John 11:48 "....shall come the Romans and take away of us, place and nation"

LittleLambofJesus · May 4, 2019

TribulationSigns said:
Tell us, what did Jesus talk about here?

John 2:19-21 KJV
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his body.

Oh good grief.
Yes, Jesus was talking about His body. We know that........There was still the other Temple standing.........

We are talking about AFTER the Cross, when He resurrected and ascended.
The Parousia and destruction of the OC Mosaic Temple/Priesthood couldn't take place till after His crucifixion, resurrection, ascension. Pentecost and the preaching of Paul and the Apostles to the Jews and Gentiles!
That is Bible 101.....

Read James 5:8 very slowly and carefully, because Jesus spent a lot of time telling the Apostles about His parousia in conjunction with the destruction of the 1st century Temple in 70ad.

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4930> of the Age?
James 5:8
be ye patient!, also stand-fast the hearts of ye, that the parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448> (5758);

Mark 13:4
and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> all these to be fully concluded<4931>.

Luke 21
7 They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher! when then shall these be being?
And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?

LittleLambofJesus · May 4, 2019

TribulationSigns said: ↑
You don't get it. Jesus Christ DID rebuild the congregation in three days but told His disciple to wait.

mkgal1 said:
You're right - I *don't* get the narrative you're trying to present. It doesn't make sense at all.

Just keep on re-writing your own biblical narrative (it's as if you're making it up freestyle as we move through this thread). When an obvious hole is pointed out- you just seem to dodge and move on to a whole other riff (with a whole lot of extraneous and disconnected text). But just remember your prior chronology that you've left holes in, before you'd moved on.

You stated that the judgment at the cross (still not sure what you're claiming that was - since this is YOUR story you're authoring, that I've NEVER heard of) was IN RESPONSE to the death of Jesus. How can His first arrival (what you are calling the Day of the Lord) be a response to something that happened 33 years later (His death on the cross)? The pins you've pushed in on the timeline are all over the place (His advent; the cross; in response to the cross, but during the cross; 3 days later, at the same time, 40 days after His resurrection).

Agree........
He is the one that doesn't get it......

TribulationSigns said: ↑Tell us, what did Jesus talk about here?
John 2:19-21 KJV
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?[21] But he spake of the temple of his body.

LittleLambofJesus said:
Oh good grief.
Yes, Jesus was talking about His body. We know that........There was still the other Temple standing.........

I just happen to have a thread on that:

John 2:21 "46 yrs to build and Thou raise/build it in 3 days"

LittleLambofJesus said:
In Jhn 2:21, the Jews mentioned it took 46 yrs to build the "temple/sanctuary".
Other than the coincidental fact that the greek word #3485 occurs 46 times in the NT, some commentators say it provides an important timeline. Has anyone else got any views on it?

Pulpit Commentary
Verses 20, 21. - *snip*.............
This is one of the most important chronological data for the life of our Lord. Herod the Great, according to Josephus ('Ant.,' 15:11 1), commenced the rebuilding of the second temple in the autumn of the eighteenth year of his reign.
==========================================
John 2:
13 And the passover of the Jews was nigh, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, 14 and he found in the temple those selling oxen, and sheep, and doves, and the money-changers sitting, 15and having made a whip of small cords, he put all forth out of the temple, also the sheep, and the oxen; and of the money-changers he poured out the coins, and the tables he overthrew, 16and to those selling the doves he said, ‘Take these things hence; make not the house of my Father a house of merchandise.’ 17 And his disciples remembered that it is written, ‘The zeal of Thy house did eat me up;’ 18 the Jews then answered and said to him, ‘What sign dost thou shew to us — that thou dost these things?’ 19 Jesus answered and said to them, ‘Destroy this sanctuary, and in three days I will raise it up.’ 20 The Jews, therefore, said, ‘Forty and six years was this sanctuary building, and wilt thou in three days raise it up?’ 21but he spake concerning the sanctuary of his body; 22 when, then, he was raised out of the dead, his disciples remembered that he said this to them, and they believed the Writing, and the word that Jesus said.

The veil of the Sanctuary was rent in 2 at the crucifixion, literally rendering it no better than any other building.

