Christians should be more unified against abortion.

RaymondG · May 3, 2019

lismore said:
I'm saying that your argument about freewill is very weak because a human life is being ended in the most cowardly and despicable fashion. Killing a baby in the womb is monstrous. Where is the freewill for that human being as it is murdered? It's very life is being removed.

Make no mistake, Abortion is murder and everyone who has allowed it, supported it, partaken in it will answer to the Holy Lord and God on the Great day of judgement for MURDER. Pro-choice=conspiracy to murder, not allowing freewill.

I have no argument.....if I did, I could no longer pretend im for free will. You have every right to feel what you do, and I choose not to judge you for it....positively or negatively. Now when you being to feel this about those whose beliefs differ from yours, love will abound and changes can be made.....

GodLovesCats · May 3, 2019

lismore said:
Hello ChristianForCats. I would say that in voting for abortion they have shown they are not Christian. As the Lord Jesus said: 'These people honour me with their lips but their hearts are far from me, they worship me in vain'. God Bless

Only God knows their hearts. We cannot judge anybody as being Christian or non-Christian because of his or her actions regarding Bible scripture. Remember all Christians sin. If voting in favor of abortion is a sin (and I think only abortion itself, not one's opinion of it, is a sin) it is just that - one of their sins. Does one become non-Christian after lying about abortion? Absolultely not!

usexpat97 · May 3, 2019

Pro-choice=conspiracy to murder, not allowing freewill.

Okay, if you're going to take that attitude.

"Pro-life" = the belief that our kids belong to the government, not to the parents. Not allowing free will for the people, instead ceding it to the government to will for us. No trust in God. The government is their god.

GodLovesCats · May 3, 2019

fhansen said:
Yes, there's no point during gestation where one could logically say, "Now we have a human where before we did not; now this being deserves the full rights and protection of the law where a second ago it did not. Abortion is simply to take the life of an innocent human being (euphemistically called "products of conception" to salve consciences) by ripping it out of its place of origin with a very crude and unnatural procedure.

FYI women do not even know they are pregnant the first four weeks. So they can say an embryo does not have rights simply because they did not know it existed before realizing she had missed her period and an ultlrasound test was done. How can a human nobody knew existed have the same rights as its mom?

I am not saying embryos should not have rights, only that people cannot give one rights if they do not know about him or her.

lismore · May 3, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
Only God knows their hearts. We cannot judge anybody as being Christian or non-Christian because of his or her actions regarding Bible scripture. Remember all Christians sin. If voting in favor of abortion is a sin (and I think only abortion itself, not one's opinion of it, is a sin) it is just that - one of their sins. Does one become non-Christian after lying about abortion? Absolultely not!

Hello ChristianForCats. I disagree. The Lord Jesus said 'By their fruits you shall know them'. Unrepentant murderers are Christians? No way! Yes, all Christians sin, but for a true believer to sin it breaks their heart. The Holy Spirit convicts them of sin and righteousness and towards full repentance. We're on the Highway of Holiness! God Bless

SPF · May 3, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
women and women alone have the fundamental right to decide for themselves if they are going to endure nine months of pregnancy and bear a child.

The morality of abortion stands or falls with how we understand the nature of the life inside the womb. Abortion, believe it or not, is not a women's rights issue.

Your position is not consistent. To demonstrate this, all I have to do is ask you if you think it should be legal for me to come over and kill you because I think you're an idiot, and the world would be better off without you misleading people with your discriminatory beliefs. Why don't I have the right to decide for myself whether or not to kill you?

usexpat97 said:
"Pro-life" = the belief that our kids belong to the government, not to the parents. Not allowing free will for the people, instead ceding it to the government to will for us. No trust in God. The government is their god.

This of course, as you are intelligent enough to know, is absurd. People who are pro-life recognize that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization. Those of us who are Christians are able to put that fact together with the knowledge that all human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

Therefore, it is abundantly clear that the 98.5% of abortions which are committed for non-medical reasons are indeed, immoral.

This topic is about the morality of abortion. Let's try to stay on topic.

timothyu · May 3, 2019

RaymondG said:
Fertilized eggs are an expensive delicacy in some places...

Soylent green

timothyu · May 3, 2019

RDKirk said:
We fail to do what we can--or to do anything--to undercut the reasons women get abortion.

It is hard to legislate the bedrooms or backseats of the world.

MournfulWatcher · May 3, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
This seems to be an almost misogynistic view of women, seeing them as nothing but broodmares and incubators whose duty is to carry a fetus inside her for nine months, regardless of whether she wants to keep it or not.

I've said it before, I will say it again: no amount of this spiel changes the fact that women and women alone have the fundamental right to decide for themselves if they are going to endure nine months of pregnancy and bear a child. While abortion is sinful, it damn sure is not the government's job to ban it through all nine months of pregnancy, even in cases of rape and pregnancy, as some radical right-wing ideologues in the Republican Party, Catholic Church and Southern Baptist denominations want to.

