100% going to heaven vs sometimes doubtful of it. Who is the correct person?

dqhall · May 3, 2019

NothingIsImpossible said:
Who is more correct in their view?
A. A person who knows without a doubt they are 100% going to heaven.
B. A person who sometimes has doubts about it?

May seem like an obvious answer of A is the right choice as they are sure they know where they are going. But the bible does say many will stand before Him and He will say "Go away, I do not know you." This is why I feel person B is more correct. Many people sometimes have doubts or worries. It's normal.

But often I find people A to be "holier than thou", judgemental, self-righteous...etc. The kind of people that the bible says often are knocked down from their perch of being so sure of themselves. They often say they never screw up, brag about their works and how perfect they are in Christ. Never show humility...etc. Like "Well I have never done <insert sin>, you must not believe enough if you have issue sometimes!".

Admiteddly whatever the case I don't even know, only God does. But I'd rather sometimes question myself than pretend I am perfect. I never even pretend to be perfect. If someone needs reproof I openly admit my imperfections so they see I'm not just pointing out the speck in their eye while ignoring my log. To me this is the best way to help someone. Being perfect just puts up defenses and comes across as dangerous in my mind.

Jesus taught his disciples to pray. In the "Lord's Prayer," Jesus said, "On earth as it is in heaven." While some people wish for salvation after death, it is more important to look for God's direction today.

Believers will become aware of God's instruction and times of salvation in this world. To be sure about tomorrow is not a part of finishing out the day.

CodyFaith · May 3, 2019

PaulCyp1 · May 3, 2019

A person can be sure they are going to Heaven if they die today, assuming they have been living as God calls them to live, as revealed by Jesus Christ. But no-one can predict the future.

CodyFaith · May 3, 2019

Only way you can be certain you are going to Heaven is if you acknowledge Christ's sacrifice for past, present and future sins, and reflect on the shedding of his blood that saved you if you are indeed saved.

All this "I'm doing really good at following Jesus so I must be saved" stuff is just false beliefs/emotions you're producing in yourselves. Your works or perseverance have zilch to do with whether you are saved besides the fact that a saved person will produce good fruit. But you don't look to your own fruit and say "ah, yes, thanks for saving me good fruit", you look to whether you are founded on the Rock that is Jesus' shed blood.

aiki · May 3, 2019

NothingIsImpossible said:
Who is more correct in their view?
A. A person who knows without a doubt they are 100% going to heaven.
B. A person who sometimes has doubts about it?

I've not read the entire thread, so forgive me if I double-up on what others have already pointed out.

The Bible is very clear that we can know - for sure - that we are saved. It's not a guessing game, or a won't-know-til-I-get-there sort of thing. The apostle John wrote,

1 John 5:13
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

The apostle Paul also wrote,

2 Corinthians 13:5
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified.

Why would Paul write this if being in the faith - being saved - was impossible to be sure of this side of the grave? Paul seems to be very certain that one can know that one is - in the present - in God's kingdom.

The Bible offers signs indicating a person's saved state:

1 John 3:14
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

1 John 4:15-16
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

Romans 8:16
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God...

And so on. It is always a strange thing to me to hear Christians say they don't know if they are going to meet a Heavenly Father or a wrathful Judge at the Final Judgment. I know I'm saved. God's Spirit does bear witness with mine that I am his. My life does bear the "peaceable fruit of righteousness," I do love the fellowship of other believers, I delight in God's word, I love my Saviour. According to Scripture, these are some of the marks of a genuinely born-again believer. Why, then, should I wonder endlessly about my spiritual state?

NothingIsImpossible said:
May seem like an obvious answer of A is the right choice as they are sure they know where they are going. But the bible does say many will stand before Him and He will say "Go away, I do not know you." This is why I feel person B is more correct. Many people sometimes have doubts or worries. It's normal.

The story in Matthew 7 explains exactly how to avoid the fate of those in the story. Many "Christians" will stand before Christ at the Final Judgment and find themselves cast away as strangers but not because there was some secret knowledge they didn't possess or some hidden rule they didn't follow.

Doubts and worries may afflict the new believer but they should be relatively short-lived, I think. The more one walks with God, truly walks with Him in love and joy, the more difficult it is for doubt to find purchase in one's thinking. My relationship with my wife is, by God's grace, a very good one. And because it is, I don't find myself wondering about the genuineness of our relationship or her love for me. So, too, with God. The better my walk with Him is, the more doubt is crowded out. The flip side of this is, though, that chronic doubt is a signal something is awry between me and God.

