Grip Docility

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Tithe Base, University Funding, Theological Preference, Book Sales and Prophecy based sensationalism are contending with that which “Contend(s)(ed) with God” <~ Meaning of Israel.

Romans 9:1-Romans 11:36 lays a scriptural foundation to more clearly understand why the Second Coming of Christ is a much larger event than even Western Theology tends to understand.

Paul affirms this with a bread crumb found in Romans 11:25. Paul specifically reveals a Mystery that binds to Christ’s teachings.

Paul says: Until “the fullness of the Gentiles has come” in Romans 11:25, that Jesus actually shed Light on in Luke 21:24, and John 10:16

Supersession or “Replacement Theology” by slang, blinds people to the importance of National Israel to God. It also causes theological confusion that opens doors for Western Centric Theology and strips the Bible of some of it’s strongest physical evidence for being legitimately prophetic. It also opens the doors to movements like the “Millerite's” and Jehovah’s Witness “Coming of Christ” predictions that are spouted to gain followers, sensationalize the gospel and fill up church treasuries with finance.

The entire OT is about God and Israel, then the NT shows how God worked through Israel to bring the Body of Christ into being.

We know that the Body of Christ is Bone of God’s Bone, while Israel divorced itself from God, via it’s leadership of the days of Jesus walking among us.

Revelation speaks of Christ gathering the BOC and then Raising the dead to be judged to Light or Darkness.

Zechariah 14 hasn’t been fulfilled yet and for avid Jesus fans that wonder where He will “Touch Down” upon return, Acts 1 tells us exactly where, while Zechariah 14 immediately affirms the theological accuracy of this prophecy.

Thessalonians specifically has the entire BOC gathered to Jesus upon return, so Christ’s unfinished business on Earth, as He returns, with the BOC gathered, has nothing to do with “The BOC”.

What is His unfinished business? Israel and her people.

Verses that contain “Irrevocable” promises to Israel are hijacked by Western Supersession Theology to pertain to the BOC, but Prophecy, Theology are butchered horribly by this practice.

How do I know God’s Promises to National Israel are real and not contingent on Israel to the point of being “Irrevocable” per God’s GOOD character? Because Paul said so (Romans 11:29)

Praise God for all Gentiles that find shelter in the BOC and the Jews that find the BOC, too. Praise God for the people that proclaim the BOC Gospel to all people.

Rest assured, the Bible starts with Israel and ends with Israel.

The time of the Gentiles will come to fullness and be done. What comes next will be the conclusion to a Love story that covers thousands of years and has been on God’s heart. What comes next will be beyond anything that we can comprehend!

God isn’t done with Israel, yet!

The Body of Christ isn’t Israel. There will come a time when Israel joins the Body of Christ in fullness. That time hasn’t come, yet!

Any theology that says Christ has already returned, or gives a Day and Hour that He will return, or has failed at giving a Day and Hour that was said He would return; is Historically proven to be false.

Any theology that claims the BOC is Israel is clutching to ideas that are biblically proven to be false.

We, the BOC are a strange people, making Israel Jealous, but know that that Jealousy is born of Love that God cultivated, years past.

- This is my opinion
 
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Not David

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Tithe Base, University Funding, Theological Preference, Book Sales and Prophecy based sensationalism are contending with that which “Contends with God” <~ Meaning of Israel.

Romans 9:1-Romans 11:36 lay a scriptural foundation to more clearly understand why the Second Coming of Christ is a much larger event than even Western Theology tends to understand.

Paul affirms this with a bread crumb found in Romans 11:25. Paul specifically reveals a Mystery that binds to Christ’s teachings.

Paul says: Until “the fullness of the Gentiles has come” in Romans 11:25, that Jesus actually shed Light on in Luke 21:24, and John 10:16

Supersession or “Replacement Theology” by slang, blinds people to the importance of National Israel to God. It also causes theological confusion that opens doors for Western Centric Theology that strips the Bible of some it’s strongest physical evidence for being legitimately prophetic. It also opens the doors to movements like the “Millerite's” and Jehovah’s Witness “Coming of Christ” predictions that are spouted to gain followers, sensationalize the gospel and fill up church treasuries with finance.

