Can the Church Survive Without God's Word?

-Sasha- said:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
"it doth not yet appear what we shall be"

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1 John 3:2 is in reference to the spiritual resurrection. For when we see Christ, we will be Raptured. We will see Him as He is (in the sense of how He behaves lovingly towards us). For the next verse (1 John 3:3) talks about purifying oneself (i.e. behavior that is loving towards God and our neighbor). We will see Christ how He really is in how He loves. For when Christ appears, we will be like Him. We will have made ourselves pure at this point and be like Him (from having living out our faith in being faithful to Him).

"If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."
(1 John 2:29).

As for the bodily resurrection:

Why do you think Christ was risen?
What point would there be to have a resurrection if it was not to one day include us?

• John 5:29 GNV

"And they shall come forth, that have done good unto the resurrection of life: but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of condemnation.."

• Acts 24:15 DRA

"Having hope in God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection of the just and unjust."

• Daniel 12:2

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

• Revelation 20:4

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

• Revelation 20:5

The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.

FenderTL5 said:

Jason is trying to baffle Mary Meg with his nonsense. I think she's far too intelligent for that.

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"...the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men."
(1 Corinthians 1:25).

Tone said:

I'm not talking about our lowly physical bodies' genetics...but, even our physical bodies are made from these things...so wouldn't you think that the spiritual body of Messiah would have the same pattern?

*Isn't it the same Creator who created our bodies and the Body?

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I believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture (spiritual resurrection; Note Paul said there is a natural body, and a spiritual body - 1 Corinthians 15:44). Paul also says, flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 15:50). However, Jesus is the exception to the rule on this one (because the book of Hebrews says he entered the temple by his blood - Hebrews 9:12). Revelation 20:4-5 talks about those who were beheaded for Christ in the Tribulation will live physically and reign with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead (the other saints) will not live again physically until the 1,000 years is finished (i.e. this is the flesh and blood bodily resurrection in two phases).

Loversofjesus_2018 said:

Wait I’m starting to get really confused. Isn’t the Bible composed of written accounts of men?

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"All scripture is given by inspiration of God," (2 Timothy 3:16).

"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." (1 Thessalonians 2:13).

"...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." (John 6:63).

Michael Collum said:

Sounds like the 1900s version of the 1611 KJV story and such

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The point here is that the Bible does not teach for us to go down the rabbit hole of history (Unless it is Scripture). A person can spend a lot of time in history with no real fruit bearing instead of being in the Word of God that can change one's life. For me, it's wasted time. We don't have much time on this Earth. The Bible has deep treasures within it and one could spend ten life times studying it and still even scratch the surface to all the treasures it holds. Why waste my time with any other book? The Bible has it all!

Jason0047 said:

The point here is that the Bible does not teach for us to go down the rabbit hole of history (Unless it is Scripture). A person can spend a lot of time in history with no real fruit bearing instead of being in the Word of God that can change one's life. For me, it's wasted time. We don't have much time on this Earth. The Bible has deep treasures within it and one could spend ten life times studying it and still even scratch the surface to all the treasures it holds. Why waste my time with any other book? The Bible has it all!

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A one stop Wisdom shop?

shop (n.)
c. 1300, "booth or shed for trade or work," perhaps from Old English scoppa, a rare word of uncertain meaning, apparently related to scypen "cowshed," from Proto-Germanic *skoppan "small additional structure" (source also of Old High German scopf "building without walls, porch," German dialectal Scopf "porch, cart-shed, barn," German Schuppen "a shed"), from root *skupp-. Or the Middle English word was acquired from Old French eschoppe "booth, stall" (Modern French échoppe), which is a Germanic loan-word from the same root.

Meaning "building or room set aside for sale of merchandise" is from mid-14c. Meaning "schoolroom equipped for teaching vocational arts" is from 1914, American English. Sense of "matters pertaining to one's trade" is from 1814 (as in talk shop (v.), 1860).
shop | Origin and meaning of shop by Online Etymology Dictionary

Loversofjesus_2018 said:

Do you think that others have a point when they make this same argument about the Bible? For example they won’t believe the Bible is from God because they don’t trust the human hands that touched it?

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"...faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17).

One cannot see unless they first have faith in hearing God's Word.

