John 11:48 "....shall come the Romans and take away of us, place and nation"

LittleLambofJesus

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TribulationSigns said:
The "coming of the Lord of the Vineyard" is NOT the "second coming" in 70AD or the physical destruction of the temple itself. Not at all. It is the FIRST coming of Christ.
Matthew and Jesus have it happening AFTER the Son is Killed.

You have it at the Birth of the Son. The 1st Advent.

I'll stick with Matt & Jesus.

Luke 20:9-18 KJV
[9] Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.
[10] And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.
[11] And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.
[12] And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.
[13] Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
[14] But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
[15] So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
[16] He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
[17] And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
[18] Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

You ask what I think God/Jesus (Lord of the Vineyard/Chief Conerstone) would do In RESPONSE to the Killing on the Son?

In RESPONSE?

Are you sure?

"In response" would be chronologically AFTER the Killing... Yes... AFTER the Killing. You have the response taking place BEFORE, DURING the 1st Advent.
Matt and Jesus place the response AFTER the 1st Coming/Advent had COMPLETED. Not Before and not DURING the first advent, as you claim.

Strange you fail to comprehend the order of events that you have just spelled out.
Luke 20:16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid. 17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
Yes, it occurs after the cross and refers to the destruction of the OC Jewish Temple and the Jewish rulers/priesthood in Jerusalem.

Mat 16:21
From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.

AFTER the Cross:

1Th 2:15
who killed both the Lord Jesus
and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but the wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

2889. kosmos kos'-mos probably from the base of 2865;
orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively (morally)):--adorning, world.

Matthew 24:21
for then shall be great tribulation, such as not has become from beginning of world<2889> till of the now, neither not no may be becoming.
Mark 13:19
for shall be the days, those, tribulation such as not has become such from beginning of creation<2397> which God creates till of the now, and not no may be becoming

Luke 11:50
“that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world<2889> may be required of this generation,

Luke 21
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Luke 23:30 "..Mountains fall on us, hills cover us.."

Eze 35:8
“And I will fill its mountains with the slain; on your hills and in your valleys and in all your ravines those who are slain by the sword shall fall.

Hosea 10:8
And they are destroyed high places of vanity, sin of Israel.
Thorn and weed shall come up on their altars, and they say to mountains 'cover us' and to hills 'fall on us' [Luke 23:30/Revelation 6:16]

Luke 23:30
"Then they shall be beginning to be saying to the mountains 'be falling upon us!' and to the hills 'cover us!'". [Hosea 10:8 Matthew 24:15]

Revelation 6:16
And they are saying to the mountains and the rocks
, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their g wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM


................................
 
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TribulationSigns

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"In response" would be chronologically AFTER the Killing... Yes... AFTER the Killing. You have the response taking place BEFORE, DURING the 1st Advent.

Of course, after Messiah, the Prince was cut off first. Not 40 years "grace period" or anything like that. The judgment was right there at the Cross and in three days, Christ rebuilt it as John wrote, didn't he? Not 40 years later. Nothing to do with the physical temple. Sorry

Have a good night.
 
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mkgal1

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I think you got "the coming of the Lord of the Vineyard" seriously misunderstood. The "coming of the Lord of the Vineyard" is NOT the "second coming" in 70AD or the physical destruction of the temple itself. Not at all. It is the FIRST coming of Christ. Did the Jews know the visitation of Jesus Christ as their Lord of their vineyard, when they deal with him?

A certain man is obviously God Himself. He left the vineyard with husbandmen, the Jews of His Old Testament congregation. God checks with the Jews over time to see if they produce fruits by sending them judges and prophets. They will not listen to them and treated them badly. Then Lord of the vineyard decided to send His Son to the husbandmen, the Jews. Jesus Christ is actually the Lord of the vineyard Himself because He is God. He visited the Jews and they knew him not. Do you know what the Jews did to the Son of God? They rejected him and put him to death, thinking they do God's favor.