The entire OT is about God and Israel, then the NT shows how God worked through Israel to bring the Body of Christ into being.

We know that the Body of Christ is Bone of God’s Bone, while Israel divorced itself from God, via it’s leadership of the days of Jesus walking among us.

Revelation speaks of Christ gathering the BOC and then Raising the dead to be judged to Light or Darkness.

Zechariah 14 hasn’t been fulfilled yet and for avid Jesus fans that wonder where He will “Touch Down” upon return, Acts 1 tells us exactly where, while Zechariah 14 immediately affirms the theological accuracy of this prophecy.

Thessalonians specifically has the entire BOC gathered to Jesus upon return, so Christ’s unfinished business on Earth, as He returns, with the BOC gathered, has nothing to do with “The BOC”.

What is His unfinished business? Israel and her people.

Verses that contain “Irrevocable” promises to Israel are hijacked by Western Supersession Theology to pertain to the BOC, but Prophecy, Theology are butchered horribly by this practice.

How do I know God’s Promises to National Israel are real and not contingent on Israel to the point of being “Irrevocable” per God’s GOOD character? Because Paul said so (Romans 11:29)

Praise God for all Gentiles that find shelter in the BOC and the Jews that find the BOC, too. Praise God for the people that proclaim the BOC Gospel to all people.

Rest assured, the Bible starts with Israel and ends with Israel.

The time of the Gentiles will come to fullness and be done. What comes next will be the conclusion to a Love story that covers thousands of years and has been on God’s heart. What comes next will be beyond anything that we can comprehend!

God isn’t done with Israel, yet!

The Body of Christ isn’t Israel. There will come a time when Israel joins the Body of Christ in fullness. That time hasn’t come, yet!

Any theology that says Christ has already returned, or gives a Day and Hour that He will return, or has failed at giving a Day and Hour that was said He would return; is Historically proven to be false.

Any theology that claims the BOC is Israel is clutching to ideas that are biblically proven to be false.

We, the BOC are a strange people, making Israel Jealous, but know that that Jealousy is born of Love that God cultivated, years past.

- This is my opinion
The Church is Israel.
 
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Grip Docility

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The Church is Israel.

4 words that muddle theology, prophecy and usurp the promises of God specifically given to National Israel.

I appreciate your input, but can you find a verse that literally says that?

Paul calls the church the Body of Christ. To blend prophecy about the Body of Christ and Israel together, causes confusion.

Aside from claiming verses towards Israel and books of the New Testament that specify the diaspora, this stance isn’t biblical.

1st question, by reading acts 1, where will Jesus return to? Hint, the disciples were a sabbaths day journey from the city of the upper room, where they witnessed Jesus ascend. The Angel made it abundantly clear He would return, exactly as they witnessed.

2nd Question... if you care to study it out... Where does Zechariah 14 have Jesus setting His feet in a very dramatic way?

3rd Question... if you are interested... Why are all of the Body of Christ gathered together with Christ, in the air, if Jesus is still Prophesied to “touch down”?

4th Question... Why raise the dead to glory and damnation, if the Body of Christ is not judged, as Jesus promised in John 5:24?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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The US-Sponsored state of Israel that is currently in the Middle East did not follow the prophetic pattern as to when God actually brings Israel back, so still quite skeptical.
 
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Not David

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Has anybody noticed Israel exists again, that believes the BOC is Israel?
Israel has always existed as believers, the unfaithful Jews are not part of it, like it has always being.
 
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Grip Docility

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The US-Sponsored state of Israel that is currently in the Middle East did not follow the prophetic pattern as to when God actually brings Israel back, so still quite skeptical.

Skeptical is far better than closed. At least there’s that.
 
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Grip Docility

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Israel has always existed as believers, the unfaithful Jews are not part of it, like it has always being.

Psalms 105:37, Judges 6:9

There’s more than enough scriptures to contextually correct, scripture stone wall the idea that Israel is anything other than “Israel”.

Even the Diaspora is referenced in the NT.
 
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Psalms 105:37, Judges 6:9

There’s more than enough scriptures to contextually correct, scripture stone wall the idea that Israel is anything other than “Israel”.

Even the Diaspora is referenced in the NT.
The unbelieving Jews were cut off from God's people, so your verses don't contradict anything.
 
