Can the Church Survive Without God's Word?

Can the church survive without God's word?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 17 43.6%
  • No.

    Votes: 22 56.4%

  • Total voters
    39

Bible Highlighter

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I kind of see the way of interpreting in the above post is according to the flesh.

Which is why I tend to disagree with stuff that is said.

Even the devil can quote scripture, so one must discern.

Right, so if I am misquoting it by some carnal fleshy means, you should be able to explain the words in those verses and refute what I am saying. But seeing you cannot do that, this just shows that you are not really in agreement with what those verses actually say. You have a certain set of "beliefs" and you have to insert those "beliefs" into the Bible somehow even though they do not really fit. But I enjoy to be challenged by Scripture. So prove your case with what these verses really say. Give me a word by word commentary on them to prove that your belief is the real belief to hold to. But we both know you are not going to do that. I know you cannot do that because the verses simply say the exact opposite of what you believe here.
 
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Philip_B

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Just to clarify friend do we agree Christ holds the absolute on He is the ONLY WAY?
The absolute truth of this statement is a matter of faith. None the less I do concur, however that requires the step of faith beyond where reason alone in the world may take you.
 
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Gregory95

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How so friend if by Grace we have faith we follow daily putting our flesh to death refining the inside to be more acceptable to God

Christ is the ONLY way without faith in Him any and all things are done in vain

It is because of this recognition of the truth that we are to live not by bread but every word that proceeds from God

Now we know Christ IS the Word of God

Thus we are to see what He said and follow

How do we do this without reading the doctrine He put fourth for us

The absolute truth of this statement is a matter of faith. None the less I do concur, however that requires the step of faith beyond where reason alone in the world may take you.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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This has to do with Cult theology how?
a text cannot be the source of a person's moral sense, if that is the case, then their conscience is seared as a with a hot iron.

When a text becomes the reason to do good, instead of just because it's the right thing to do, this is what cults use to remove people's sense of right and wrong and replace it with their own ideas.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Again, you don't know the commands in the New Testament. Yet, you expect me to believe that my focusing on the NT Commands is carnal even though you do not even know what all of them are? Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

As for the enemy: 1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil. The breaking of the law is sin (1 John 3:4). Do you believe you can break God's laws and still be saved because you think you are not under any of God's laws salvation wise? Does a belief in Jesus truly save you alone? I challenge you to look at the verses below in light of that wrong belief.

For the Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).
Since anything that does not come from faith is sin (Romans 14), the above interpretation fails by default.

Romans 8
[38] For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I am persuaded, but the above post indicates that you are not persuaded and did not make a conclusion in faith of Romans 8:38-39.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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That doesn't sound like the Bible, though.

Trust is another word for faith, belief, fidelity. If it doesn't sound like the bible, you might have more pressing concerns than correcting doctrinal errors.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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When the Bible talks about how God is not the author of confusion, it is in context or view to God's good ways and people. You said before that your version of studying the Scriptures by faith is confusing. This would not be in view of unbelievers being punished like in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 or those who refused to obey God like at the tower of babel. Even unbelievers were not given the meaning of Jesus's parables. To them, it would been confusion. They do not understand the mysteries of God's kingdom. But these are unbelievers and not believers.

Again, what you stated before was not in line with the truth of God's Word. God is not the author of confusion when it comes to his saints or followers.
So then, all denominations and traditions in the faith are therefore wrong, including you. Since we cannot agree on one point of view, everyone is wrong, since God does not author confusion.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Right, so if I am misquoting it by some carnal fleshy means, you should be able to explain the words in those verses and refute what I am saying. But seeing you cannot do that, this just shows that you are not really in agreement with what those verses actually say. You have a certain set of "beliefs" and you have to insert those "beliefs" into the Bible somehow even though they do not really fit. But I enjoy to be challenged by Scripture. So prove your case with what these verses really say. Give me a word by word commentary on them to prove that your belief is the real belief to hold to. But we both know you are not going to do that. I know you cannot do that because the verses simply say the exact opposite of what you believe here.
It's just when I was reading the passages, they were disproving your point consistently, so it seemed pointless to go through the entire bible. Being that it is God's job to straighten out and transform minds, not me.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Since anything that does not come from faith is sin (Romans 14), the above interpretation fails by default.