Mat 27:51
and behold! the veil of the Sanctuary was rent in two from top unto bottom, and the land did quake, and the rocks were rent,
1 Corinthians 15:4
that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Here is some info and commentaries on John 2:21 and the Greek word #3485

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

G3485 ναός (naos), occurs 46 times in 40 verses
Thayer's Greek Lexicon

John 2:20 Commentaries: The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"

Pulpit Commentary
Verses 20, 21. -
The immediate reference of the words to the building before them was only one of a thousand misapplications of the words of Jesus. The seeds of truth which his words contain would take root in after days.
Meanwhile the Jews answered and said - taking the obvious and literal sense of the words, and treating them with an ill-concealed irony, if not scoff, to which our Lord made no reply - In forty and six years was this temple built as we see it today.

This is one of the most important chronological data for the life of our Lord. Herod the Great, according to Josephus ('Ant.,' 15:11 1), commenced the rebuilding of the second temple in the autumn of the eighteenth year of his reign.
We find that his first year reckoned from Nisan, A.U.C. 717-718. Consequently, the eighteenth year must have commenced between Nisan, A.U.C. 734-735 and 735-736. The forty-sixth year after this would make the. Passover at which this speech was delivered - the spring of A.U.C. 781 (Wieseler, 'Chronicles Synopsis of the Four Gospels,' translation; and Herzog, 'Encyc.,' 21:546.
The fact that Josephus, in his 'Bell. Jud.,' 1:21, gives the fifteenth year of Herod's reign instead of the eighteenth, is shown by Wieseler to be an error of the transcriber, see p. 152, note), which, if we compare with the other hints, is a fixed point from which to reckon the birth year and death year of our Lord.
The "about thirty years old" of the Lord at his baptism throws us to about A.U.C. 751, B.C. 2, for the year of his birth, and if there be only one Passover mentioned in John's Gospel between this and the last Passover, it gives A.U.C. 783 for the year of his death.
This date is at least coincident with the date derived from the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, as that of the commencement of the mission of John (see my examination of these dates in appendix to 'John the Baptist').

The temple which Herod began to repair in the eighteenth year of his reign was not completed until A.D. , under Herod Agrippa II., a very short period before its utter destruction. The irony and scorn are manifest: Wilt thou raise it up in three days? John shows, in ver. 21, that, in the deep sense in which our Lord used the words, he abundantly justified his promise. But he - ἐκεῖνος, the Lord, not the people, not the disciples - spake of the temple of his body. This is the reflection which was made upon the word of Jesus by the evangelists in after days. Even Mark (Mark 14:58) reveals the presence of a spiritual interpretation of the words by some of his unsympathetic listeners. It must not be forgotten that, in the synoptists, we find the presence of the idea that his service was a temple service, and that he was greater than the temple (Matthew 12:6; cf. also Hebrews 3:6; 1 Corinthians 12:12, 27; 1 Corinthians 6:15; Romans 12:5; Ephesians 4:12; Ephesians 1:22, 23; with Ephesians 2:19-22). etc. ........
================================================
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(20) They profess to seek a sign for evidence; they use it for cavil.
Forty and six years was this temple in building.--
It is implied that it was not then finished. The date of the completion is given by Josephus (Ant. xx. 9, ? 7) as A.D. 64. The same author gives the eighteenth year of the reign of Herod the Great (Nisan 734--Nisan 735, A.U.100) as the commencement of the renewal of the Temple of Zerubbabel (Ant. xv. 11, ? 1). This would give A.U.C. 781-782, i.e., A.D. 28-29, as the date of the cleansing.
In another passage Josephus gives the month Kislev A.U.C. 734, as the date of the festival connected with the building of the Temple (Ant. xiv. 16, ? 4). This would fix our present date as the Passover of A.U.C. 781, i.e., A.D. 28.
St. Luke furnishes us with an independent date for the commencement of the ministry of John the Baptist. If we count the "fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius (comp. Note on Luke 3:1) from the commencement of his first reign with Augustus (A.U.C. 765, i.e., A.D. 12), this date will be A.U.C. 780, i.e., A.D. 27. The present Passover was in the following year, i.e., as before, A.D. 28. The sole reign of Tiberius commenced two years later (A.D. 14), so that while we have certainly no discrepancy between these independent dates, we have probably a very striking coincidence. Its bearing upon the authenticity of the present Gospel is evident.

