Ark of covenant was there in temple when Jesus died?

gideon123 said:

I read your commrnts - many people here. They are interesting, but respectfully I disagree. If the Ark existed after the return of the captives from Babylon, it would surely be mentioned. It is never mentioned after the Exile.

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Was the menora mentioned? Was it mentioned that the ark was NOT there in the holy of holies!? Don't you think that WOULD be worthy of mention?

I believe that Nebuchanezzer never saw the Ark. Rhe Israelites would never allow something so sacred to be defiled and fall into the hands of the enemy. Therefore, i think that the Israelites hid the Ark, probably before Jerusalem was surrounded. And since all of the fighting men were slaughtered by the Babylonians, those who hid the Ark could never reveal where it was concealed. It was gone forever.

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They would have got it when they gathered all the stuff for the temple, not like that was something they could ignore. Nowhere does the bible say it was missing or not there. Why would people have an area where the ark was supposed to be, and go in every year as they always did if there was NOTHING at all in there? Just curtains with zero in there as the heart of their religion and in the most sacred of places...empty?? No one mentioned that??

There is no Bible passage to prove what I am saying. But there is also no Bible passage that shows that the Ark was transported to Babylon. I surely believe that if the Ark was present in Babylon, then either Jeremiah or Daniel would have spoken about it. How could you ignore the Ark???

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It actually doesn't matter if it went to Babylon or not because ALL the stuff was returned by edict and decree.

lsume said:

Yes, they attached It to a cart and the animals knew where to take It. I think that the Philistines never touched the actual ark. I think they used poles to carry it. Still they were plagued with hemeroids until they gave it back.

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Till they said 'uncle'

DamianWarS said:

repeatedly calling them suicidal militants doesn't stop these books being historical accounts that pre-date Christ.

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Historical? So where did people a few centuries before Christ have direct knowledge of a prophets who died hundreds of years earlier exactly?
They knew Jeremiah did certain things, because.....???? If you want to call it historical, we need more than divination or tea leaf reading here.

the text still reveals that at the time of the writing the whereabouts of the ark was unknown, and was that way for a long time, even if they fabricated an account of how it was taken.

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Whoooah. If you suggest they may have fabricated the account why would we believe the ark whereabouts was unknown? The militants were not prophets remember, they were killers. Suicidal soldiers.
If you want to claim they had some historical documents then you better show us the evidence.

I suspect the ark went missing around the time Solomon's temple was destroyed.

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Right, so now we have a centuries long conspiracy theory of yours that the whole priesthood engaged in some cover up and fraud with pretending something was behind the curtains in the most holy place! You suggest there never really was anything in there despite the rituals and ceremonies etc.

The Ark itself implicitly carries the manifested presence of God

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Which is WHY the holy of holies was...well..holy!

and there is something to be said about a temple without an Ark and if it can be said to even carry this presence. I would say Jesus was the Ark himself during his own time.

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?? So the priests pretended there was the presence of God where the ark was hiding behind the veil, but when Jesus came He was suddenly 'the ark'? Ha.

Looking at Jer 3 and using that to say the Ark must have been around because the prophecy was unfilled seems like your forcing how you think things should happen.

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I am saying a prophesy dealing specifically with Jerusalem after Messiah returns and rules has NOTHING to do with hundreds of years before Christ.

Could the ark go missing first before this prophecy is fulfilled?

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On earth, since Jesus died, the ark is missing because it was taken to heaven! The prophesy of the rule of Christ in Jer has nothing to do with this.

if not where is the ark now and is this prophecy fulfilled?

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A prophesy is only fulfilled when it is fulfilled. Jesus is not returned to earth and ruling from Israel right now. That is still in the future.

DamianWarS said:

The mere presence of a curtain doesn't mean there is something sacred behind it but it does create a strong power of suggestion.

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Not only the presence of the 4 inch thick curtain and the location of the very holiest of holy places, but the whole thing was based on the pretense of God being there. They still tied that cord to the leg of the priest that was allowed in there once a year...in case God killed him. No one would be allowed to go in to retrieve the body.