So if Paul did not mean plainly what he said in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 and James did not plainly mean what he said in James 4:6 then surely you would have an explanation to these verses that would make more sense in light of the context. But seeing you did not offer an explanation, and seeing that you said before that your study of the Scriptures by faith is confusion (Which is contrary to the statement made by Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:33), I am going to assume you really don't know what you are talking, my friend. No offense. I care and love you in Jesus Christ, but I do not love your belief. For it opens the door to lead others to treat God's grace as a license for immorality (Whether you want that to happen or not).

You said:
Romans 8
[38] For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I am persuaded, but the above post indicates that you are not persuaded and did not make a conclusion in faith of Romans 8:38-39.

Three things you will not find on that list of things that will not separate you from the love of God in Romans 8:38-39.

(a) Yourself.
(b) Unbelief.
(c) Grievous sin.​

The Bible talks about how a person can choose to later reject God.

For Paul says,

  1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
  2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
  3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
  4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
  5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
  6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
  7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
  8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
  9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
  10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

We can have a harden heart of unbelief and depart from the living God (Hebrews 3:12-14).

Again, the Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).
 
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bekkilyn

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Maybe some people have to go through a phase where they fruitlessly (and perhaps fearfully) attempt to follow thousands of self-imposed rules before finally coming to the realization that God's grace is bigger, a lesson that Jesus attempted to teach the religious leaders of his day.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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So if Paul did not mean plainly what he said in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 and James did not plainly mean what he said in James 4:6 then surely you would have an explanation to these verses that would make more sense in light of the context. But seeing you did not offer an explanation, and seeing that you said before that your study of the Scriptures by faith is confusion (Which is contrary to the statement made by Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:33), I am going to assume you really don't know what you are talking, my friend. No offense. I care and love you in Jesus Christ, but I do not love your belief. For it opens the door to lead others to treat God's grace as a license for immorality (Whether you want that to happen or not).



Three things you will not find on that list of things that will not separate you from the love of God in Romans 8:38-39.

(a) Yourself.
(b) Unbelief.
(c) Grievous sin.​

The Bible talks about how a person can choose to later reject God.

For Paul says,

  1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
  2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
  3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
  4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
  5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
  6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
  7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
  8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
  9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
  10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

We can have a harden heart of unbelief and depart from the living God (Hebrews 3:12-14).

Again, the Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).
That's okay, I used to be just like you. However, God showed me how this type of belief actually affects my Spiritual being, so I just can't be like that anymore.

On a personal progress note, seeing myself in the mirror doesn't really trigger me like it used to, so God be praised.
 
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Mountainmike

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Calibre ? What does that have to do with it?

They were ordinary people, extraordinary only in that they were chosen to hand down the faith, as we're all those in the succession that followed, sent to pass the truth on. It is not by their merit, but by one who gave them the mission.

But there is the issue. You will not find a difference in the essence of eucharist from those taught by apostles such as polycarp, ignatius, to the nicene fathers to present day.
The Eucharist remains the same. They were given a job to hand down and they did. Tradition , handing down, was the main passage of faith.

That's how we know a succession bishop is needed for axeucharist of real flesh. Those that don't have such may have a bible , they don't interpret it correctly for which you need tradition and authority . The bible alone without correct meaning is not the word of God.

And the church happily existed without a New Testament for many years

At the same time, to the degree that history is accurate, that same church came to resemble the pharisees in many ways.

How many references are there to the old testament in the new testament? Who among us in modern times can can claim having attained understanding that rivals the apostles?

Who among us has wiser words than those attributed to Jesus. Why did they even bother assembling the new testament?

I appreciate that aspects of the letters, given that they were written to address specific churches within the context of their time, may warrant consideration given we are not steeped in the same culture.

