getting lost in this "debunking" thing.. going back and forth Then posting links to some man what some man said. Then as if studying for 1-50 years knowing the Greek/Hebrew make you some expert. In this WORLD yes. In the Fathers? No "let God be true, but every man a liar". Why? Because your talking about something supernatural.. something in a realm MOST if not all do not know about..see or understand. As Christ said to one.. if you cant understand earthy things.. how can you understand heavenly things?

Now for me searching I have found many that talked about Caught up before the 7year tribulation. Now I am wise enough that even if this was taught about.. spoken of in 100ad.. so what? Shows some believed Christ could come before the tribulation. Again so what? For me that is not what is written. There is verse for PRE MID POST tribulation.

Again people posting links to people that preach what they agree with and then say thats proof? See for ME I have to stick to what IS written. Even though I read His word and come away with Christ taking me before...but.. I can not prove it nor more then I can prove I will be taken at the end. Its NOT IN THE WORD! All you get is the classic "what JESUS what that verse really means is really saying".

People focus on a day a time they were not promised. You were given NOW this moment. So how do we live in it? Some try to preach their own personal belief as fact. You have no clue if your going to be living in the next 5 min. Why not live for Him now..why not expect Him right now? And doing so you will NEVER miss Him.. a preacher gone now.. that said.. I believe post trib.. BUT...if Christ comes PRE TRIB.. I AM READY! AMEN! See he was wise enough to know all 3 PRE MID POST are not in the word of God.. its NOW that matters

And what post believers leave out is what that time is going to be like. They seem to talk about .. US America or the like never really having any kind of tribulation and .. like we must have it to prove we LOVE JESUS. WOW my mom and all those that have died are in heaven. WOW how wonderful blessed THEY never had to prove anything huh..

But what about right now those in IRAQ IRAN CHINA N KOREA that suffer die have things happen I cant write here.. WHO is going over there and tell them. " a everything you have suffered up to know? Its NOTHING like what is coming.. there is NO HOPE of Christ coming to get you.. you WILL suffer so much worse then anything that has come before" NO ONE seems to talk about this..

See if you cant live for Him now..you wont during the 7 year trib. Something that has ALL power over the lawless one..gee who has that power right now? When that is taken out of the way THEN the lawless one came come out and do lying wonders..

All this.. toss it out.. What I get is.. I have this moment.. I live for Him NOW! I am ready looking up for right NOW Is when He is coming. Not here to preach MY personal view as FACT for its not.. ALL the info ANY man has .. we all have access to. Be it Graham Brown Stone on and on.. all are just men of this world and read what we can and then give you what they personal belief.. SOME tell is as FACT of which is not. Your not right.. only HE is.. and He is coming.. as a thief to some. See He is not a thief.. but..He is coming to take what is HIS to some it will be as a thief.. they never saw it.. dont believe.. would they go?

Blade said:

Forgive me but.. getting lost in this "debunking" thing.. going back and forth Then posting links to some man what some man said. Then as if studying for 1-50 years knowing the Greek/Hebrew make you some expert. In this WORLD yes. In the Fathers? No "let God be true, but every man a liar". Why? Because your talking about something supernatural.. something in a realm MOST if not all do not know about..see or understand. As Christ said to one.. if you cant understand earthy things.. how can you understand heavenly things?

Now for me searching I have found many that talked about Caught up before the 7year tribulation. Now I am wise enough that even if this was taught about.. spoken of in 100ad.. so what? Shows some believed Christ could come before the tribulation. Again so what? For me that is not what is written. There is verse for PRE MID POST tribulation.

Again people posting links to people that preach what they agree with and then say thats proof? See for ME I have to stick to what IS written. Even though I read His word and come away with Christ taking me before...but.. I can not prove it nor more then I can prove I will be taken at the end. Its NOT IN THE WORD! All you get is the classic "what JESUS what that verse really means is really saying".

People focus on a day a time they were not promised. You were given NOW this moment. So how do we live in it? Some try to preach their own personal belief as fact. You have no clue if your going to be living in the next 5 min. Why not live for Him now..why not expect Him right now? And doing so you will NEVER miss Him.. a preacher gone now.. that said.. I believe post trib.. BUT...if Christ comes PRE TRIB.. I AM READY! AMEN! See he was wise enough to know all 3 PRE MID POST are not in the word of God.. its NOW that matters

And what post believers leave out is what that time is going to be like. They seem to talk about .. US America or the like never really having any kind of tribulation and .. like we must have it to prove we LOVE JESUS. WOW my mom and all those that have died are in heaven. WOW how wonderful blessed THEY never had to prove anything huh..