NothingIsImpossible said:
But often I find people A to be "holier than thou", judgemental, self-righteous...etc. The kind of people that the bible says often are knocked down from their perch of being so sure of themselves.

Is your experience necessarily true across-the-board for all "type A" believers? I think that would be an unreasonable conclusion to make. I know plenty of people who fall into the "type B" category who are quite self-righteous about their uncertainty, taking pride in the "humility" they show in refusing to speak of their salvation with any assurance. Would I be right, then, to think all "type B" folk are this way? No. This extrapolating from the few to the many is the kind of thinking that gives rise to racism and bigotry.

NothingIsImpossible said:
But I'd rather sometimes question myself than pretend I am perfect.

It is not required that one believe one is perfect in order to believe one is truly saved.

NothingIsImpossible said:
I never even pretend to be perfect.

Is there something noble about a person admitting that they suck? Is it a better thing to be perennially confessing one's failures, never growing into spiritual maturity and a holier life?

NothingIsImpossible said:
If someone needs reproof I openly admit my imperfections so they see I'm not just pointing out the speck in their eye while ignoring my log.

You forget the log and speck analogy. It isn't the man who admits he has a log in his eye who is free to take the speck out of his brother's eye; it is the man who has removed the log from his own eye who can then see to take the speck from his brother's eye. It is not the one who merely acknowledges his failures who has done right but the one who does something about his failures to prevent them happening again in the future.

GraceBro · May 3, 2019

NothingIsImpossible said:
Who is more correct in their view?
A. A person who knows without a doubt they are 100% going to heaven.
B. A person who sometimes has doubts about it?

May seem like an obvious answer of A is the right choice as they are sure they know where they are going. But the bible does say many will stand before Him and He will say "Go away, I do not know you." This is why I feel person B is more correct. Many people sometimes have doubts or worries. It's normal.

But often I find people A to be "holier than thou", judgemental, self-righteous...etc. The kind of people that the bible says often are knocked down from their perch of being so sure of themselves. They often say they never screw up, brag about their works and how perfect they are in Christ. Never show humility...etc. Like "Well I have never done <insert sin>, you must not believe enough if you have issue sometimes!".

Admiteddly whatever the case I don't even know, only God does. But I'd rather sometimes question myself than pretend I am perfect. I never even pretend to be perfect. If someone needs reproof I openly admit my imperfections so they see I'm not just pointing out the speck in their eye while ignoring my log. To me this is the best way to help someone. Being perfect just puts up defenses and comes across as dangerous in my mind.

C. What God says about those who have placed faith in Jesus Christ.

Whether one is "holier than thou, judgemental, [or] self-righteous" or doubts is secondary to the truth and your response to it.

"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:11-13

"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." John 10:28

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:13-14

"...who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:5

"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." John 6:39

Be blessed.

timewerx · May 3, 2019

NothingIsImpossible said:
Who is more correct in their view?
A. A person who knows without a doubt they are 100% going to heaven.
B. A person who sometimes has doubts about it?

May seem like an obvious answer of A is the right choice as they are sure they know where they are going. But the bible does say many will stand before Him and He will say "Go away, I do not know you." This is why I feel person B is more correct. Many people sometimes have doubts or worries. It's normal.

But often I find people A to be "holier than thou", judgemental, self-righteous...etc. The kind of people that the bible says often are knocked down from their perch of being so sure of themselves. They often say they never screw up, brag about their works and how perfect they are in Christ. Never show humility...etc. Like "Well I have never done <insert sin>, you must not believe enough if you have issue sometimes!".

Admiteddly whatever the case I don't even know, only God does. But I'd rather sometimes question myself than pretend I am perfect. I never even pretend to be perfect. If someone needs reproof I openly admit my imperfections so they see I'm not just pointing out the speck in their eye while ignoring my log. To me this is the best way to help someone. Being perfect just puts up defenses and comes across as dangerous in my mind.

It's more like option B.

This verse for it:

Luke 18:13-14
But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”…

There's a catch however.... If you are intentionally/deliberately humbling yourself for the sake of going to heaven, the action might be interpreted as manipulation - trying to manipulate God.

Humility is something one desires out of a change heart, not one does in order to be saved.

Loyce KG · May 3, 2019

aiki said:
I've not read the entire thread, so forgive me if I double-up on what others have already pointed out.