Rear it up represents the same Greek word as "raise up," in the previous verse; but the word fits the double meaning. It is the regular term for raising from the dead; but it is also used of rearing up a building, as, e.g., in 3 Ezra 5:44; Ecclesiasticus 49:11.
=============================================
Expositor's Greek Testament

John 2:20. The Jews naturally saw no reference to His own body or to its resurrection, and replied to the letter of His words, τεσσεράκοντα.… The Temple was begun to be rebuilt in the eighteenth year of Herod’s reign that is the autumn of 734–735. Jewish reckoning the beginning of a year was reckoned one year. Thus forty-six years might bring us to the autumn of 779 and the Passover of 780, i.e., 27 A.D. would be regarded as forty-six years from the rebuilding; and this is Edersheim’s calculation. But several accurate chronologists think the following year is meant.
==============================
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
20. Forty and six years, &c.] This was the third Temple. Solomon’s Temple was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. Zerubbabel’s was rebuilt by Herod the Great. The Greek implies that the building began 46 years ago, but not that it is now completed. “The building of the Temple, we are told by Josephus (Ant. xv. ii. 1), was begun in the 18th year of Herod the Great, 734–735 a. u. c. Reckoning 46 years from this point, we are brought to 781 or 782 a. u. c. = 28 or 29 a.d. Comparing this with the data given in Luke 3:1, the question arises, whether we are to reckon the 15th year of Tiberius from his joint reign with Augustus, which began a.d. 12; or from his sole reign after the death of Augustus, a.d. 14.

mkgal1 · May 4, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Oh good grief.
Yes, Jesus was talking about His body. We know that........There was still the other Temple standing.........

We are talking about AFTER the Cross, when He resurrected and ascended.
The Parousia and destruction of the OC Mosaic Temple/Priesthood couldn't take place till after His crucifixion, resurrection, ascension. Pentecost and the preaching of Paul and the Apostles to the Jews and Gentiles!
That is Bible 101.....

Read James 5:8 very slowly and carefully, because Jesus spent a lot of time telling the Apostles about His parousia in conjunction with the destruction of the 1st century Temple in 70ad.

Exactly
And nestled in the passage quoted from the gospel of John was this verse (which is a reference to Psalm 69:9):

John 2:17 ~ Then his disciples remembered this prophecy from the Scriptures: “Passion for God’s house will consume me.”

....that's clearly not a reference to Jesus, but the actual stone structure - the Temple built by Herod.

TribulationSigns · May 4, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Oh good grief.
Yes, Jesus was talking about His body. We know that........There was still the other Temple standing.........

Oh good grief!

No Jesus did not talk about His physical body. He was talking about the temple of his body. Do you even know what is the temple of his body means? It is the temple which his body represents! Just like we are in his body because we are his New Testament temple! Wow! Therefore, it was the Jews that were in His body because they were his Old Testament temple that did fall! Selah!

[/quote]We are talking about AFTER the Cross, when He resurrected and ascended.[/quote]

No, you were not listening to the Word of God:

John 2:19 KJV
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Jesus did not say anything about rebuilt "after" 3 days. He rebuilt it in three days after the temple being destroyed when He was cut off. It was not about a physical temple. It is his congregation that his body represented, just like we are today!

LittleLambofJesus · May 4, 2019

TribulationSigns said:
Oh good grief!

No Jesus did not talk about His physical body. He was talking about the temple of his body. Do you even know what is the temple of his body means? It is the temple which his body represents! Just like we are in his body because we are his New Testament temple! Wow! Therefore, it was the Jews that were in His body because they were his Old Testament temple that did fall! Selah!

We are talking about AFTER the Cross, when He resurrected and ascended.

No, you were not listening to the Word of God:

Click to expand...

Now back to the topic of the thread......

This became fulfilled in 70ad.........