When I accepted Jesus as my Savior and sought His forgiveness via the Word of God (and believed in His death and resurrection on my behalf), I was forever changed by the good taste of the Word of God. I knew it was a holy book. I knew it was the very words of God (even long before I read the actual passages that say so).

Loversofjesus_2018 said:

Do you happen to have any observable evidence for the scriptures being infallible?

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Yes.

Here is a Blogger article I created that has tons of evidences showing that God's Word is a holy book:
Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

Tone said:

A one stop Wisdom shop?

shop (n.)
c. 1300, "booth or shed for trade or work," perhaps from Old English scoppa, a rare word of uncertain meaning, apparently related to scypen "cowshed," from Proto-Germanic *skoppan "small additional structure" (source also of Old High German scopf "building without walls, porch," German dialectal Scopf "porch, cart-shed, barn," German Schuppen "a shed"), from root *skupp-. Or the Middle English word was acquired from Old French eschoppe "booth, stall" (Modern French échoppe), which is a Germanic loan-word from the same root.

Meaning "building or room set aside for sale of merchandise" is from mid-14c. Meaning "schoolroom equipped for teaching vocational arts" is from 1914, American English. Sense of "matters pertaining to one's trade" is from 1814 (as in talk shop (v.), 1860).
shop | Origin and meaning of shop by Online Etymology Dictionary

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Reminds me of 2 Timothy 2:15 that says,

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15).

Michael Collum said:

I keep hearing about this term "bib-dolatry" are people seriously turning their bibs into an idol? is their stomach really that much of a god to them?

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Biblioaltry is nothing more than false slander. Nobody I know of actually bows down to an actual book and think it has more power than God or that the book is actually the entirety of God himself. The Bible says God is spirit. But we know that the words of the Bible are the thoughts and mind of God. So we do revere or regard God's Word as being special because they are a part of God. The Scriptures are His instructions for us today.

FireDragon76 said:

Of course not, because you've been conditioned to think that only Mother Church knows what that verse means.

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No, basic common sense tells me (and everyone else who has it) that the verse does not mean what you wrote.

Tree of Life said:

Could the church survive without God's word?

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This question is predicated upon an impossible claim; it is a claim disguised as a question; namely, that it is possible that the true Church can exist in God's creation apart from God's Word.

There is no authority apart from the Word of God. God is absolute authority. God, the Living Word, and the Written Word are of the same essence and thus, equally authoritative. So how, pray tell, can anyone say that the Written Word can somehow exist outside of God's People/Church that is founded on the Living, Written Word?

The Church is not absolute authority, although it is granted certain authority. This is obvious considering the fact that the Word of God precedes--or as some describe, is logically prior to God's creation. If true authority derives from man, then from what authority proceeded God's creation?

Chesterton said:

Obviously, the Church did survive a long time before there was a bible, so obviously, yes.

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The OP addresses the Word of God. Of course we did not have the complete Cannon for the entirety of Church history; however, the Church has never existed apart from God's Word.

Shimokita said:

No, basic common sense tells me (and everyone else who has it) that the verse does not mean what you wrote.

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So why did John write the Gospel, if not for us to believe it and have life in Jesus' name?

AACJ said:

This question is predicated upon an impossible claim; it is a claim disguised as a question; namely, that the true Church can exist in God's creation apart form God's Word.

There is no authority apart form the Word of God. God is absolute authority. God, the Living Word, and the Written Word are of the same essence and thus, equally authoritative. So how, pray tell, can anyone say that the Written Word can somehow exist outside of God's People/Church that is founded on the Living, Written Word?

The Church is not absolute authority, although it is granted certain authority. This is obvious considering the fact that the Word of God precedes--or as some describe, logically prior to God's creation. If true authority derives from man, then from what authority proceeded God's creation?

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I think this argument is more clever than it is compelling.


Especially I find this sentence very difficult. A photograph of a person and the person are not the same thing. Whilst I may treasure the photograph for who it reminds me of, and all that is represented in terms of a shared story, a hope, a plan, a memory, it is not and can never be the same as the person. The photograph and the person are not of the same essence. If they were of the same essence we would worship God in four persons and one essence, and clearly we do not, as Nicene Christians we specifically worship God in three persons and one essence.