But what about right now those in IRAQ IRAN CHINA N KOREA that suffer die have things happen I cant write here.. WHO is going over there and tell them. " a everything you have suffered up to know? Its NOTHING like what is coming.. there is NO HOPE of Christ coming to get you.. you WILL suffer so much worse then anything that has come before" NO ONE seems to talk about this..

See if you cant live for Him now..you wont during the 7 year trib. Something that has ALL power over the lawless one..gee who has that power right now? When that is taken out of the way THEN the lawless one came come out and do lying wonders..

All this.. toss it out.. What I get is.. I have this moment.. I live for Him NOW! I am ready looking up for right NOW Is when He is coming. Not here to preach MY personal view as FACT for its not.. ALL the info ANY man has .. we all have access to. Be it Graham Brown Stone on and on.. all are just men of this world and read what we can and then give you what they personal belief.. SOME tell is as FACT of which is not. Your not right.. only HE is.. and He is coming.. as a thief to some. See He is not a thief.. but..He is coming to take what is HIS to some it will be as a thief.. they never saw it.. dont believe.. would they go?

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I agree with your sentiments. The ONLY reason I cite what the so-called "Fathers" said is to disprove the lie that pre-trib could not even possibly be true because it was never taught before 1830 or so, as well as the two associated lies that pre-trib could not even possibly be true because it was "invented" by one or the other of two completely different evil people. One of the two alleged evil "inventors" of this doctrine was supposedly a Satanist from the 1800s and the other a Jesuit from the 1700s. But as the doctrine itself is thousands of years older than them, neither one of these, nor the commonly claimed "inventor" of the doctrine, J. N, Darby of the 1800s, could even possibly have originated the doctrine.

Biblewriter said:

These have always been referred to by pre0tribbers as either "the righteous" or "tribulation saints." But never as part of "the church."

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Not here.

And while these things were taking place, his wife remained in [the territory of] Sodore, no longer corruptible flesh, but a pillar of salt which endures for ever;(9) and by those natural processes(10) which appertain to the human race, indicating that the Church also, which is the salt of the earth,(11) has been left behind within the confines of the earth, and subject to human sufferings; and while entire members are often taken away from it, the pillar of salt still endures,(12) thus typifying the foundation of the faith which maketh strong, and sends forward, children to their Father.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 31, Paragraph 3

Irenaeus used the expression “left behind” to refer to the Church and its continuation on earth, in direct contradiction to pretrib's ascription of the expression to unbelievers. He further declared it to be subject to human sufferings, associated in Scripture with tribulation (1 Thess. 3:4).


Not here.

For all the righteous possess the sacerdotal rank.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 8, Paragraph 3

Sacerdotal is defined as “relating to priests or the priesthood; priestly”; an obvious reference to the priesthood of all true believers in Christ (1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 1:6), i.e. all the righteous of all time. It is not confined to "tribulation saints".


Not here.

It is easy to prove from the very words of the Lord, that He acknowledges one Father and Creator of the world, and Fashioner of man, who was proclaimed by the law and the prophets, while He knows no other, and that this One is really God over all; and that He teaches that that adoption of sons pertaining to the Father, which is eternal life, takes place through Himself, conferring it [as He does] on all the righteous.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapter 11, Paragraph 1

The adoption of sons (Galatians 4:5) is descriptive of all true believers in Christ, i.e. all the righteous of all time. It is not confined to "tribulation saints".


It is evident that Irenaeus was no pretribber.

Biblewriter said:

I will only even bother to answer one of these recent cavils, as the rest have already been answered by the very text they are attacking. The only one of these that even deserves an answer it the claim that the words of Irenaeus that the great tribulation is "the last contest of the righteous" are proof that he was saying that the church would still be here during that "last contest of the righteous."

Foes of the pre-trib doctrine always hail this as proof that he was not speaking of a pre-trib rapture. But this presents no problem whatsoever for any pre-tribber with whom I have ever discussed this. That is because standard pre-trib doctrine has always included the concept that, after the rapture, others would again turn to Christ. These have always been referred to by pre0tribbers as either "the righteous" or "tribulation saints." But never as part of "the church."