What do you think God (and Jesus as God Himself too) response to this? He will destroy Jews by taking the kingdom (vineyard) away from them and given to Gentiles Christians
Parousia70 and LLoJ are correct. There's a contradiction here (the chronology is off in your own story timeline)....and besides, you're overlooking that the first believers of Jesus were Jewish (so it's not accurate to say the kingdom was taken from them).
 
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mkgal1

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The judgment was right there at the Cross and in three days, Christ rebuilt it as John wrote, didn't he?
So why do we have this event occurring AFTER the cross (if your narrative is correct):

Acts of the apostles 2:
The Holy Spirit Comes
2 On the day of Pentecost all the believers were meeting together in one place.2 Suddenly, there was a sound from heaven like the roaring of a mighty windstorm, and it filled the house where they were sitting.3 Then, what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled on each of them.4 And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in other languages, as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability.

5 At that time there were devout Jews from every nation living in Jerusalem. 6 When they heard the loud noise, everyone came running, and they were bewildered to hear their own languages being spoken by the believers.

7 They were completely amazed. “How can this be?” they exclaimed. “These people are all from Galilee, 8 and yet we hear them speaking in our own native languages! 9 Here we are—Parthians, Medes, Elamites, people from Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, the province of Asia, 10 Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt, and the areas of Libya around Cyrene, visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism), Cretans, and Arabs. And we all hear these people speaking in our own languages about the wonderful things God has done!” 12 They stood there amazed and perplexed. “What can this mean?” they asked each other.

13 But others in the crowd ridiculed them, saying, “They’re just drunk, that’s all!”

Peter Preaches to the Crowd
14 Then Peter stepped forward with the eleven other apostles and shouted to the crowd, “Listen carefully, all of you, fellow Jews and residents of Jerusalem! Make no mistake about this. 15 These people are not drunk, as some of you are assuming. Nine o’clock in the morning is much too early for that. 16 No, what you see was predicted long ago by the prophet Joel:

17 ‘In the last days,’ God says,
‘I will pour out my Spirit upon all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
Your young men will see visions,
and your old men will dream dreams.
18 In those days I will pour out my Spirit
even on my servants—men and women alike—
and they will prophesy.
19 And I will cause wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below—
blood and fire and clouds of smoke.
20 The sun will become dark,
and the moon will turn blood red
before that great and glorious day of the Lord arrives.
21 But everyone who calls on the name of the Lord
will be saved.’

22 “People of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus the Nazarene by doing powerful miracles, wonders, and signs through him, as you well know. 23 But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him. 24 But God released him from the horrors of death and raised him back to life, for death could not keep him in its grip. 25 King David said this about him:

‘I see that the Lord is always with me.
I will not be shaken, for he is right beside me.
26 No wonder my heart is glad,
and my tongue shouts his praises!
My body rests in hope.
27 For you will not leave my soul among the dead
or allow your Holy One to rot in the grave.
28 You have shown me the way of life,
and you will fill me with the joy of your presence.’

29 “Dear brothers, think about this! You can be sure that the patriarch David wasn’t referring to himself, for he died and was buried, and his tomb is still here among us. 30 But he was a prophet, and he knew God had promised with an oath that one of David’s own descendants would sit on his throne. 31 David was looking into the future and speaking of the Messiah’s resurrection. He was saying that God would not leave him among the dead or allow his body to rot in the grave.

32 “God raised Jesus from the dead, and we are all witnesses of this. 33 Now he is exalted to the place of highest honor in heaven, at God’s right hand. And the Father, as he had promised, gave him the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us, just as you see and hear today.34 For David himself never ascended into heaven, yet he said,

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
35 until I humble your enemies,
making them a footstool under your feet.”’

36 “So let everyone in Israel know for certain that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, to be both Lord and Messiah!”

37 Peter’s words pierced their hearts, and they said to him and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?”

38 Peter replied, “Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 This promise is to you, to your children, and to those far away—all who have been called by the Lord our God.”40 Then Peter continued preaching for a long time, strongly urging all his listeners, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation!”