John 11:48
"If ever we may be letting Him thus, all shall be believing into Him, and shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away<142> of Us, and the Place and the Nation."

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:1
And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.

Mark 13:1
And He going forth out of the Temple,
one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”

Luke 21:5
and of some saying concerning the Temple,
that to goodly stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>

TribulationSigns · May 4, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Exactly
And nestled in the passage quoted from the gospel of John was this verse (which is a reference to Psalm 69:9):

John 2:17 ~ Then his disciples remembered this prophecy from the Scriptures: “Passion for God’s house will consume me.”

....that's clearly not a reference to Jesus, but the actual stone structure - the Temple built by Herod.

What?! It was NOT physical stones that God was grief against! It was against his People!

John 2:13-22 KJV
[13] And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
[14] And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
[15] And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
[16] And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
[17] And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

It is people who are doing unlawful in God's House.
It is people who made money and take advantage of the poor in God's House.
It is people who have made God's House a house of merchandise.
It is His people whom God has scoure them out of the temple.

Not physical stones because these cannot do these! It is His people that He pours His wrath upon. Not upon some physical stones of the building! Stones can't speak. Stones can't hear. Christ did not kick the physical stones out of the temple. It is PEOPLE, his congregation who did the wrong thing.

Do you not realize that God made this as an old testament example for the judgment of the NEW Testament congregation too? The oxen and sheep are a type of merchandises of the Gospel while the doves represent the Holy Spirit where the false prophets and Christs are trying to sell and make a profit off with their false doctrines the mimics the True in His congregation? Guess you didn't notice it.

TribulationSigns · May 4, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
This became fulfilled in 70ad....

The Lord Judges who have correct testimony.

LittleLambofJesus · May 4, 2019

TribulationSigns said:
What?! It was NOT physical stones that God was grief against! It was against his People!
John 2:13-22 KJV
[14] And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep.......[15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple,

Good verses!

Nahum 3:2
A sound of a Whip, and sound of a quaking wheel, and horse galloping, and chariot leaping. A horseman mounting. And blazing sword, and flashing spear,
and many wounded and mass of corpses and there is no end to bodies

Hey lookie here! The same animals shown in Revelation 18:11 concerning the physical Temple in Jerusalem! Oh the wonder of His word......

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18:11
And the merchants of the land are lamenting and are mourning over Her, that the cargo of them no-one is buying not-still 13 and cinnamon and incenses and attars and frankincense and wine and oil and flour and grain
and beasts and sheep and of horses and of chariots and of bodies and souls of men.

Revelation 19
17 And I saw one messenger standing in the sun, and he cries-out in great voice, saying to all the birds, the ones flying in mid-heaven,
"hither! be ye being gathered<4863>! into the Supper<1173> of the Great God. 18 That ye may be eating fleshes of kings......

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

mkgal1 · May 4, 2019

TribulationSigns said:
What?! It was NOT physical stones that God was grief against! It was against his People!

That is your presumption that you're trying to cram Scripture into....but that is not what's going on there (neither of those options).

TribulationSigns · May 4, 2019

mkgal1 said:
That is your presumption that you're trying to cram Scripture into....but that is not what's going on there (neither of those options).

If that is what you think. Then the Lord of the vineyard will judges whose testimony is accurate.

mkgal1 · May 4, 2019

TribulationSigns said:
If that is what you think. Then the Lord of the vineyard will judges whose testimony is accurate.

His judgment is dependent upon what I think (if/then)? That's another interesting theory.

TribulationSigns · May 4, 2019

mkgal1 said:
His judgment is dependent upon what I think? That's another interesting theory.

I did not say that. The Lord is the Word Himself, He shall judge which of our testimony is solely based on His Word.

mkgal1 · May 6, 2019

TribulationSigns said:
It was NOT physical stones that God was grief against! It was against his People!

I don't believe Jesus was grieved *against* anything - instead, I believe He was grieved FOR those that were STILL - after all these years - turning towards other gods to "save them" (like power/their own strategic choices/the religious system.....etc). But - I ALSO see that He is gracious and slow to anger....not wishing any to perish. What were Jesus' words on the cross? "Father, forgive them....they know not what they do".