So this is nothing but a more or less standard statement for a pre-tribber to make, which makes this clause zero problem for anyone who believes in a pre-tribulation rapture.

Click to expand...

The big problem is that your premise and that of others who share your belief is false. There is no division of believers into, “church”, “tribulation saints”, “righteous”, or any other grouping you may seek to introduce to support your falsehood.


Scripture, even as was presented, denies the dichotomy you try to create. As was shown before:

"The Church is referred to as saints:

1Corinthians 1:
2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

2Corinthians 1:
1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Ephesians1:
1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

The saints are in Christ and are the body of Christ:

Ephesians4:
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Colossians1:
2To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

Your claim that the words are used differently because they refer to different types of believers is clearly proven to be false.

Even when the very writings, you use, deny this dichotomy, you ignore this fact and continue to promote the falsehood.This leads me to believe,you are not just mistaken but you are also not completely candid in your arguments.

Previously you ascribe the word, “saints” to being used for those left after the rapture had taken place. You said:

“We need to notice that both of these statements are about the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, and thus speak of a time after Irenaeus placed the “resurrection of the just.” And in these statements, he changed the words “the church,” or “we,” to “the saints.” ”

So according to the theory, the word, “saints” is a reference to, “tribulation saints” i.e. Those left after the pre-trib. rapture.

Now when the favourite passage of pre-tribbers in Pseudo-Ephraem is presented we see something which should relieve you of your false theory. It says:

“For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

The word church is not used to describe the believers here,the word used is, “SAINTS”, and hence there is no change as you falsely claim from, “the church,” or “we,” to “the saints”, because of the pre-trib. rapture taking place. The words are used interchangeably for all believers at all times in the new covenant.

Your treatment of this passage and your response to the illuminating of this inconsistency is cause for concern and leads one to wonder about if you are completely candid in discussing the scriptures and your views.

Your treatment of the cavil you choose to respond to is also cause for concern as it reveals a lack of basic comprehension skills. You wrote:

“The only one of these that even deserves an answer it the claim that the words of Irenaeus that the great tribulation is "the last contest of the righteous" are proof that he was saying that the church would still be here during that "last contest of the righteous."”

Your contention is that,the word righteous refers to those left after the pre-trib. rapture and who come to faith at that time. Hence you wrote:

“Foes of the pre-trib doctrine always hail this as proof that he was not speaking of a pre-trib rapture. But this presents no problem whatsoever for any pre-tribber with whom I have ever discussed this. That is because standard pre-trib doctrine has always included the concept that, after the rapture, others would again turn to Christ.”

The simple reading and understanding denies your claim. Read it again:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1.)


The church is caught up from what will befall the nations which did not return thanks to their Maker, nor beheld the light of truth, etc. As was written previously, the words before, “Those nations”, could shed more light on what this is. The explanation of this however, also would most likely be as was explained in the examination of the Pseudo-Ephraem passage embraced by pre-tribbers. As was written then:

“It is after the advent of the wicked one that the coming Lord resurrects the saints and not before in a rapture prior to the son of perdition/Antichrist.It will be confusion directed at the enemies of Christ which Christians shall escape from as is written:

2Thessalonians 1:
3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

While the saints do suffer persecutions and tribulations in the world prior to the coming of the Lord they will escape the confusion and tribulation which results from the Lord carrying out judgement and taking vengeance on those who knew Him not when He comes. This is what Ephraim was most likely referring to in light of the context above.”

It is this event that the church will be suddenly caught up from. However the church i.e. the righteous will suffer persecution and tribulation,before this happens, which will be, “the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption”.

The fact is,the righteous is a reference to the church and it is the tribulation that is to come which will be the last contest of the church/righteous.Hence this denies a primary teaching of the pre-trib. rapture and hence this is a huge problem for the doctrine.

Biblewriter said:

I agree with your sentiments. The ONLY reason I cite what the so-called "Fathers" said is to disprove the lie that pre-trib could not even possibly be true because it was never taught before 1830 or so,

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You have proven nothing with what you have presented so far.All you have shown is a lack of understanding where the scriptures are concerned and also a lack of understanding where the writings you use are concerned.

jgr said:

Not here.

