Who are you worshiping???

dlamberth said:

Symbolically Christians very much are drinking blood and eating flesh. Just as kissing a black rock is a symbolic gesture.

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Not true. Christians are very much eating bread (or a cracker) and drinking the cup. (wine or grape juice) Which symbolize the body broken for us and the blood shed on our behalf.

dlamberth said:

I personally believe that the Heart of all spiritual teaching is simple. Be Love. Be Peace. Be Harmony. Be compassion. And Be Joy. Everything else beyond that is just stuff.

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That's all great but how does that restore our broken relationship with the creator?

Saint Steven said:

That's all great but how does that restore our broken relationship with the creator?

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I don't know if it's our relationship with God that's broken so much as it's our awareness of the Divine all around us. That part is broken just as is the Sacredness of the Earth that we Human Beings once knew and experienced as a basic aspect of Human life.

dlamberth said:

I don't know if it's our relationship with God that's broken so much as it's our awareness of the Divine all around us. That part is broken just as is the Sacredness of the Earth that we Human Beings once knew and experienced as a basic aspect of Human life.

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Are you able to separate the creator from his creation?

Jesus inferred that he was God. What do you make of that?

Carl Emerson said:

Not so - stick to the facts. Christians take bread and wine to remember Jesus as He instructed. Millions of Muslims take pilgrimage to kiss a black stone which is considered the centre of the Islamic cosmos, and the irony is, that many believe the tradition was established to end all idolatry!!!

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Allow me to play "the devil's advocate" for a moments here.
It seems that both sides of this argument are making conclusions that the specific adherents deny. Perhaps we should work from the position of respecting the claims of all these religions rather than making claims against them that they flatly deny.

Muslims do not claim to be worshiping an idol when they kiss the black stone.
Catholics do not claim to be worshiping artifacts and bowing to statues as idols.
Christians do not claim to eat flesh and drink blood.

Let's focus on the real issues here.

Saint Steven said:

Are you able to separate the creator from his creation?

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No.

Jesus inferred that he was God. What do you make of that?

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I don't believe that Jesus was talking about himself as being "God". What I believe is much bigger and much more inclusive of the whole Universe. So much so that I experience God as being inherent in Life itself, from the smallest atomic particle to the largest cosmic from. And even Consciousness itSelf. It's that Life force of everything that bubbled up in Jesus.

Carl Emerson said:

Good try again - Jesus was raised from the dead in the Flesh.
If the same Spirit was behind all messengers they would agree. Jesus says He is the only way to salvation I dont see any other 'messangers' agreeing to that.

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Yet we see others of other spiritual traditions who live just as much in the Grace and life in God as does any Christian. That's an interesting mystery to contemplate.

Saint Steven said:

Not true. Christians are very much eating bread (or a cracker) and drinking the cup. (wine or grape juice) Which symbolize the body broken for us and the blood shed on our behalf.

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Your correct of course. What I was attempting to do is by using a false analogy show the falsehood of the OP.

Saint Steven said:

That's all great but how does that restore our broken relationship with the creator?

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If we conclude that God underpins all life and sustains that life then he creates functionality on a micro level, thus it is deemed 'good'. On a macro level what underpins our lives as humans and creates functionality is love, compassion, empathy. service to others, peace and joy. Thus it is deemed 'good' and it creates functionality. When the micro and macro align the relationships is restored, it is in harmony. That can happen individually and/or as a collective.
When Jesus said he was God I believe he was referring to what he was creating with in a selfless state. He mirrored God sustaining life and creating functionality on human level. He was the son to the father, they became one.

dlamberth said:

I don't believe that Jesus was talking about himself as being "God".

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John 14:8-9
Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Eyes wide Open said:

If we conclude that God underpins all life and sustains that life then he creates functionality on a micro level, thus it is deemed 'good'. On a macro level what underpins our lives as humans and creates functionality is love, compassion, empathy. service to others, peace and joy. Thus it is deemed 'good' and it creates functionality. When the micro and macro align the relationships is restored, it is in harmony. That can happen individually and/or as a collective.
When Jesus said he was God I believe he was referring to what he was creating with in a selfless state. He mirrored God sustaining life and creating functionality on human level. He was the son to the father, they became one.

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A Mystical Union.

dlamberth said:

Your correct of course. What I was attempting to do is by using a false analogy show the falsehood of the OP.

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Good, thanks. Now we are getting somewhere.
So, what are the real issues here from your perspective?

Saint Steven said:

John 14:8-9
Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

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I think the question that might be asked is what does it mean to "See Me?" What is being seen?

Eyes wide Open said:

If we conclude that God underpins all life and sustains that life then he creates functionality on a micro level, thus it is deemed 'good'. On a macro level what underpins our lives as humans and creates functionality is love, compassion, empathy. service to others, peace and joy. Thus it is deemed 'good' and it creates functionality. When the micro and macro align the relationships is restored, it is in harmony. That can happen individually and/or as a collective.
When Jesus said he was God I believe he was referring to what he was creating with in a selfless state. He mirrored God sustaining life and creating functionality on human level. He was the son to the father, they became one.

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The Apostle John wrote these incredible words about Jesus.
He places Jesus at the beginning with God (as God) creating all that was created.

John 1:1-5, 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

dlamberth said:

I think the question that might be asked is what does it mean to "See Me?" What is being seen?

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That's a great observation. Jesus asked his disciples a similar question.
“Who do people say I am?” To which Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.”

Saint Steven said:

The Apostle John wrote these incredible words about Jesus.
He places Jesus at the beginning with God (as God) creating all that was created.

John 1:1-5, 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

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Functionality was the beginning, what made the universe work. What makes our lives work with functionality? I stated that prior. Yes that essence was there at the beginning.

Saint Steven said:

Good, thanks. Now we are getting somewhere.
So, what are the real issues here from your perspective?

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From the perspective of the OP, the way to find out the values of any spiritual trajectory is as suggested, in the followers and the Light they bring. But it's not in how they worship. It's in what they bring to Humanity. Are they with a Heart filled with Love and Compassion helping the poor and those in need. Are they bringing peace to the world. Do they find companionship even with others of other spiritual trajectories. Are they greedy. Are they honest. Do they light up with laughter and cry with those hurting. You get the idea.

dlamberth said:

From the perspective of the OP, the way to find out the values of any spiritual trajectory is as suggested, in the followers and the Light they bring. But it's not in how they worship. It's in what they bring to Humanity. Are they with a Heart filled with Love and Compassion helping the poor and those in need. Are they bringing peace to the world. Do they find companionship even with others of other spiritual trajectories. Are they greedy. Are they honest. Do they light up with laughter and cry with those hurting. You get the idea.

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Where do those standards come from?