Christians should be more unified against abortion.

lismore said:

Hello ChristianForCats. I disagree. The Lord Jesus said 'By their fruits you shall know them. Unrepentant murderers are Christians? No way! Yes, all Christians sin, but for a true believer to sin it breaks their heart. The Holy Spirit convicts them of sin and righteousness and towards full repentance. We're on the Highway of Holiness! God Bless

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This is a totally different topic worthy of its own thread, but you obviously are just reading my words here from a pre-existing perspective. From this POV nobody who favors abortion is a Christian, including forum members who identify themselves as Christians, and doing this is prohibited on CF in all sections.

So for the purpose of obeying CF rules, please drop the idea that abortion supporters are not Christians.

Scripture doesn't discriminate against a human being based upon their level of development. This is the thrust of the argument in the OP.

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No. Scripture doesn't speak to the matter at all. And if you want Christians to be so "unified" about it, maybe you should take that up with God, with why did He not give Scripture which clearly speaks to the matter. That would have given you your "unity".

We know scientifically that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization.

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We know that the non-self-sustaining set of tissue has its own chromosomes, own set of DNA, and will grow into a human being. That's it. Ironic how science has eschewed the metaphysical all this time, yet suddenly you see science as the "proof" that an embryo already has a metaphysical soul with its own separate consciousness. How much do you remember from when you were age 2? Let alone in the womb?

usexpat97 said:

We know that the non-self-sustaining set of tissue has its own chromosomes, own set of DNA, and will grow into a human being. That's it.

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And continues to grow until old age hopefully, where quite often it no longer is able to retain conscious thought and cope by itself. Is there a stage in old age where aborting the adult human is in the best interests of a child?

SPF said:

I'm asking if you disagree with the conclusions of the OP. I'm asking you to make a contribution based upon the purpose of the thread. It's a discussion over the morality of abortion. Do you believe that the 98.5% of abortions which are committed for non-medical reasons are moral or immoral? What standard would you use to help guide you in your belief?

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I believe 100% of abortions that other people get are 0% my business. I believe 100% that if you have a belief that abortion isn’t a good fit for your situation, that you absolutely shouldn’t get one. I believe 100% that if you are in a situation yourself needing one and you do not believe it to be immoral or against your faith, or it is but an extenuating circumstance that makes you feel you need it, that is entirely your business. I believe that medical care is between the patient and the doctor, not insurance, not the government, not random people who aren’t involved. Patient and doctor. That’s it.

So I don’t care why one says abortion is immoral for them. I don’t care why somebody says it is moral for them. In both circumstances, each person deserves to make their own decision.

This is of course wrong. A human beings developmental period lasts about 25 years, beginning with fertilization. Yet at no point during our development are we not a human being. A health human being always "looks like" a human being at their appropriate level of development.

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Scripture please.

Is there a stage in old age where aborting the adult human is in the best interests of a child?

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Sure. In a vegetative state, people have allowed the families to make the decision whether to pull the plug.

SPF said:

Scripture doesn't discriminate against a human being based upon their level of development. This is the thrust of the argument in the OP. We know scientifically that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization. We know Biblically that all human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

We know that human development takes roughly 25 years. Yet at no point during our development are we not a human being created in the image of God.

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I made no mention of the developmental level of a person.....one that one experienced breathing and the other had never done so. A child born at 5 or 6 months is the same as one born at 9 or ten.....yet different from the unborn only because of the breathe.

And biblically, I do not feel that flesh is the image of God.... the spirit is......and it cannot be destroyed by man......

SPF said:

I am perfectly OK with disagreeing with people theologically, just as you are. People are of course free to believe whatever they want, but I have no problem defending a specific position that I believe to be true. Especially if the consequences of a false belief result in the acceptance of the murder of innocent people.

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I aim not to disagree, but to respect the opinions, beliefs and choices of others even if they differ from my own. It is not in me to condemn those who have beliefs and values contrary to mine.

We all speak what we believe is right based on what we interpret from life and literature.. We should feel free to share these.......but i think it unwise to ask people to bane together to condemn others with doctrines and beliefs that arent like ours.

Tropical Wilds said:

I believe 100% of abortions that other people get are 0% my business. I believe 100% that if you have a belief that abortion isn’t a good fit for your situation, that you absolutely shouldn’t get one.