The Bible is very clear that we can know - for sure - that we are saved. It's not a guessing game, or a won't-know-til-I-get-there sort of thing. The apostle John wrote,

1 John 5:13
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

The apostle Paul also wrote,

2 Corinthians 13:5
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified.

Why would Paul write this if being in the faith - being saved - was impossible to be sure of this side of the grave? Paul seems to be very certain that one can know that they are - in the present - in God's kingdom.

The Bible offers signs indicating a person's saved state:

1 John 3:14
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

1 John 4:15-16
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

Romans 8:16
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God...

And so on. It is always a strange thing to me to hear Christians say they don't know if they are going to meet a Heavenly Father or a wrathful Judge at the Final Judgment. I know I'm saved. God's Spirit does bear witness with mine that I am his. My life does bear the "peaceable fruit of righteousness," I do love the fellowship of other believers, I delight in God's word, I love my Saviour. According to Scripture, these are some of the marks of a genuinely born-again believer. Why, then, should I wonder endlessly about my spiritual state?

The story in Matthew 7 explains exactly how to avoid the fate of those in the story. Many "Christians" will stand before Christ at the Final Judgment and find themselves cast away as strangers but not because there was some secret knowledge they didn't possess or some hidden rule they didn't follow.

Doubts and worries may afflict the new believer but they should be relatively short-lived, I think. The more one walks with God, truly walks with Him in love and joy, the more difficult it is for doubt to find purchase in one's thinking. My relationship with my wife is, by God's grace, a very good one. And because it is, I don't find myself wondering about the genuineness of our relationship or her love for me. So, too, with God. The better my walk with Him is, the more doubt is crowded out. The flip side of this is, though, that chronic doubt is a signal something is awry between me and God.

Is your experience necessarily true across-the-board for all "type A" believers? I think that would be an unreasonable conclusion to make. I know plenty of people who fall into the "type B" category who are quite self-righteous about their uncertainty, taking pride in the "humility" they show in refusing to speak of their salvation with any assurance. Would I be right, then, to think all "type B" folk are this way? No. This extrapolating from the few to the many is the kind of thinking that gives rise to racism and bigotry.

It is not required that one believe one is perfect in order to believe one is truly saved.

Is there something noble about a person admitting that they suck? Is it a better thing to be perennially confessing one's failures, never growing into spiritual maturity and a holier life?

You forget the log and speck analogy. It isn't the man who admits he has a log in his eye who is free to take the speck out of his brother's eye; it is the man who has removed the log from his own eye who can then see to take the speck from his brother's eye. It is not the one who merely acknowledges his failures who has done right but the one who does something about his failures to prevent them happening again in the future.

Thvak you for writing this. Couldn't have said it better

Loyce KG · May 3, 2019

NothingIsImpossible said:
Who is more correct in their view?
A. A person who knows without a doubt they are 100% going to heaven.
B. A person who sometimes has doubts about it?

May seem like an obvious answer of A is the right choice as they are sure they know where they are going. But the bible does say many will stand before Him and He will say "Go away, I do not know you." This is why I feel person B is more correct. Many people sometimes have doubts or worries. It's normal.

But often I find people A to be "holier than thou", judgemental, self-righteous...etc. The kind of people that the bible says often are knocked down from their perch of being so sure of themselves. They often say they never screw up, brag about their works and how perfect they are in Christ. Never show humility...etc. Like "Well I have never done <insert sin>, you must not believe enough if you have issue sometimes!".

Admiteddly whatever the case I don't even know, only God does. But I'd rather sometimes question myself than pretend I am perfect. I never even pretend to be perfect. If someone needs reproof I openly admit my imperfections so they see I'm not just pointing out the speck in their eye while ignoring my log. To me this is the best way to help someone. Being perfect just puts up defenses and comes across as dangerous in my mind.

Witgiut the assurance of salvation,Christianity would be no different from the rest of the religions in the world. Only Christianity teaches that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not of works,lest no man should boast (Eph 2:8-9).
Eternal life is God's gift to those who believe in His Son (Romans 6:23).
It is a gift we don't deserve (Romans 3:23, 5:8) and cannot earn for our righteousness is like filthy rags unto Him (Isaiah 64:6).
God's gifts are irrevocable (Romans 11:29).
Those who believe and repent are saved.

“For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:15-16‬ ‭NKJV‬

We walk by faith And this produces works-works borne of love. Without faith,it is impossible to please God (Heb 11). It is by our fruit that we are judged whether we abide in Him or not.

To presume that category A is a self-righteous one, is not right. Am assured of salvation and this gives me the confidence and humility to pursue Christ and live for Hum only-for the price He paid was too precious and high to take for granted.