Going all the way back to the first Temple built by Solomon - Solomon's prayer included these words:

“O LORD, you have said that you would live in a thick cloud of darkness. 13 Now I have built a glorious Temple for you, a place where you can live forever!d” ~ 1 Kings 8:12-13

.....and it seems to me that the Temple was David's idea that God allowed, because it was what humanity understood (just as God allowed the Israelites to have a king, just as others had). But....it wasn't meant to be part of His eternal plan - the human kings and physical temple, along with the entire religious system of Levitical priests/animal sacrifices/etc was all shadows pointing to Jesus. It did have its necessary time and fit into God's greater plan. And Solomon seemed to have understood that God can't be contained as other gods were limited in their physical realm when he prayed:

27“But will God really live on earth? Why, even the highest heavens cannot contain you. How much less this Temple I have built! 28Nevertheless, listen to my prayer and my plea, O LORD my God. Hear the cry and the prayer that your servant is making to you today. 29May you watch over this Temple night and day, this place where you have said, ‘My name will be there.’ May you always hear the prayers I make toward this place.30May you hear the humble and earnest requests from me and your people Israel when we pray toward this place. Yes, hear us from heaven where you live, and when you hear, forgive. ~ 1 Kings 8:27

....Solomon also seemed to understand that God desired that ALL seek Him and worship Him when he prayed this:

“In the future, foreigners who do not belong to your people Israel will hear of you. They will come from distant lands because of your name, 42for they will hear of your great name and your strong hand and your powerful arm. And when they pray toward this Temple, 43then hear from heaven where you live, and grant what they ask of you. In this way, all the people of the earth will come to know and fear you, just as your own people Israel do. They, too, will know that this Temple I have built honors your name. ~ 1 Kings 8:41-43

.....but how long did that Temple honor God's name?

In 1 Kings 11 we read:

1King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women along with the daughter of Pharaoh—women of Moab, Ammon, Edom, and Sidon, as well as Hittite women. 2These women were from the nations about which the LORD had told the Israelites, “You must not intermarry with them, for surely they will turn your hearts after their gods.” Yet Solomon clung to these women in love. 3He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines—and his wives turned his heart away.

4For when Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and he was not wholeheartedly devoted to the LORD his God, as his father David had been. 5Solomon followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and Molecha the abomination of the Ammonites. 6So Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD—and unlike his father David, he did not follow the LORD completely.

7At that time on a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites. 8He did the same for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.

God's Anger Against Solomon

9Now the LORD grew angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice. 10Although He had warned Solomon explicitly not to follow other gods, Solomon did not observe what the LORD had commanded.

11Then the LORD said to Solomon, “Because you have done this and have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will tear the kingdom away from you and give it to your servant.12Nevertheless, for the sake of your father David, I will not do it during your lifetime; I will tear it out of the hand of your son. 13Yet I will not tear the whole kingdom away from him. I will give one tribe to your son for the sake of My servant David and for the sake of Jerusalem, which I have chosen.” ~ 1 Kings 11:1-13

I'm of the belief that God has perfect timing - and the key grievance the Lord had with the system of allowing the Levitical priests and the Temple represent God to ALL nations is that the system was only good enough to point TO Christ - and once Jesus was able to fulfill all that was shadowed - there was no need for the system. BUT......He was gracious in allowing for a generation of change - the forty year period between His death and the Day of the Lord.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+56:7,Jeremiah+7:11,Matthew+21:13,Mark+11:17&version=NRSV

mkgal1 · May 6, 2019

Quoting N.T. Wright------->"The New Testament (NT), however, assumes its readers not only to be familiar with the OT, but also to depend upon it. Second Timothy 3:16-17 reads, ‘All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.’ The word ‘scripture’ (Greek: graphē) primarily refers to the Jewish Scriptures. Christians need to be familiar with the OT in order to understand much of the NT, particularly to appreciate the person and work of Jesus Christ. While there isn’t space here to discuss all of the ways we might relate the OT to the NT, we will look briefly at how OT prophecy relates to Jesus.