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Grip Docility

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The unbelieving Jews were cut off from God's people, so your verses don't contradict anything.

Romans 11 specifically notes election and the cutting off, but then, Paul notes a mystery, specifically in light of unbelieving Israel.

The promises of God are called Irrevocable in Romans 11.

God made many promises to National Israel.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Some folks don't realise that Abraham received promises concerning the land way before Moses and before he was a Jew.

For this reason when I went to Israel I felt at home there.

Yes there is a spiritual Israel, promised to Father Abraham, consisting of all who have faith both Jew and gentile, but that doesn't annul the promises concerning the land.
 
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Grip Docility

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Some folks don't realise that Abraham received promises concerning the land way before Moses and before he was a Jew.

For this reason when I went to Israel I felt at home there.

Yes there is a spiritual Israel, promised to Father Abraham, consisting of all who have faith both Jew and gentile, but that doesn't annul the promises concerning the land.

The Land promises, you rightly refer to.

Genesis 15:18-21, Genesis 26:3, Genesis 28:13, Exodus 23:31

I, personally, don’t subscribe to Spiritual Israel, because it is a teaching that is blown far out of proportion in Theological doctrine, but I do have a strong appreciation for what you’ve said about Israel and feeling home, there. I have never been able to visit, but it is wonderful that you have been able to travel there.

I do, however appreciate that you have shared your stance and especially that you also hold understanding of Israel’s National significance, along with its value to God.

I would even go so far to say that your understanding of “Spiritual Israel” is refreshing, as you appear to hold a view that also sustains a compassion to the blinded to the Gospel Jews that reside there and Globally. However you see it, it is refreshing to hear a perspective on it that doesn’t throw God’s promises to the National Children of Israel, out the door.

- Respect in Jesus Christ to you
 
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Some folks don't realise that Abraham received promises concerning the land way before Moses and before he was a Jew.

For this reason when I went to Israel I felt at home there.

Yes there is a spiritual Israel, promised to Father Abraham, consisting of all who have faith both Jew and gentile, but that doesn't annul the promises concerning the land.
How do you explain Galatians 3:14-29... And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and HEIRS according to the promise.
 
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Grip Docility

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How do you explain Galatians 3:14-29... And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and HEIRS according to the promise.

@Carl Emerson didn’t say otherwise. He even expressed his belief in “Spiritual Israel”. Not sure how you perceive him disagreeing with your use of those verses.

I’m the person that doesn’t believe in Spiritual Israel existing, “yet”.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I, personally, don’t subscribe to Spiritual Israel, because it is a teaching that is blown far out of proportion in Theological doctrine, but I do have a strong appreciation for what you’ve said about Israel and feeling home, there. I have never been able to visit, but it is wonderful that you have been able to travel there
I haven't been here long but notice that folks seem to polarise theologically quite quickly when the truth can embrace two or more strains of understanding at once.
Classic case - God is Father - no God is Son - no God is Spirit - three positions being argued when all are true.
When Paul talks about not all Israel being Israel, while it seems that the time of the Gentiles has not ended, we have to account for the messianic movement. So maybe our black and white approach to this isn't the truth either. There seems to be a sport here of 'scripture throwing' when the mysteries of God are still unfathomed. Maybe one dispensation merges into the other and there is an overlap at this present time.
I am definitely not called to speak about end times.
I noticed a large number of Jews are secret believers, I associated with a mission that gave refuge to believing Jews who lost their jobs at conversion - the Jewish families even held a funeral for them, I heard. (Can someone confirm this?)
I was at bible college and got a word to be in Israel for Christmas!
$2300 came in from all directions - the last $1400 one hour before the tickets had to be paid for. On a Jumbo Jet to Israel with $150 !!
Booked into Christian accomodation and found that the next day was a conference for Christian musicians from all over Israel (isn't God good!!!)
After a week I was down to the last $50 so I went to the King David Hotel and prayed all day for three days in the big leather chairs. I had to get to the point of saying to God - well if you wanted a man of faith - you got the wrong one - I might as well fly back to NZ.
Then a couple I met at a baptist church came into the Hotel - pointed at me and said 'you come with us'
They were running the mission I spoke of above.
So I stayed with them in a big Arab style stone house in Gilo.
Forgive me if I am taking up too much of your thread...
Then it happened...
I was having dinner with Ester Dorflinger who has lots of experience assisting Jews from Russia to make it back to Israel. Half way through the meal God spoke inside me very urgently - leave immediately !!! It was a shade embarrassing but she said 'dont worry I am used to that sort of guidence' so that was a relief.
In a Taxi back to Gilo in the pouring rain. I see the husband running down the road so I call out 'what's wrong??' My wife is having a heart attack Im getting a doctor....
So I went inside and the poor lady was crying out not be taken. Her auntie had died of the same symptom at the same age.
I thought do I ring the pastor to come and pray?
The still small voice said no...
So I prayed and she was completey healed in about 2 minutes. Never had a relapse.
This opened the way for me to share about issues that could be improved with their ministry - I had no credibility to say anything before this.
I had 10 weeks in Israel and then went into China twice before returning to NZ.
Everything was financed by Him.
Back home I was considered out of line to go to Israel by my church.
There was a sad sour grapes attitude toward me because i was a person of no account and still am (praise God)
The Principle of the Bible College supported me fully which was a relief.
I am 74 now and have nothing to lose sharing about my walk with Him and feel to encourage others to embrace the exciting life that awaits those who surrender to Him.
Love you all.
 