Not David · May 3, 2019

OP, it is good to remember that we are in a relationship with God, and a relationship is something you workout every day.

Not David · May 3, 2019

Chris V++ said:
I think its more an Orthodox belief, and at one time they were in communion with the RCC, but I 'm not sure what to make of it exactly. They also have a different take on hell, from what I understand , that those who are suffering in Hell will bein God's presence and experience His Love as burning torture, but that doesn't seem to sync with Jesus saying 'depart from me' which suggests the opposite.

The Bible also says that there is nowhere God isn't present. The "depart from me" can mean the same thing about not experiencing His love in a pleasant way because they want nothing to do with God.

The Righterzpen · May 4, 2019

I think both (assured and doubters) can be right for the right reasons as well as wrong, on account of the wrong reasons.

"Assured" are either legitimately saved and trusting in the atonement, or they are deceived and think they are redeemed. These are the people Jesus says: "Depart from me you workers of iniquity - I never knew you." We know these people believed they were redeemed and were not, by what they say to Jesus.

Matthew 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

"Doubters" may be weak in faith; or they too may be unredeemed, because they know enough about the Scriptures to know those who commit certain sins - this is evidence of their not being redeemed in the first place. Usually too, those who are "redeemed doubters" are also usually afraid of facing God's wrath.

The Wrath of God:

To be under judgement is depicted by two different "explanations" in the Scripture.

1. Sheol = hell
2. lake of fire = final judgement.

The lake of fire is usually associated with the Valley of Gehenna.

Sheol is a "holding place" for deceased souls. There is torment in Sheol.

Some have hypothesis that Sheol had 2 parts. A top part "called Abraham's bosom" and a bottom part. I don't know if Scripture clearly delineates this, but I think the theory is reasonable. The theory is that once Christ died, all those who departed in faith from the time of Adam to the cross where released from Sheol (Abraham's bosom) and ascended to the 3rd heaven.

These are the "Spirits in prison" that Jesus preached to because as part of the atonement He was assigned there with them. "You haven not left my soul in hell, nor allowed Your holy one to see corruption." Those who've participated in the first resurrection (redemption) the second death (the final judgement) has no power over.

When believers die now, they go strait into "under the alter" which I also believe is part of the "new Jerusalem" in the 3rd heaven and await their resurrected bodies.

And because of this, (going directly to the 3rd heaven) is where I don't see any possibility of redemption after death.

GodsGrace101 · May 4, 2019

Chris V++ said:
I remember hearing a sermon that hell was derived from gehenna which was a trash dump where trash was burned outside the city. Gehenna - Wikipedia This sort of fits with the idea of tares being thrown into the fire (trash heap) According to wikipedia the Jews believed it to be the destination of the wicked, not the same as hades. I can see how hell and lower earth could refer to the same place. When I think of lower earth I think of volcanic activity/ lava.

Sounds right to me.
Hades is more related to the place in Luke 16 where the lost were in one part of the chasm and those saved and waiting for the resurrection were on the other side in Abraham's Bossom.

The Jews referred to Hades, Gehenna, and sheoul --when these were translated there was no word for them so the word "hell" was used for all three.

But, as you've stated, there is a difference.
2 Peter 2:4 used the word tartarus which can be translated as hell.

GodsGrace101 · May 4, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
I must be a fluke or some abnormal creation. I don't doubt that God will take me to heaven. I believe in His mercy and depend on His help every day. That doesn't make me better than anyone. "I am blessed," would be a better statement.

You're not a fluke...
It's just that some believe that somewhere down the line they might abandon God...not that this is common; it's just a possibility.

And it's those persons that believe they can be saved and then even return to a life of sin and they'd STILL be saved that tend to be a little, proud, let's say.

I believe the rest of us might feel a bit more humble in God's presence. Humble, but loved.

J.P. Zaleta · May 4, 2019

NothingIsImpossible said:
Who is more correct in their view?
A. A person who knows without a doubt they are 100% going to heaven.
B. A person who sometimes has doubts about it?

May seem like an obvious answer of A is the right choice as they are sure they know where they are going. But the bible does say many will stand before Him and He will say "Go away, I do not know you." This is why I feel person B is more correct. Many people sometimes have doubts or worries. It's normal.

But often I find people A to be "holier than thou", judgemental, self-righteous...etc. The kind of people that the bible says often are knocked down from their perch of being so sure of themselves. They often say they never screw up, brag about their works and how perfect they are in Christ. Never show humility...etc. Like "Well I have never done <insert sin>, you must not believe enough if you have issue sometimes!".