And while these things were taking place, his wife remained in [the territory of] Sodore, no longer corruptible flesh, but a pillar of salt which endures for ever;(9) and by those natural processes(10) which appertain to the human race, indicating that the Church also, which is the salt of the earth,(11) has been left behind within the confines of the earth, and subject to human sufferings; and while entire members are often taken away from it, the pillar of salt still endures,(12) thus typifying the foundation of the faith which maketh strong, and sends forward, children to their Father.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 31, Paragraph 3

Irenaeus used the expression “left behind” to refer to the Church and its continuation on earth, in direct contradiction to pretrib's ascription of the expression to unbelievers. He further declared it to be subject to human sufferings, associated in Scripture with tribulation (1 Thess. 3:4).


Not here.

For all the righteous possess the sacerdotal rank.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 8, Paragraph 3

Sacerdotal is defined as “relating to priests or the priesthood; priestly”; an obvious reference to the priesthood of all true believers in Christ (1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 1:6), i.e. all the righteous of all time. It is not confined to "tribulation saints".


Not here.

It is easy to prove from the very words of the Lord, that He acknowledges one Father and Creator of the world, and Fashioner of man, who was proclaimed by the law and the prophets, while He knows no other, and that this One is really God over all; and that He teaches that that adoption of sons pertaining to the Father, which is eternal life, takes place through Himself, conferring it [as He does] on all the righteous.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapter 11, Paragraph 1

The adoption of sons (Galatians 4:5) is descriptive of all true believers in Christ, i.e. all the righteous of all time. It is not confined to "tribulation saints".


It is evident that Irenaeus was no pretribber.

Click to expand...

In none of these places was Irenaeus even speaking of either end time prophecy or of the people going through end time events. So your quotations have zero bearing on the question of when Ifrenaeus thought the rapture would occur.

safswan said:

You have proven noting with what you have presented so far.All you have shown is a lack of understanding where the scriptures are concerned and also a lack of understanding where the writings you use are concerned.

Click to expand...

You have clearly demonstrated that you have so little concept of the doctrine you are fighting that I am not even going to bother to answer you.

Biblewriter said:

You have clearly demonstrated that you have so little concept of the doctrine you are fighting that I am not even going to bother to answer you.

Click to expand...

You have ignored what the scriptures say about how the words, "church", "saints", etc. are used and have invented a theory to suit your doctrine.

You have ignored the exposure of your double standard and inconsistency in your claims about the use of the words,"saint" and "church" in the writings you examined.

You have ignored the exposure of your misunderstanding of the said writings and fact that none support the pre-trib. theory.

You have ignored even your own admission that at best Irenaeus was mid-trib. and not pre-trib.

What is clear,is your failure to address the exposure of your deception.Never expected you to do anything to address the conundrum you find yourself in.As the scriptures say:

Ecclesiastes10:
1Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour: so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom and honour.

However it would be best for you to just repent of your folly .

Biblewriter said:

In none of these places was Irenaeus even speaking of either end time prophecy or of the people going through end time events. So your quotations have zero bearing on the question of when Ifrenaeus thought the rapture would occur.

Click to expand...

You claim that Irenaeus' use of the expression “the righteous” is confined to the “tribulation saints”, who are associated only with end time prophecy and events.

Therefore, if Irenaeus was not “even speaking of either end time prophecy or of the people going through end time events” in the cited excerpts, then why in the cited excerpts did he use the expression "the righteous", which you've claimed is confined to the "tribulation saints", who are associated only with end time prophecy and events?

Evidently he was including end time prophecy and events.

But he was not confining "the righteous" to only that and those, as evidenced by his references to "all the righteous".

safswan said:

You have ignored what the scriptures say about how the words, "church", "saints", etc. are used and have invented a theory to suit your doctrine.

You have ignored the exposure of your double standard and inconsistency in your claims about the use of the words,"saint" and "church" in the writings you examined.

You have ignored the exposure of your misunderstanding of the said writings and fact that none support the pre-trib. theory.

You have ignored even your own admission that at best Irenaeus was mid-trib. and not pre-trib.

What is clear,is your failure to address the exposure of your deception.Never expected you to do anything to address the conundrum you find yourself in.As the scriptures say:

Ecclesiastes10:
1Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour: so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom and honour.

However it would be best for you to just repent of your folly .

Click to expand...

Your pretended "exposure" was so laughable that I did not, and will not, even bother to answer it.