But to claim that the writings are not of higher authority than modern opinions is to put those with their modern opinions above those who wrote the Bible. Maybe you believe what it says and maybe you don't, but if you do, I don't see anyone of the caliber of those who wrote the Bible walking around today.
 
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W2L

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a text cannot be the source of a person's moral sense, if that is the case, then their conscience is seared as a with a hot iron.

When a text becomes the reason to do good, instead of just because it's the right thing to do, this is what cults use to remove people's sense of right and wrong and replace it with their own ideas.
So following scripture sears our conscience? No, thats not true.
 
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Dave-W

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You also have to understand that Jesus and His followers always quoted Scripture tons of times, and not once did they ever quote a "tradition"
Of course they all quoted tradition. It is just without understanding first century Jewish tradition, you would not recognize it as such.

Btw - most of the parables were familiar tradition that our Lord put a new twist on.
 
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Gregory95

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a text cannot be the source of a person's moral sense, if that is the case, then their conscience is seared as a with a hot iron.

When a text becomes the reason to do good, instead of just because it's the right thing to do, this is what cults use to remove people's sense of right and wrong and replace it with their own ideas.
There is a way that seems right to a man but leads to death

Although i understand what your saying i feel many need to think on how do you know you are doing what you were COMMANDED to do by the Word of God HIMSELF if you do not read what He said
 
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Gregory Thompson

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There is a way that seems right to a man but leads to death

Although i understand what your saying i feel many need to think on how do you know you are doing what you were COMMANDED to do by the Word of God HIMSELF if you do not read what He said
I find the scriptures are taught best when the Holy Spirit brings them back to remembrance. However, in the earliest part of my walk, I didn't have a church or a bible and somehow when I started reading and studying it, there was a lot of familiar material some word-for-word, the Israelites in the Wilderness were also taught by intimate contact with God.

When the Israelites were advised of this, they were also cautioned that the children after them, will not have this experience to teach them.

So when people are all about bible only, and teach in a way that implies that they have no faith in Jesus to "keep us from falling and present us with exceeding joy" .. it basically turns me off anything they have to say, since you cannot reach the destination from that path.

Without faith it is impossible to please God, so theology that is not written with that same spirit of faith, is like multiplying words without knowledge.
 
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Gregory95

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I find the scriptures are taught best when the Holy Spirit brings them back to remembrance. However, in the earliest part of my walk, I didn't have a church or a bible and somehow when I started reading and studying it, there was a lot of familiar material some word-for-word, the Israelites in the Wilderness were also taught by intimate contact with God.

When the Israelites were advised of this, they were also cautioned that the children after them, will not have this experience to teach them.

So when people are all about bible only, and teach in a way that implies that they have no faith in Jesus to "keep us from falling and present us with exceeding joy" .. it basically turns me off anything they have to say, since you cannot reach the destination from that path.

Without faith it is impossible to please God, so theology that is not written with that same spirit of faith, is like multiplying words without knowledge.
i can't speak for everyone only myself

my understanding is NOT Bible only my understanding is we should NOT hold rituals above the teaching the Bible offers for Scripture tells us to study it i recall nowhere in the NT when a man made ritual was held as more important then Scripture

Perhaps we just misunderstan one another

it looks to me that tradition is trying to replace Scripture saying it is nothing to call what the Word of God commanded nothing hurts my heart

Do you think i profess everyone should not have fellowship thus no
Organized church

i don't feel that way i just feel we were left with a record by the power of God we can read what the Word of God told us
Can legalism arise of course my first go through i fell into it praise be to Christ though He gave me revelation this was wrong it is FAITH we must have since we have faith do we do whatever no we work daily to be better what example do you follow if you don't know the example Christ left us with

i pray the Holy Spirit guides us for all true believers are to be of one mind sad it is wolves came as Paul said and made the mess we are in now
 
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bekkilyn

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Some groups, people, churches, etc. idolize the Bible. Other groups, people, churches, etc. idolize tradition.

There is a balance between the two with God himself above both.
 
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