41 Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church that day—about 3,000 in all.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Of course, after Messiah, the Prince was cut off first. Not 40 years "grace period" or anything like that. The judgment was right there at the Cross and in three days, Christ rebuilt it as John wrote, didn't he? Not 40 years later. Nothing to do with the physical temple. Sorry
Have a good night.
Jesus, Jesus was the NC SPIRITUAL TEMPLE.
The OC Jews were the OC TEMPLE OF THE FLESH.

John 11:48
"If ever we may be letting Him thus, all shall be believing into Him, and shall be coming the Romans<4514> and they shall be taking away<142> of Us, and the Place and the Nation."

PHYSICAL TEMPLE

Matthew 24:1
And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.

Mark 13:1
And He going forth out of the Temple,
one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings

Luke 21:5
and of some saying concerning the Temple,
that to goodly stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>
.
Are you saying the full end of the age was at the Cross?instead of the destruction of the Temple in 70ad?

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4930> of the Age?

Mark 13
3 And of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives over against the Temple,
Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him according to own
4 Tell us! when these shall be?
and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> all these to be fully concluded<4931>.

Luke 21
7 They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher!
when then shall these be being?
And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?
 
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mkgal1

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The judgment was right there at the Cross and in three days, Christ rebuilt
In three days Jesus was resurrected - not "He rebuilt the church"!

Until 70 A.D. the early believers met each week in synogogues as recorded in the NT. Jewish and Gentile believers - side by side as "the new man in Christ" - the wall of hostility torn down (why is what God tore down being built back up?).
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Matthew 21:43
Therefore I am saying to ye, that the Kingdom of the God shall be being taken away<142> from Ye, and it shall be being given to a Nation doing the Fruits of it.

John 11:48
"If ever we may be letting Him thus, all shall be believing into Him, and shall be coming the Romans<4514> and they shall be taking away<142> of Us, and the Place and the Nation.
TribulationSigns said:
They rejected him and put him to death, thinking they do God's favor.
What do you think God (and Jesus as God Himself too) response to this? He will destroy Jews by taking the kingdom (vineyard) away from them and given to Gentiles Christians
TribulationSigns said:
The judgment was right there at the Cross and in three days, Christ rebuilt it as John wrote, didn't he?
That vineyard [temple and city] was still standing after the Cross and for 40yrs more up till 70ad.........

Isa 5:3
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes.
3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, [Revelation 14:19-20]
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,Did it bring forth wild grapes?
============================
Luke 23:30
"Then they shall be beginning to be saying to the mountains 'be falling upon us!' and to the hills 'cover us!'". [Hosea 10:8 Matthew 24:15]

Revelation 6:16
And they are saying to the mountains and the rocks
, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their g wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Rev 14:
19
So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20
And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

Lam 1:15
The Lord has trampled underfoot
all my mighty men in my midst;
He has called an assembly against me To crush my young men;
The Lord trampled as in a winepress.The virgin daughter of Judah.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Parousia70 and LLoJ are correct.

Hardly!

There's a contradiction here (the chronology is off in your own story timeline)....and besides, you're overlooking that the first believers of Jesus were Jewish (so it's not accurate to say the kingdom was taken from them).

LOL. The Lord of the Vineyard is a Jew? Or God for all Spiritual Jews, starting with Old Testament congregation, and then the New?
 
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TribulationSigns

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So why do we have this event occurring AFTER the cross (if your narrative is correct):

41 Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church that day—about 3,000 in all.

Think about it. The New Testament congregation have been empowered by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and 3,000 "Jews" were baptized and added but to which congregation? The Old or the New, humm? First the Jews, then the Gentiles, so why wait for the destructon physical temple in 70AD anyway? Therefore, the Old Testament congregation already fell before the Holy Spirit could commissioned the New Testament Congregation!
 
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TribulationSigns

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In three days Jesus was resurrected - not "He rebuilt the church"!

Tell us, what did Jesus talk about here?

John 2:19-21 KJV
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his body.
 
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TribulationSigns

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That vineyard [temple and city] was still standing after the Cross and for 40yrs more up till 70ad.........