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Grip Docility

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I haven't been here long but notice that folks seem to polarise theologically quite quickly when the truth can embrace two or more strains of understanding at once.
Classic case - God is Father - no God is Son - no God is Spirit - three positions being argued when all are true.
When Paul talks about not all Israel being Israel, while it seems that the time of the Gentiles has not ended, we have to account for the messianic movement. So maybe our black and white approach to this isn't the truth either. There seems to be a sport here of 'scripture throwing' when the mysteries of God are still unfathomed. Maybe one dispensation merges into the other and there is an overlap at this present time.
I am definitely not called to speak about end times.
I noticed a large number of Jews are secret believers, I associated with a mission that gave refuge to believing Jews who lost their jobs at conversion - the Jewish families even held a funeral for them, I heard. (Can someone confirm this?)
I was at bible college and got a word to be in Israel for Christmas!
$2300 came in from all directions - the last $1400 one hour before the tickets had to be paid for. On a Jumbo Jet to Israel with $150 !!
Booked into Christian accomodation and found that the next day was a conference for Christian musicians from all over Israel (isn't God good!!!)
After a week I was down to the last $50 so I went to the King David Hotel and prayed all day for three days in the big leather chairs. I had to get to the point of saying to God - well if you wanted a man of faith - you got the wrong one - I might as well fly back to NZ.
Then a couple I met at a baptist church came into the Hotel - pointed at me and said 'you come with us'
They were running the mission I spoke of above.
So I stayed with them in a big Arab style stone house in Gilo.
Forgive me if I am taking up too much of your thread...
Then it happened...
I was having dinner with Ester Dorflinger who has lots of experience assisting Jews from Russia to make it back to Israel. Half way through the meal God spoke inside me very urgently - leave immediately !!! It was a shade embarrassing but she said 'dont worry I am used to that sort of guidence' so that was a relief.
In a Taxi back to Gilo in the pouring rain. I see the husband running down the road so I call out 'what's wrong??' My wife is having a heart attack Im getting a doctor....
So I went inside and the poor lady was crying out not be taken. Her auntie had died of the same symptom at the same age.
I thought do I ring the pastor to come and pray?
The still small voice said no...
So I prayed and she was completey healed in about 2 minutes. Never had a relapse.
This opened the way for me to share about issues that could be improved with their ministry - I had no credibility to say anything before this.
I had 10 weeks in Israel and then went into China twice before returning to NZ.
Everything was financed by Him.
Back home I was considered out of line to go to Israel by my church.
There was a sad sour grapes attitude toward me because i was a person of no account and still am (praise God)
The Principle of the Bible College supported me fully which was a relief.
I am 74 now and have nothing to lose sharing about my walk with Him and feel to encourage others to embrace the exciting life that awaits those who surrender to Him.
Love you all.

Amen!!! <3
 
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