Can the Church Survive Without God's Word?

Michael Collum said:

That does give me an idea, as I am listening to my MP3 bible, I might do it blindfolded .. it might increase my concentration.

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Listen for the commands in the New Testament.

Side Note:

I am not talking about the Old Testament Law. We are under a New Covenant with New Commands. Hebrews 7:12 says the law has changed.

Jason0047 said:

Listen for the commands in the New Testament.

Side Note:

I am not talking about the Old Testament Law. We are under a New Covenant with New Commands. Hebrews 7:12 says the law has changed.

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You are applying the new testament teachings like it is the old testament law.

James further illustrates that the new law is a nature that lives within us.

Michael Collum said:

The Kingdom is not about talk, it is about power. The teachings themselves are kind of useless if you don't live them out and experience the reality of said kingdom.

The bible makes it simple, to be in a right relationship with God, we need to trust Him.

Over time, God cultivates love in us until it is matured to the point where we have boldness on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like Him.

The approach in the quoted post seeks to reach the goal by cleaning the outside of the cup, what I'm looking at is cleaning the inside of the cup, trusting as Jesus said, this will clean the outside also.

Trust,faith,belief also needs to be reflected in the interpretation and application of scripture. When it's about following rules and commandments, this is compensating for a lack of faith. However, without faith, it is impossible to please God.

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If you don’t know what commands are in the New Testament, then how can you live out the teachings of the Kingdom?

Jason0047 said:

If you don’t know what commands are in the New Testament, then how can you live out the teachings of the Kingdom?

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Jesus replaced the law, the law was nailed to the cross.

Since Jesus is living within those who are born again, it's part of who we are.

The bible is a nice to have, but we'd all figure it out eventually anyway.

Michael Collum said:

You are applying the new testament teachings like it is the old testament law.

James further illustrates that the new law is a nature that lives within us.

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Scripture please.
Also, do you think you will just automatically obey the 600 plus commands in the New Testament without personal study and application? If you did a study like that, I promise, you would not think that. Again, this appears to be a position of ignoring what the Bible is actually teaching. Why would the New Testament have all these commands for the believer if they are not for us to obey? It makes no sense.

Michael Collum said:

Jesus replaced the law, the law was nailed to the cross.

Since Jesus is living within those who are born again, it's part of who we are.

The bible is a nice to have, but we'd all figure it out eventually anyway.

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No. This was the Old Law. Not the New Law.

We are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6).

Jason0047 said:

Scripture please.
Also, do you think you will just automatically obey the 600 plus commands in the New Testament without personal study and application? If you did a study like that, I promise, you would not think that. Again, this appears to be a position of ignoring what the Bible is actually teaching. Why would the New Testament have all these commands for the believer if they are not for us to obey? It makes no sense.

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This is the difference between studying the scriptures with faith, and studying the scriptures according to carnal logic, it's not supposed to make sense.

There's a different way of doing things for people who are born again, and different for those born into church families, but didn't get born again.

Jason0047 said:

No. This was the Old Law. Not the New Law.

We are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

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Exactly, the letter is the oldness, the newness of spirit is the Holy Spirit indwelling and leading into all truth.

Michael Collum said:

This is the difference between studying the scriptures with faith, and studying the scriptures according to carnal logic, it's not supposed to make sense.

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No. GOD is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33).

You said:

There's a different way of doing things for people who are born again, and different for those born into church families, but didn't get born again.

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Try reading 1 John 2:29.

Jason0047 said:

No. GOD is not the author of confusion.

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For the church, but to the ungodly He totally authored confusion in Babel.

Jason0047 said:

Try reading 1 John 2:29.

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The righteous live by faith, to doeth righteousness, it is your work to believe.

Michael Collum said:

Exactly, the letter is the oldness, the newness of spirit is the Holy Spirit indwelling and leading into all truth.

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No. It says we are to SERVE in newness of the Spirit. Romans 8:1 says,

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
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Key words are walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

A believer has a choice of living one way (which leads to death) vs. living another way (which leads to life).

Michael Collum said:

For the church, but to the ungodly He totally authored confusion in Babel.




The righteous live by faith, to doeth righteousness, it is your work to believe.

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Still doesn’t help you. God is still not the author of confusion (which contradicts your previous statement).