No no no, read the Scripture:

Matthew 21:40-45 KJV
[40] When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
[41] They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
[42] Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
[43] Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
[44] And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
[45] And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

The vineyard is not a physical temple and city. It is CONGREGATION where husbandmen worked as a builder. A spiritual congregation. Please notice that the vineyard was NOT destroyed before let out unto other husbandmen. It as the wicked men being destroyed, not a physical temple. Selah!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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So why do we have this event occurring AFTER the cross (if your narrative is correct):
Acts 2:
Peter Preaches to the Crowd

18 In those days I will pour out my Spirit even on my servants—men and women alike— and they will prophesy. 19 And I will cause wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below—blood and fire and clouds of smoke. 20 The sun will become dark, and the moon will turn blood red before that great and glorious day of the Lord arrives
Great post and awesome chapter!

All of that is mention in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation......................

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.
Eze 32:7 When I put out your light, I will cover the heavens
and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, And the moon shall not give her light.

Joe 2:10 The earth quakes before them, The heavens tremble; The sun and moon grow dark, And the stars diminish their brightness.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD
Joel 3:15 The sun and moon will grow dark, And the stars will diminish their brightness

====================================
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4930> of the Age?

Matthew 24:29
Yet immediately after the tribulation of those days,
the sun shall be being darkened, and the moon not shall be giving the beam<5338> of her and the stars shall be falling from the heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be being shaken<4531>

Mark 13:
24 ‘But in those the days, after that tribulation, that the sun shall be being darkened, and the moon not shall be give her beam, 25 and the stars shall be falling out of the heavens,
and the powers the in the heavens shall be be being shaken

Luke 21:
25 ‘And shall be signs in sun, and moon, and stars, and on the land together anguish/distress of nations state of quandary, roaring of sea and of shaking/tempest 26 men fainting of heart from fear and apprehensiveness of the coming to the homed-land<3625>.
For the powers of the heavens shall be being shaken.

===========================
The SEVEN SEALS of Revelation study

Luke 21:11
“And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.

Revelation 6:12 And I saw when It opens up the sixth Seal and became a great earthquake and the Sun became black as hairy sackcloth, and the whole Moon became as blood, 13 and the Stars of the heaven fall to the land, as a fig-tree casting it's shriveled figs by a great wind being shaken.

Revelation 8:12
10 And the third Messenger trumpets;
And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

===================================
John 11:48
"If ever we may be letting Him thus, all shall be believing into Him, and shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away<142> of Us, and the Place and the Nation."


https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

The Sound Of The Trumpet


The Apostle Paul used the Roman military trumpet as a metaphor for spiritual battle. First-century historian Josephus wrote that the Roman army did nothing, except by trumpet signals. He listed three specific trumpet sounds, all of which can be devotionally applied.

The first trumpet was a signal to prepare to depart. "Now when they are to go out of their camp, the trumpet gives a sound."(1) The Bible believer should be ready to depart swiftly for any field of conflict as ordered, always ready to fight the good fight of faith (1 Tim. 6:12; 2 Tim. 4:7).

The second trumpet was a signal to form up: "Then do the trumpets sound again, to order them to get ready for the march."(1) At this stage, a believer should have on the whole armor of God. The Lord wants skilled warriors, lined up with others, who will do battle against the wiles of the Devil (Eph. 6:11).
The third trumpet sound was the order to march: "Then do the trumpets give a sound a third time, that they are to go out."(1)
Some have suggested that this is the equivalent of "the last trumpet" that Paul referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:52 concerning the Rapture of the church: Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (1 Cor. 15:51-52).
This trumpet may also point to the personal resolve of a believer to march out to serve Christ, to stand against all challenges to God's kingdom, and to be willing to endure hardships like a good soldier (2 Tim. 2:3).
Josephus also noted that before the army marched out, the soldiers raised their right hands high and shouted in martial fury, "We are ready!" Are you?
===========================================
Revelation 8: A Preterist Commentary | Revelation Revolution
The Roman Assault on Israel Began around the Feast of Trumpets Hence the Seven Trumpets of Revelation—Thus Began the Jewish War.