All rituals such as the day of Atonement would have been a fraud and hoax also, because the mercy seat was involved. That was part of the ark!
"According to the Hebrew Bible the kaporet (Hebrew: הַכַּפֹּֽרֶת ha-kappōreṯ) or mercy seat was the gold lid placed on the Ark of the Covenant, with two cherubim beaten out of the ends to cover and create the space into which Yahweh was said to appear. This was connected with the rituals of the Day of Atonement."
Mercy seat - Wikipedia

etc etc etc etc etc.

I recall Toto pulled the curtain back exposing the deception of the Wizard and his power of suggestion. What happened in Herod's temple? I also recall the curtain being pulled back there as well... or more specifically torn in half. This would reveal/expose the mysteries within and if there was deception it would highly shame those in charge (shaming is a very eastern way of making a point).

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It would do that but since the tearing of that veil happened at the exact moment Jesus died, the message was about Jesus. He made a way to get to God, the separation was no longer needed or there. The deception came after this, when the leaders covered up what happened and pretended it was all the same. They pretended the veil was never ripped, and that presence of God was still in there after sewing it up! (according to Christian legend they sewed it back up)

This would be the high priest (Caiaphas) a key player that led to Christ death. I would say an exposed empty holy of holies would make Caiaphas pretty vulnerable and shamed.

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The sad thing is that those leaders may have known Jesus was the messiah but killed Him anyhow to retain power for themselves. Rather than some repentance after the veil was ripped, we had a cover up. Just as they paid people to lie about the resurrection to try to cover that up.

BrotherD said:

A fellow named Ron Wyatt has claimed to found the ark and also Sodom and Gomorrah, the Red Sea crossing, Mt. Sinai, Noahs Ark, amongest other things. Keep a open mind when viewing his research, people bash him because he wasn't a "professional" but,
1 Corinthians 1:27 states "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

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I doubt him because the bible says the ark is in heaven. I also doubt him when the authorities say he was making stuff up.

Lazarus Short said:

The answer is here, from the Book of the Maccabees:

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Maccabees 2 - New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

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No it isn't.

BrotherD said:

They way he explained it is when they pierced his side, his blood went through the crack on the mercy seat, ratifying the old covenant and establishing the new.

Matthew 27:51
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

No matter what somebody else said/says. The man has never changed his story and wasbalways extremely humble and giving God the glory in his interviews.

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Yes there was a quake. Yes the veil was torn. Probably at that moment the ark was taken from there to heaven. Wyatt's claims were not supported apparently

" Wyatt was not considered credible by professional archaeologists and biblical scholars. The Garden Tomb Association of Jerusalem state in a letter they issue to visitors on request:

The Council of the Garden Tomb Association (London) totally refute the claim of Wyatt to have discovered the original Ark of the Covenant or any other biblical artifacts within the boundaries of the area known as the Garden Tomb Jerusalem. Though Wyatt was allowed to dig within this privately owned garden on a number of occasions (the last occasion being the summer of 1991) staff members of the Association observed his progress and entered his excavated shaft. As far as we are aware nothing was ever discovered to support his claims nor have we seen any evidence of biblical artifacts or temple treasures.[17]"

wiki

Lazarus Short said:

Your denial proves nothing, or do you simply regard the Book as unreliable?

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Yes, when it comes to being compared with the bible. They recorded 'history' about Jeremiah, I wonder how they got that and how we can check the sources?

Lazarus Short said:

I see where you are coming from, and yes, we would need to find the Ark on that mountain to prove the book correct, but there is nothing else from ancient times (that I know of) to go on.

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Then why not assume Rev is correct and that is is in heaven now? Why would I assume that that significant act by the hand of God (when Jesus died) of exposing the inner holy of holies (by ripping the thick curtain apart so all could look in) was not also meant to show that the ark was now also gone?