Admiteddly whatever the case I don't even know, only God does. But I'd rather sometimes question myself than pretend I am perfect. I never even pretend to be perfect. If someone needs reproof I openly admit my imperfections so they see I'm not just pointing out the speck in their eye while ignoring my log. To me this is the best way to help someone. Being perfect just puts up defenses and comes across as dangerous in my mind.

Hello nothingisimpossible, greetings all

To air is human…to boast is Christian.

Neither position is more correct than the other.
It depends upon our perspective,
sometimes boasting is required, sometimes humbleness.
We all second guess every major decision we make.

If doubt arises about anything, our decision for example,
it gives us an opportunity to examine ourselves.
Should I be doubting what ever it is?
Why am I doubting it? Do I want to believe it?

When I find reason to doubt,
then there is no reason to continue to believe.
When I find proof to believe then I know for sure it is true.
Thomas got a chance to stick his figure in the wound.

Examining our doubts will strengthen our faith.

Side thought. Look at the verse that you quoted,
most people take that as an actual literal description
of the final judgment. Is it?

Starting with the premise, there are no liars in heaven.
Christianity 101. God is all powerful all knowing.
Wouldn’t saying he didn’t know them be a lie?
Shouldn’t He be saying, “I knew that from the beginning,
you were a pack of lying, stealing murders?”

OK. What about the good guys, saying,
they did not know they were doing it for Him?
Wouldn’t that be a lie if they read the bible?

The only ones that seemingly are speaking the truth
are the ones that didn't do anything for him
because they said, "we never saw you."

Which is true they never did see Jesus
in what they were doing.

I think what is going on here is more parable verses
then literal description of the final judgment.
Jesus said he only spoke in parables to the people
so they would not understand and come to Him.

Appears to be odd for Him to say that.
But if they heard and understood
they would be coming under their own power.

Their works would be getting them saved,
not the grace of Jesus without the need for works.
Jesus is our complete package, our ticket to eternity,
without works on our part.

One final thought. If it's the final judgment
where are the unbelievers? Are we saying
the unbelievers are the people that didn't see Jesus?
It seems like there should a place for them at the judgement.
Just a thought.

God bless
JP

Basil the Great · May 4, 2019

Only God knows the fate of every human soul. We might think that we know, but we are not God. We do not have the right to judge others or ourselves. Only God has that right.

His student · May 4, 2019

NothingIsImpossible said:
Who is more correct in their view?
A. A person who knows without a doubt they are 100% going to heaven.
B. A person who sometimes has doubts about it?

Many people sometimes have doubts or worries. It's normal.

The person who has cast all of their hope for Heaven completely on the work of Jesus Christ and abandoned any view which makes him worthy of Heaven in and of himself - should hold position "A" and would be completely right about it. He would merely be exhibiting saving faith.

But you are correct that the faith of every one of us is bound to waiver at times.

NothingIsImpossible said:
.................the bible does say many will stand before Him and He will say "Go away, I do not know you." This is why I feel person B is more correct.

Actually - the passage says, "Go away, I NEVER knew you."

The kind of persons who are going to point to his or her works for their justification (as the persons in the scripture passage you refer to do) have good reason to doubt their salvation. They would do well to re-examine their supposed "faith" in light of the gospel of grace.

NothingIsImpossible said:
But often I find people A to be "holier than thou", judgemental, self-righteous...etc.

I have seldom met a person who believes that they are saved by grace, in spite of their lack of holiness in and of themselves, who presented themselves as holier than thou, judgemental, or self righteous.

On the other hand I have met many of the kind in the passage from Jesus mouth who felt that they were.

Jonathan Mathews · May 4, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Who would these prisoners be?
Most believe them to be those awaiting the resurrection in Abraham's Bossom in Luke 16:19-31

No. Those held in prison (Hell) are those evil men of Noah's day to whom the Spirit of Christ went thru the preaching of Noah, but who also rejected Christ (speaking thru Noah's preaching) and since dying, have remained in prison, being held for final judgement where they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Chris V++ · May 4, 2019

Jonathan Mathews said:
Those held in prison (Hell) are those evil men of Noah's day to whom the Spirit of Christ went thru the preaching of Noah, but who also rejected Christ (speaking thru Noah's preaching) and since dying, have remained in prison, being held for final judgement where they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

So do you think it's possible they were/are given an opportunity to repent before the final judgement? Why else did Jesus preach to those souls and have it recorded in scripture?

Joy · May 4, 2019

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100% going to heaven vs sometimes doubtful of it. Who is the correct person?

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