In A.D. 66 while Judea was aflame in bloodshed, riot and revolt, Rome responded by sending the 12th legion in addition to thousands of auxiliaries from neighboring kingdoms. These troops, as if orchestrated by God, arrived in Jerusalem in the Jewish month of Tishri, a month that begins with the Feast of Trumpets. Called the Day of Judgment, it is on this day that trumpets sound the somber days of atonement and final judgment (Leviticus 23:24, Numbers 29:1). Thus began the Jewish War.3
The A.D. 70 Doctrine View, Interpretation, Exposition and Commentary of Revelation 8: In Every Event that Fulfills the Seven Trumpets of Revelation an Audible Trumpet Sound Was Heard.
==========================================
Joshua 6 [7 Priests-7 trumpets-shofars] and Revelation [7 Messengers-7 trumpets]

Joshua 6
4
Have seven Priests carry seven trumpets of rams' horns in front of the Ark.
Then on the seventh day, march around the City seven times, while the Priests blow the trumpets.
13 Then seven Priests bearing seven trumpets of rams' horns before the Ark of the LORD went on continually and blew with the trumpets.
And the armed men went before Them.
But the rear guard came after the Ark of the LORD, while the Priests continued blowing the trumpets.

jerichowalls7priests.jpg


Revelation 8:
2
And I saw the seven Messengers which stood before God,
and to Them were given seven trumpets.
6 And the seven Messengers having the seven trumpets make ready Themselves that They should be trumpeting<4537>.

189274-seven-angels-with-seven-trumpets_md.gif


.........................................
 
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mkgal said:
Parousia70 and LLoJ are correct.
TS said:

mkgal said:
There's a contradiction here (the chronology is off in your own story timeline)....and besides, you're overlooking that the first believers of Jesus were Jewish (so it's not accurate to say the kingdom was taken from them).
TS said:
LOL. The Lord of the Vineyard is a Jew? Or God for all Spiritual Jews, starting with Old Testament congregation, and then the New?
There's so much to address in your posts, I hardly no where to begin.

First of all - you've been trying to assert the idea that "the Day of the Lord" (in the context of the parable of the vineyard) that was prophesied throughout Scripture happened IN FULL at the cross when you posted this:

TS said:
The judgment was right there at the Cross and in three days, Christ rebuilt it as John wrote, didn't he? Not 40 years later. Nothing to do with the physical temple. Sorry
........and you're ALSO asserting (as far as I can tell) that what Christ "rebuilt" wasn't His body being resurrected (His body - the dwelling place of God - the eternal Temple) as is Nicene Christianity - but you seem to be saying that He "rebuilt His congregation when you posted this:

TS said:
God did judge His Old Testament congregation and took the kingdom representative from them as a whole.

......but you've ALSO posted this in this very thread as well - placing the timing at Pentecost:

TS said:
The old testament congregation fell and in three days, Christ rebuilt it with New Testament congregation's inception on Pentecost.
Pentecost was 40 days after the resurrection. Not 3 days after the cross! You seem to be re-writing most of the Bible. You've seemed to manage to tear the biblical narrative apart and scramble the chronology so horribly that I'm having difficulty keeping up with you in order to attempt to put the pieces back in order.

Your answers ignore what's written in John 11:38 "then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation."

......and another thing: you seem to be presenting the erroneous "two people of God" theory. God so loved the WHOLE world. This two people of God ideology is what's causing so many horrible tragedies to arise in the world - where innocent people are being targeted and killed while praying in their synagogues. It's irresponsible (in my strong opinion).​
 
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TribulationSigns

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Pentecost was 40 days after the resurrection. Not 3! You seem to be re-writing most of the Bible. You've seemed to manage to tear the biblical narrative apart and scramble the chronology so horribly that I'm having difficulty keeping up with you in order to attempt to put the pieces back in order.​
You don't get it. Jesus Christ DID rebuild the congregation in three days but told His disciple to wait. For what? Great Commission with the power of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:4-5 KJV
[4] And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
[5] For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 1:7-8 KJV
[7] And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
[8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The Great Commssion of the The New Testament congregation already started at Pentecost. This is when the witnessing of the church begun. Jesus did not tell them to wait until the physical destruction of the temple before they can do anything! Selah!