The OT Story Finds its Climax in Jesus
The writer of Hebrews deliberately connects Jesus to the OT:

‘Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds’ (Heb 1:1-2).

These verses point out that God spoke to the Jewish people through the prophets, and we can presume that most—if not all—of those oracles had meaning to those who first heard the messages. Yet, as we continue to read through Hebrews, we can see that the author understands that in light of the person and ministry of Jesus, the Old Testament has meaning even beyond its original setting. New Testament scholar David deSilva observes, ‘Since Jesus is the self-expression of the Father that brings together all God’s former partial revelations (Heb 1:1-2), the author uses Jesus as a reference point from which these older oracles take their meaning.’........"

OT Prophecy Points to the Second Coming of Jesus

In several places in the Pauline corpus we can find the phrase ‘Day of the Lord’ (e.g., 1Cor. 5:5; 1Th. 5:2; 2Th. 2:2), or ‘the day of Jesus Christ,’ (e.g., 1 Cor 1:8; 2 Cor 1:14; Phil 1:6, 10). Other NT writers do similarly (e.g., Heb 10:25; 2 Pet 3:10). The ‘Day of the Lord’ is a popular expression found in the Hebrew Bible.

The oracles of some prophets focus almost exclusively on the Day of the Lord (e.g., Joel, Obadiah). The Day of the Lord is in essence a time when God intervenes more definitively and clearly in human affairs in order to exercise judgment. This judgment means punishment for the enemies of God, but vindication for the people of God.

Much more could be said about the Day of the Lord, but my main point here is that NT writers saw a connection between the OT prophecies of the Day of the Lord , the parousia, or second coming of Christ
~ https://ntwrightonline.org/three-ways-old-testament-theology-points-to-jesus/
*********************************

I just wanted to add that believing that the Day of the Lord has been fulfilled - does NOT mean that I don't believe that Jesus will RETURN again. I do - just as is recited in the Nicene Creed.....but, as the Orthodox believe, He HAS defeated His last enemy (death) and has vindicated the people of God.

I love the lyrics of this song by Kari Jobe:

The moon and stars they wept

The morning sun was dead
The Savior of the world was fallen
His body on the cross
His blood poured out for us
The weight of every curse upon him

One final breath He gave
As Heaven looked away
The Son of God was laid in darkness
A battle in the grave
The war on death was waged
The power of hell forever broken

The ground began to shake
The stone was rolled away
His perfect love could not be overcome
Now death where is your sting
Our resurrected King has rendered you defeated

Forever, He is glorified
Forever, He is lifted high
Forever, He is risen
He is alive
He is alive

The ground began to shake
The stone was rolled away
His perfect love could not be overcome
Now death where is your sting
Our resurrected King has rendered you defeated ~ Kari Jobe

If you believe that's heretical - it's exactly what the message is of the Gospel ---->The Resurrection | Icon of Victory

LittleLambofJesus · May 6, 2019

mkgal1 said: ↑
Exactly And nestled in the passage quoted from the gospel of John was this verse (which is a reference to Psalm 69:9):
John 2:17 ~ Then his disciples remembered this prophecy from the Scriptures: “Passion for God’s house will consume me.”

TribulationSigns said: ↑
It was NOT physical stones that God was grief against! It was against his People!

Good grief....no one is denying that TS!

Jer 4:11
At that time it will be said To this people and to Jerusalem,
“A dry wind of the desolate heights blows in the wilderness Toward the daughter of My people— Not to fan or to cleanse—

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath<ὀργῆς<3709>?
Luke 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, “Brood of vipers! Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath<ὀργῆς<3709>?
Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be Great Distress in the land and wrath<ὀργὴ <3709> upon this people.