I absolutely accept that the Church is not absolute authority, and whilst I might argue for the indefectibility of the Church, that is a long way from it's infallibility. However the conflagration of the eternal Logos of God, as if it is the same thing as the Word of God - Holy Scriptures is, to my mind at least, misleading.

FireDragon76 said:

So why did John write the Gospel, if not for us to believe it and have life in Jesus' name?

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He wrote the gospel because God inspired him to do so. For us to believe it is obviously one of the reasons. But that is not what I said was unproven. What you asserted does not logically follow.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

It's God in himself that causes the Church to survive, not only through the word but also through the sacrament and adherence to the faith, all of which I would maintain was kept.

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The Command (word of Christ) for the Church to keep the Communion does not derive form the authority of man, but from God in the flesh--Christ. So the communion command does not in any way suggest or demonstrate that the Church possesses any authority or commission apart from the living or written Word of God.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

From my perspective God's word has survived, not only in the physical preservation of the text but in the adherence to that text.

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I understand that the existence and authority of God's Word is not in any way dependent upon our obedience or adherence to it. How could it be otherwise? In other words, God's Word is still alive and authoritative regardless of our obedience to it.

Philip_B said:

I think this argument is more clever than it is compelling.

God, the Living Word, and the Written Word are of the same essence and thus, equally authoritative.​

Especially I find this sentence very difficult. A photograph of a person and the person are not the same thing. Whilst I may treasure the photograph for who it reminds me of, and all that is represented in terms of a shared story, a hope, a plan, a memory, it is not and can never be the same as the person. The photograph and the person are not of the same essence. If they were of the same essence we would worship God in four persons and one essence, and clearly we do not, as Nicene Christians we specifically worship God in three persons and one essence.

I absolutely accept that the Church is not absolute authority, and whilst I might argue for the indefectibility of the Church, that is a long way from it's infallibility. However the conflagration of the eternal Logos of God, as if it is the same thing as the Word of God - Holy Scriptures is, to my mind at least, misleading.

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An important question we have raised is if the Written Word can be of the same essence as the Godhead apart form personhood.

The Written Word is eternal, alive, perfect, powerful and thus logically and necessarily of the same essence as God the Father, yet without person hood. Perhaps I misunderstand, but how can it not effectively and logically be such? It is thus equally authoritative as the Godhead, and thus for the purpose of addressing the OP, it cannot and does not exist apart from the Church founded upon it. Of course the Godhead and the Truth (Christ Jesus) transcends the limitations of written words, yet we worship the Spirit that conveys the Written Word and gives us understanding of the Written Word. We bow not down to physical letters on a page, but we bow down to the person, work, and spirit of Christ found therein.

In the beginning was the word, the word was God and was with God. The written Word does not exist outside or apart from the Godhead, this is unlike a photograph from which persons can previously exist apart.

AACJ said:

An important question we have raised is if the Written Word can be of the same essence as the Godhead apart form personhood.

The Written Word is eternal, alive, perfect, powerful and thus logically and necessarily of the same essence as God the Father, yet without person hood. Perhaps I misunderstand, but how can it not effectively and logically be such? It is thus equally authoritative as the Godhead, and thus for the purpose of addressing the OP, it cannot and does not exist apart from the Church founded upon it. Of course the Godhead and the Truth (Christ Jesus) transcends the limitations of written words, yet we worship the Spirit that conveys the Written Word and gives us understanding of the Written Word. We bow not down to physical letters on a page, but we bow down to the person, work, and spirit of Christ found therein.

In the beginning was the word, the word was God and was with God. The written Word does not exist outside or apart from the Godhead, this is unlike a photograph from which persons can previously exist apart.

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The written word exists from the time it is drawn on the parchment or chiselled in the stone. The idea it conveys may have a pre-existant form, but that does not make it eternal. The logos of John 1 is not the same as the written word.

Jason0047 said:

The point here is that the Bible does not teach for us to go down the rabbit hole of history (Unless it is Scripture). A person can spend a lot of time in history with no real fruit bearing instead of being in the Word of God that can change one's life. For me, it's wasted time. We don't have much time on this Earth. The Bible has deep treasures within it and one could spend ten life times studying it and still even scratch the surface to all the treasures it holds. Why waste my time with any other book? The Bible has it all!

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I agree there's lots of treasures to uncover in the scriptures, most of them are uncovered through application.

However, I also recall this eastern saying: Beware of man who only reads one book.