Your answers ignore what's written in John 11:38 "then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation."​

What did I say about John 11:38 earlier? Didn't you read?


......and another thing: you seem to be presenting the erroneous "two people of God" theory. God so loved the WHOLE world.

Really, you think so? Did you actually READ Scripture, especially the context of infamous John 3:16?

John 3:16-17 KJV
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Do you NOT realize that NO ONE will believe because NO ONE will seek Christ WITHOUT the Spirit drawing them. Faith or belief is not something we have in ourselves, it is something given us in Christ

Hebrews 12:2 KJV
[2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

So then those who have faith to believe, those whom God loves, are those all over the world whom God GIVES the gifts of faith to believe:

Philippians 1:6 KJV
[6] Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Philippians 1:29 KJV
[29] For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

And thus, the world through Him believes and perseveres and "is" saved. I'm in total agreement with the witness of the word, not in disagreement with it. The rule for coming to sound exegesis of scripture is to never contradict "any" scripture. Scriptures don't duel with each other, they are in harmony. Men Duel with each other, misapplying and misusing scriptures.

Matthew 18:6-7 KJV
[6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
[7] Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Woe unto everyone in the world because of offenses against the children, or woe unto everyone who offends them in the world? Scripture must be harmonized. When it says God so loved the world, it also says God hates the workers of iniquity. That would be an obvious contradiction if we were to understand the world in this context the way you desire to understand it. But in understanding it in the way God uses it, we understand that God loves His people of the world and hates the workers of iniquity in the world. His words, not Mine. All we have to do is RECEIVE both statements in harmony with each other in the Spirit of truth.

Sorry to disappoint you but no, the "world" in John 3:16 means He came to save all kindreds, tongues and nations, universally. Not every single person of every tongue and nation. Selah!

Now try to think something else here. To exegete soundly!

1st John 3:13
  • "Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you."
Again, it is the SAME Greek word [kosmos]. The world hates Christians. That is to say, the unsaved universally hate Christians. Clearly, it is not everyone in the world hates Christians, but it illustrates the unsaved world only. Thus it is improper to declare that the word world means everyone in the world when it obviously doesn't always mean that. There is one world of people that Christ came to save (His People Mt 1:21), and one world that will never find redemption and are destined (Jude 1:4) for hell.

Get it? :)
 
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mkgal1

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You don't get it. Jesus Christ DID rebuild the congregation in three days but told His disciple to wait.
You're right - I *don't* get the narrative you're trying to present. It doesn't make sense at all.

Just keep on re-writing your own biblical narrative (it's as if you're making it up freestyle as we move through this thread). When an obvious hole is pointed out- you just seem to dodge and move on to a whole other riff (with a whole lot of extraneous and disconnected text). But just remember your prior chronology that you've left holes in, before you'd moved on.

You stated that the judgment at the cross (still not sure what you're claiming that was - since this is YOUR story you're authoring, that I've NEVER heard of) was IN RESPONSE to the death of Jesus. How can His first arrival (what you are calling the Day of the Lord) be a response to something that happened 33 years later (His death on the cross)? The pins you've pushed in on the timeline are all over the place (His advent; the cross; in response to the cross, but during the cross; 3 days later, at the same time, 40 days after His resurrection).
 
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mkgal1

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Really, you think so? Did you actually READ Scripture, especially the context of infamous John 3:16?

John 3:16-17 KJV
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Do you NOT realize that NO ONE will believe because NO ONE will seek Christ WITHOUT the Spirit drawing them. Faith or belief is not something we have in ourselves, it is something given us in Christ
This is probably the root of where we disagree. I don't believe that God incarnated and died on a cross for just a few chosen people (and I'm not interested in debating that - especially in this thread where it's off topic).
 
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mkgal1

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Jesus Christ DID rebuild the congregation in three days
.....and I'll repeat the question I've asked when you originally presented this idea. How so? What are you basing this idea on that He "rebuilt the CONGREGATION"? What did that look like?

Before His death, at the foot of the cross were Mary (His mother); Mary Magdalene; and John the Beloved; and Mary (wife of Clopas); Mary's sister (Salome). Just looking at this small group of people - how did they change AFTER the cross?