Act 28:17
And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them:
“Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,

Revelation 6:
16 and they say to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 “For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
==========================

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

"inhabitants jerusalem"
occurs 280 times in 52 verses in the NKJV, including 45 exact phrases shown first.
Page 1 / 2
exact matches (Jos 15:63–Zec 13:1) inexact matches (Jos 10:1–Jer 23:14)

Isa 5:3
“And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
Isa 8:14
He will be as a sanctuary, But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense
To both the houses of Israel, As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Isa 22:21
I will clothe him with your robe And strengthen him with your belt;
I will commit your responsibility into his hand. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem And to the house of Judah.
Jer 4:4
Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, And take away the foreskins of your hearts,
You men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Lest My fury come forth like fire,
And burn so that no one can quench it, Because of the evil of your doings.”
Jer 8:1
“At that time,” says the LORD, “they shall bring out the bones of the kings of Judah, and the bones of its princes, and the bones of the priests, and the bones of the prophets, and the bones of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, out of their graves.
Jer 11:
2 “Hear the words of this covenant, and speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem;
9 And the LORD said to me, “A conspiracy has been found among the men of Judah and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Jer 11:12
“Then the cities of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem will go and cry out to the gods to whom they offer incense, but they will not save them at all in the time of their trouble.
Jer 13:13
“Then you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land—even the kings who sit on David's throne, the priests, the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem—with drunkenness!
Jer 17:
20 “and say to them, ‘Hear the word of the LORD, you kings of Judah, and all Judah, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, who enter by these gates.
25 “then shall enter the gates of this city kings and princes sitting on the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they and their princes, accompanied by the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and this city shall remain forever.
Jer 18:11
“Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.” ' ”
Jer 19:3
“and say, ‘Hear the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem. Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: “Behold, I will bring such a catastrophe on this place, that whoever hears of it, his ears will tingle.
Jer 25:2
which Jeremiah the prophet spoke to all the people of Judah and to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying:
Jer 32:32
‘because of all the evil of the children of Israel and the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke Me to anger—they, their kings, their princes, their priests, their prophets, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Jer 35:
13 “Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: ‘Go and tell the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, “Will you not receive instruction to obey My words?” says the LORD.
17 “Therefore thus says the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel: ‘Behold, I will bring on Judah and on all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the doom that I have pronounced against them; because I have spoken to them but they have not heard, and I have called to them but they have not answered.' ”
Jer 36:31
“I will punish him, his family, and his servants for their iniquity; and I will bring on them, on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and on the men of Judah all the doom that I have pronounced against them; but they did not heed.” ' ”
Jer 42:18
“For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: ‘As My anger and My fury have been poured out on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so will My fury be poured out on you when you enter Egypt. And you shall be an oath, an astonishment, a curse, and a reproach; and you shall see this place no more.'
Eze 11:15
“Son of man, your brethren, your relatives, your countrymen, and all the house of Israel in its entirety, are those about whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, ‘Get far away from the LORD; this land has been given to us as a possession.'
Eze 12:19
“And say to the people of the land, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the land of Israel: “They shall eat their bread with anxiety, and drink their water with dread, so that her land may be emptied of all who are in it, because of the violence of all those who dwell in it.
Eze 15:6
“Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Like the wood of the vine among the trees of the forest, which I have given to the fire for fuel, so I will give up the inhabitants of Jerusalem;
Dan 9:7
“O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You.
Zep 1:4
“I will stretch out My hand against Judah, And against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
I will cut off every trace of Baal from this place, The names of the idolatrous priests[fn] with the pagan priests—
Zec 12:
5 “And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, ‘The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in the LORD of hosts, their God.'
7 “The LORD will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah.
8 “In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them.
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zec 13:1
“In that day a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for uncleanness.

mkgal1 · May 6, 2019

TribulationSigns said:
It was NOT physical stones that God was grief against! It was against his People!

LittleLambofJesus said:
Good grief....no one is denying that TS!

I actually DO have a bit of a problem with the way that's worded, though.

Jesus wasn't ANGRY against "His people" - He was grieved FOR them. And, even then, we have to distinguish who He was saddened for - and who were "saved". We wouldn't be calling ourselves followers of Christ if it weren't for the faithful Jewish believers (earlier in this thread, TS laughed and scoffed at that). I have a big problem with people making the claim that the Kingdom was taken from the Jewish people as a whole - and given to the "Christians". That's not true - and that belief is what incites the violence we've seen against innocent people that are praying in their synagogues across the world today.