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How do you feel about drive-by shootings (assuming that you are not the target, that is)??

Okay for people who want to engage in them, but not any of your business?

usexpat97 said:

Sure. In a vegetative state, people have allowed the families to make the decision whether to pull the plug.

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I'm not talking about pulling plugs. I'm talking when a parent at the elderly end of the spectrum becomes an inconvenience to a child.

Albion said:

How do you feel about drive-by shootings (assuming that you are not the target, that is)??

Okay for people who want to engage in them, but not any of your business?

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Are you saying that, if you could, you would take away one physical and mental capacity to commit these crimes? And if so, how do you compare to the God who saw fit to leave the options there?

Albion said:

How do you feel about drive-by shootings (assuming that you are not the target, that is)??

Okay for people who want to engage in them, but not any of your business?

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Ignoring that drive-by shootings are illegal, attempted murder is illegal, actual murder is illegal, the activities that lead to drive-by shootings are often illegal, you are making a comparison that simply doesn’t match. On par with saying that because I raked up the acorns in my yard I’m obviously ok with clear-cutting the forest the acorn came from.

timothyu said:

I'm not talking about pulling plugs. I'm talking when a parent becomes an inconvenience to a child.

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Children kill parents all the time.....yet I see no one working on pills to remove the capacity to do so.

One saying that they are for choice.......Is not saying that they agree with choices that are made......They just do not agree with creating the pill to remove options they may or may not agree with.

RaymondG said:

Are you saying that, if you could, you would take away one physical and mental capacity to commit these crimes? And if so, how do you compare to the God who saw fit to leave the options there?

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No, I'm asking if it is correct to think that everything and anything that happens to another person--or is done by another person--is actually none of my business. And if that is so, how come we have all these discussions about the rightness or wrongness of war, poverty, sexual assault, or whatever?? Everybody should just say none of that is my business and let it go ahead. If we are to be consistent, that is.

timothyu said:

It is hard to legislate the bedrooms or backseats of the world.

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I'm not talking about legislation. That's what we're trying to do now--attempting to use carnal weapons of war.

I'm talking about not using legislation. I'm talking about looking at reasons why Christian women get abortion and then working out within the Body of Christ how to mitigate against those reasons.

To a huge degree, it means changing the mindset of Christians across the board away from the typical American desire for material acquisition, which underlies many Christian women's reason for abortion.

It means assuring a Christian woman that we won't leave her destitute if she has a child.

It means encouraging younger marriages--along with assurances of financial support while young couples work toward economic self-sufficiency.

It means creating a social atmosphere that mitigates against American society's sexualization of young children.

It means increasing the concept of a social structure in which young people are encouraged to use their Church connections to help them find more suitable mates.

It means creating a social structure that teaches children how to be suitable mates.

Tropical Wilds said:

Ignoring that drive-by shootings are illegal, attempted murder is illegal, actual murder is illegal, the activities that lead to drive-by shootings are often illegal....

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Ah, so that is the determiner? If it is legal.

But all sorts of things in our society are legal and yet all manner of people are outraged at the fact and consider them to be outrageous, immoral, unfair, or something like that. That doesn't mean that you would care about them yourself, of course.

Tropical Wilds said:

On par with saying that because I raked up the acorns in my yard I’m obviously ok with clear-cutting the forest the acorn came from.

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I am not saying that.

However, there are plenty of occasions for clear-cutting forests legally and I am apparently being told that this act would not be any of your business. IF that is your view, then that's fair, but I wonder….

RDKirk said:

I'm talking about looking at reasons why Christian women get abortion and then working out within the Body of Christ how to mitigate against those reasons.

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I agree with your complete post. As for how to mitigate against those reasons, God has been trying to get that across since the beginning, and the church oddly has failed to do so especially in the loving all as self department.

Who would want to be aborted themselves. What would any of us do if in the position of a woman who finds herself where she wasn't hoping to be. Although, lets face it for thousands of years, the you play you pay philosophy put many of us here, so this is a new shift in dynamics in the last 50 years.

timothyu said:

Who would want to be aborted themselves.

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Are you 100% certain that a few bodies that I was destined for weren't discarded before I settled in the one Im in now? Or is man totally able to stifle God's plans? Is it man who says Live or Die......or God?