"Rebuild", to me, means torn down and begin again. What's YOUR definition of "rebuild"?
 
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TribulationSigns

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You're right - I *don't* get the narrative you're trying to present. It doesn't make sense at all.

It does not make sense at all to you is exactly why you don't get it.

You stated that the judgment at the cross (still not sure what you're claiming that was - since this is YOUR story you're authoring, that I've NEVER heard of) was IN RESPONSE to the death of Jesus. How can His first arrival (what you are calling the Day of the Lord) be a response to something that happened 33 years later (His death on the cross)? The pins you've pushed in on the timeline are all over the place (His advent; the cross; in response to the cross, but during the cross; 3 days later, at the same time, 40 days after His resurrection).

No, that is why you "don't" get it because you are looking at things all wrong.

Observe:

Daniel 9:25 KJV
[25] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The words, 'know therefore' ties the preceding verses with these verses. It's just as if I were to say, 'The skies are cloudy, know therefore that there may be rain.' The first part of the sentence is intimately related to the second part. Likewise, 'know therefore' shows that the preceding verses are intimately related to the following verses. Let see what verse 24 says:

Daniel 9:24 KJV
[24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Now tell me when do you "think" verse 25 said Messiah the Prince had come? Was it at His birth, His Baptism? His Crucifixion? Or His resurrection? Do you know?

Here is the hint:

Luke 4:18-21 KJV
[18] The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
[19] To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
[20] And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
[21] And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

God anointed His son, Messiah the Prince, as the Holy of HOLIEST? (remember, this is what Daniel says. It's 62 X 7 after the 7 x7 to the coming of Messiah the Prince). When We go to the scriptures, we see that this is the exact year that Christ officially began His role as High Priest. 29AD was the year He was Anointed by the Holy Spirit and was 'announced' and baptized by John the Baptist. This is when God had the dove descend upon Him, and of His officially taking on His office. This is the year when (as it was written), John, having prepared the way, gave way to Christ. John had prepared the way for this, 'His Coming!'

This is why John said that now he had to decrease, while Christ increased. This is why Jesus said, 'the TIME is fulfilled, the Kingdom of God is at hand.' This is the acceptable year, this is the time of His anointing. Then later in 33AD, the Jews rejected Him and put him to death, that was the judgment of the Old Testament Congregation and the kingdom was taken from them as their congregation (that the temple and the city represented) fell. Nothing to do with physical temple and city 40 years later.
 
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This is probably the root of where we disagree. I don't believe that God incarnated and died on a cross for just a few chosen people (and I'm not interested in debated that - especially in this thread where it's off topic).

Not surprised. :)
 
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.....and I'll repeat the question I've asked when you originally presented this idea. How so? What are you basing this idea on that He "rebuilt the CONGREGATION"? What did that look like? Before His death, at the foot of the cross were Mary (His mother); Mary Magdalene; and John the Beloved; and Mary (wife of Clopas); Mary's sister (Salome). Just looking at this small group of people - how did they change AFTER the cross?

"Rebuild", to me, means torn down and begin again. What's YOUR definition of "rebuild"?

You are funny. Will you, at least, TRY to read the CONTEXT of the verse?

John 2:13-22 KJV
[13] And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
[14] And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
[15] And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
[16] And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
[17] And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
[18] Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his body.
[22] When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Now tell me, what is the temple of his body? Is it a physical temple, or His congregation? The people whom Christ kicked out of the temple? However, you may answer depends on how you understood it like His disciples! Notice it said in verse 22, "therefore he has risen from the dead" and the disciples did know what the temple of Christ's body really about! Right there when Christ resurrected! Nothing to do with fallen physical temple some 40 years later!

The "change" did not affect people physically or anything, only that they simple translated from Old Testament congregation into the New Testament congregation as the kingdom representative was transferred between the two. And they have received the power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost to bring Gospel to the world, first the Jews, then the Gentiles. No need to wait for physical temple to be destroyed! The New Testament congregation already commissioned in 33AD! Selah!
 
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