In Jesus' lament over Jerusalem, it's recorded that He said (after all the "woes" to the scribes and Pharisees):

Matthew 23:34-37 ~ "Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Lament over Jerusalem
(Luke 13:31-35)

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. "

mkgal1 · May 6, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

I love this passage - because it shows that He still poured out grace (and that grace was accepted):

Acts 2 ~
5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6And when this sound rang out, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking his own language.

7Astounded and amazed, they asked, “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8How is it then that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,a 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and converts to Judaism; Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

12Astounded and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

Acts 2:36-41 ~
36Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”

Three Thousand Believe

37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise belongs to you and to your children and to all who are far off, to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

40With many other words he testified, and he urged them, “Be saved from this corrupt generation.” 41Those who embraced his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to the believers that day.

LittleLambofJesus · May 6, 2019

mkgal1 said:
I actually DO have a bit of a problem with the way that's worded, though.

Jesus wasn't ANGRY with "His people" - He was grieved FOR them. And, even then, we have to distinguish who He was saddened for - and who were "saved". We wouldn't be calling ourselves followers of Christ if it weren't for the faithful Jewish believers (earlier in this thread, TS laughed and scoffed at that). I have a big problem with people making the claim that the Kingdom was taken from the Jewish people as a whole - and given to the "Christians". That's not true - and that belief is what incites the violence we've seen against innocent people that are praying in their synagogues across the world today.

In Jesus' lament over Jerusalem, it's recorded that He said (after all the "woes" to the scribes and Pharisees):

Matthew 23:34-37 ~ "Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Lament over Jerusalem
(Luke 13:31-35)

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. "

Good post. The common 1st century Jews suffered just as much as the corrupt Judean rulers/shepherds in the 70ad holocaust. That is sometimes difficult for me to comprehend and understand and why the Jews of today should know that Jesus finished it for them.

Eze 34:
8 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became food to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;
12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

Matthew 9:36
But when He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion for them,
because they were weary/harassed, and scattered like sheep having no shepherd<4166>

John 10:
2 “But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
16 “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one Shepherd<4167>.

1 Peter 5:4
and when the Chief-Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.
Hebrews 13:20
Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead,
that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Revelation 7:17
“for the Lambkin who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

mkgal1 · May 6, 2019

.......but the good news is that some listened to Jesus - and understood what He meant, when it really mattered, and heeded His warning when He said:

Matthew 24:16 ~ "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Revelation 12:6 ~ “And the woman [Israel] fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she might be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.”

Church Timeline:

ca. 30-33 Holy Spirit descends on the day of Pentecost.

34 Apostle Peter founds See of Antioch.

35 Name Christian first used in Antioch.

37 Joseph of Arimathea travels to Britain and lands in Glastonbury.

40 Apostle Barnabas sent from Jerusalem to Antioch.

ca. 42 Apostle Paul's ecstasy to the third heaven (2 Cor.12:2-4).

ca. 46-48 Apostle Paul's first missionary journey, with Apostle Barnabas.

49 Apostolic Council of Jerusalem rules that Gentiles do not have to become Jews before becoming Christians.

ca. 49-52 Apostle Paul's second missionary journey, with Apostle Silas.

50 Apostle Matthew finishes the Gospel of Matthew in Aramaic.

52 Apostle Thomas arrives in Kerala, introducing Christianity to India.

ca. 53-57 Apostle Paul's third missionary journey (Acts 18:23 - 21:16).

ca. 59-62 Apostle Paul's fourth missionary journey, voyage to Rome.

62 Martyrdom of Apostle James the Just; crucifixion of Apostle Andrew in Patras.

63 Aristobulus consecrated as first bishop of Britain.

64-68 First of ten major persecutions of the early Church, under Emperor Nero.

66 Flight of the Christian community in Jerusalem to Pella and other places in the Decapolis, and Antioch.

67 Martyrdom of Apostles Peter and Paul in Rome; Apostle Linus elected first bishop of Rome.

69 Ignatius of Antioch consecrated bishop of Antioch.

70 Temple in Jerusalem is destroyed by the Romans; expulsion of Christians from synagogues.

Ancient ruins of Pella

John 11:48 "....shall come the Romans and take away of us, place and nation"

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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