You also do not seem concerned in the “Do righteousness part” by what you said earlier.

Jason0047 said:

No. It says we are to SERVE in newness of the Spirit. Romans 8:1 says,

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
‭‭
Key words are walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

A believer has a choice of living one way (which leads to death) vs. living another way (which leads to life).

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I kind of see the way of interpreting in the above post is according to the flesh.

Which is why I tend to disagree with stuff that is said.

Even the devil can quote scripture, so one must discern.

Jason0047 said:

Still doesn’t help you. God is still not the author of confusion (which contradicts your previous statement).

You also do not seem concerned in the “Do righteousness part” by what you said earlier.

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Wrong. Both statements have scripture, the correct attitude is to not let scripture contradict scripture and see what both point to.

See also 2 Thessalonians 2:11 and Romans 3:4

Jason0047 said:

You also do not seem concerned in the “Do righteousness part” by what you said earlier.

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This has more to do with a trust based approach. I trust God with that.

Michael Collum said:

We learn how to act from our mom and dad, and socializing, on a spiritual level, we learn by being intimate with God and learning new things on a heart level.

Saying it is the scripture that teaches us how to act implies we are robots to be programmed, through mind control, thus cult theology.

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This has to do with Cult theology how?

Philip_B said:

This is sort of like the Israel Folau defence if you follow Rugby League in Australia. The proposition is that the right to religious freedom is overarching, and that an employer does not have a right to inhibit that in any way. In this case it is a sporting body that has embraced an inclusiveness code of conduct an a very gifted player who having been formally warned about anti-gay posts on social media, has indeed done it again. The Sporting Body has chosen to end the contract for the breach ($4Million a year to kick a football) which some are arguing is in breach of his freedom of religion which is in some sense enshrined in the constitution.

In your case that argument is for something that you declare to be an absolute truth - that is something that is true for all people for all time. A failure to express a concern for those who are hurt by such a standard is to my mind in conflict with the message of scripture.

I am not convinced that Jesus held to absolutes in this way, and that may be part of the message of the account of picking wheat on the sabbath - Mark 2:23-28.

And indeed I think in a way Paul argues for what may later come to be understood as a position of philosophical pragmatism, understand truth as the best answer we have at the moment, whilst acknowledging there may be a better answer at some later stage - see 1 Corinthians 13:12-13.

Yet also the write of the Johannine Epistles also in a way moves in a similar direction suggesting very clearly that as yet we do not have all the answers - 1 John 3:1-2

Standing on absolutes and ignoring the consequential damage to human beings made in the image and after the likeness of God - see Genesis 1:26-27 - is more like the lawyer and the priest and less like the samaritan - see Luke 10:25-37

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Just to clarify friend do we agree Christ holds the absolute on He is the ONLY WAY?

Michael Collum said:

I kind of see the way of interpreting in the above post is according to the flesh.

Which is why I tend to disagree with stuff that is said.

Even the devil can quote scripture, so one must discern.

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Again, you don't know the commands in the New Testament. Yet, you expect me to believe that my focusing on the NT Commands is carnal even though you do not even know what all of them are? Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

As for the enemy: 1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil. The breaking of the law is sin (1 John 3:4). Do you believe you can break God's laws and still be saved because you think you are not under any of God's laws salvation wise? Does a belief in Jesus truly save you alone? I challenge you to look at the verses below in light of that wrong belief.

For the Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

Michael Collum said:

This has more to do with a trust based approach. I trust God with that.

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That doesn't sound like the Bible, though.

"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls" (James 1:21).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

Michael Collum said:

Wrong. Both statements have scripture, the correct attitude is to not let scripture contradict scripture and see what both point to.

See also 2 Thessalonians 2:11 and Romans 3:4

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When the Bible talks about how God is not the author of confusion, it is in context or view to God's good ways and people. You said before that your version of studying the Scriptures by faith is confusing. This would not be in view of unbelievers being punished like in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 or those who refused to obey God like at the tower of babel. Even unbelievers were not given the meaning of Jesus's parables. To them, it would have been confusion. They do not understand the mysteries of God's kingdom. But these are unbelievers and not believers.

Again, what you stated before was not in line with the truth of God's Word. God is not the author of confusion when it comes to his saints or followers.