Suppose a woman gets angry at her cheating boyfriend, and decides to ram him with her car, which results in him having irreversible damage done to a vital organ. If he doesn't get an organ transplant, there is a 95% chance that he will succumb to his wounds. Ironically, the girlfriend is a perfect match for him, and he would definitely survive if she donated her organ.

What can the state do? The state can charge her with aggravated assault. What the state cannot do, however, is force her to give up her organ to her injured boyfriend, even though his death will be the result.

Why can't the state force her? Because she has bodily autonomy.

Now, suppose a woman had a one-night stand with an attractive gentleman she met at a bar. A couple of weeks go by, and she realizes she is pregnant. If she decides to terminate her pregnancy, the fetus inside her will also be terminated, and not become a baby in nine months. The state cannot force her to be a human incubator and mere vessel for the fetus, as she has a life of her own.

Why can't the state force her? Because she has bodily autonomy.

And rightly so.

I hope that all women would keep their unborn fetuses, and not abort them, and have no doubt that abortion is a sin. But all women are not going to keep their babies, But it is ultimately her choice, not mine.

There is a difference between allowing someone to die along the natural course of their condition because you do not wish to give up an internal organ, and the horror of forcefully killing a human being which has nothing wrong with it, and will not die if allowed to live, ESPECIALLY if that human's existence is a direct result of your actions which you knew may bring a human being into life (the one night stand example you gave.)

RaymondG · May 3, 2019

SPF said:
Your position is not consistent. To demonstrate this, all I have to do is ask you if you think it should be legal for me to come over and kill you because I think you're an idiot, and the world would be better off without you misleading people with your discriminatory beliefs. Why don't I have the right to decide for myself whether or not to kill you?

Here, you are equating the life of one who breathes, lives, moves and have their being... with one who has not yet taken a breathe.

There are some who place importance on in the breathe of life......those who believe that adam wasnt yet adam until God breathed the breathe of life into him.

Are you ok with ones decision to believe this.....or would you like to take away the opportunity for others to make this choice as well......so to match your own convictions?

Tropical Wilds · May 3, 2019

SPF said:
Thus, I would argue that at the very least all 98.5% of abortions which are committed for non-medical reasons are immoral and wrong.

And 98.5% of statistics cited in informal debates are completely made up.

But honestly, if that’s how you feel then I hope you will make choices that honor that inclination.

timothyu · May 3, 2019

SPF said:
the only reason abortion is legal is because the law does not recognize the unborn as a human being possessing the same moral worth and value as someone who is born.

Yet they recognized the potential of that unborn person. Don't forget that legalization was influenced in a round about way by advancements of the civil rights movement. Once a people can become a legitimate power, numbers matter. A reduction of those numbers might prevent a turn in politics later. As we have seen that backwards thinking motive failed 50 odd years later with the election of Obama. It's time for a re-evaluation now that old motives have failed, but the likelihood is slim as long as the 'promise' to change the law is beneficial to capturing the vote of certain individuals. Once done, their allegiance is no longer a guarantee.

RaymondG · May 3, 2019

timothyu said:
It is hard to legislate the bedrooms or backseats of the world.

yet it is easy to condemn the production of the life that results from these backseat excursion.

People do not realize that the shame and humiliation young people feel, after delivering a child out of wedlock, is feared much more than the shame of abortion..... Most extremely religion families would prefer abortion over the public shame of bringing the new child to the church.... Most young girls leave the church if they cant succumb to the pressure, given indirectly by the church, to abort.....

Yet they are able to stay and participate as normal after abortions......

timothyu · May 3, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
But it is ultimately her choice, not mine.

Yes but that choice used to be made on responsibility. Now it is made as a matter of rights. Vast difference.

timothyu · May 3, 2019

RaymondG said:
Yet they are able to stay and participate as normal after abortions......

It's a catch 22 situation.
Quick story.. a lot of the mental illness in Boomers came from a now proven fact that an infant must be cuddled often in the first few weeks/months of life in order to thrive and achieve a healthy disposition to others as they grow. Three months at most and the deed was done, an unhealthy outlook towards touch. Many religious hospitals of the 40's-50's were notorious for shunning the infants born out of wedlock and left behind for adoption. Bare essentials but no affection as they were seen as being just as guilty as the mothers of sin. The spawn of illicit sex.

Sick thinking but it had an outrageous effect on many lives, yet ironically wouldn't have become knowledge within the psychiatric community without the failing of Christian hospitals and nurses towards these future patients. It also shows how abortion could possinly been legalised in the minds of Christian lawmakers, if the born, let alone unborn were seen as offspring of sin and given second class status. Actions are a product of the times.

fhansen · May 3, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
FYI women do not even know they are pregnant the first four weeks. So they can say an embryo does not have rights simply because they did not know it existed before realizing she had missed her period and an ultlrasound test was done. How can a human nobody knew existed have the same rights as its mom?

I am not saying embryos should not have rights, only that people cannot give one rights if they do not know about him or her.

But we do give them rights. It's illegal in most cases to abort after the first trimester. And by your logic it should be permissible to abort any time before natural birth, as if not knowing the person should make them eligible for annihilation.

SPF · May 3, 2019

RaymondG said:
Here, you are equating the life of one who breathes, lives, moves and have their being... with one who has not yet taken a breathe.

Scripture doesn't discriminate against a human being based upon their level of development. This is the thrust of the argument in the OP. We know scientifically that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization. We know Biblically that all human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

We know that human development takes roughly 25 years. Yet at no point during our development are we not a human being created in the image of God.

RaymondG said:
There are some who place importance on in the breathe of life......those who believe that adam wasnt yet adam until God breathed the breathe of life into him.

Are you ok with ones decision to believe this.....or would you like to take away the opportunity for others to make this choice as well......so to match your own convictions?

I am perfectly OK with disagreeing with people theologically, just as you are. People are of course free to believe whatever they want, but I have no problem defending a specific position that I believe to be true. Especially if the consequences of a false belief result in the acceptance of the murder of innocent people.

Tropical Wilds said:
And 98.5% of statistics cited in informal debates are completely made up.

Thank you for that useless post. Thankfully in this discussion the statistics are not made up.

Florida is one state for example that actually records a reason for every abortion. in 2015 there were 71,740 abortions. Do you know how many babies were aborted due to medical reasons?

.065% abortions due to the woman's actual life being in danger.
.288% abortions due to non-life threatening, but still physical health issues for the mother.
.666% abortions due to serious fetal abnormality.

Do the math on that and you'll see my 98.5% was actually generous.

Here's a disturbing statistic for you - in 2015, 35% of all pregnancies in NY City ended in abortion. That's according to the CDC.

Tropical Wilds said:
But honestly, if that’s how you feel then I hope you will make choices that honor that inclination.

Do you disagree Tropical Wilds? Can you refer back to the OP and let me know what I got wrong?

timothyu · May 3, 2019

usexpat97 said:
"Pro-life" = the belief that our kids belong to the government, not to the parents. Not allowing free will for the people, instead ceding it to the government to will for us. No trust in God. The government is their god.

Ah, the good old days of the draft

timothyu · May 3, 2019

fhansen said:
And by your logic it should be permissible to abort any time before natural birth, as if not knowing the person should make them eligible for annihilation.

That is what is happening now, human chop shops for parts among other things

Tropical Wilds · May 3, 2019

SPF said:
Thank you for that useless post.

You are welcome.

Thankfully in this discussion the statistics are not made up.

The statistic in that quote was most certainly made up.

Florida is one state for example that actually records a reason for every abortion. in 2015 there were 71,740 abortions. Do you know how many babies were aborted due to medical reasons?

.065% abortions due to the woman's actual life being in danger.
.288% abortions due to non-life threatening, but still physical health issues for the mother.
.666% abortions due to serious fetal abnormality.

Do the math on that and you'll see my 98.5% was actually generous.

And completely made up. Unless you decide the whole of moral and ethical standards, you personally execute them, and you’ve interviewed each and every person who got an abortion, there is no way you can know what was moral and what wasn’t.

Here's a disturbing statistic for you - in 2015, 35% of all pregnancies in NY City ended in abortion. That's according to the CDC.

Almost 80% of the abortions cited occurred before the eighth week of pregnancy, earlier than any other part of the country. Less than 4% occur after week 20, less than half a percent occur after week 24. And nowhere in there did they cite reasons behind the abortions, so for all you know the .3% of abortions between week 20 and 24 were catastrophic emergencies.

I find the more disturbing statistic to be that NYC has the worst access to reduced cost medical care and the lowest access to birth control per capita than any first world nation in the world. They also have the worst health, food, and educational access in the nation for a large city, which was the point of the CDC study I might add.

Do you disagree Tropical Wilds? Can you refer back to the OP and let me know what I got wrong?

Do a I disagree what? If that is how you feel, then I hope you make choices to support that belief. I didn’t say you were right or wrong (besides the statistic) only that I celebrate your ability to do what you feel is best for yourself based on your belief and circumstances.

You could think abortion was wrong because you saw a sign on the moon that told you as much, I’d say “cool” and defend most passionately your right to not abort your pregnancy based off of your belief on what the moon told you.

Christians should be more unified against abortion.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

kewlness

Well-Known Member

Maranatha

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

In the beginning was the Word.

Well-Known Member

Little Lebowski Urban Achiever

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Oldbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Little Lebowski Urban Achiever

Similar threads