John 20:21-23 What is the meaning here and original words used?

Petros2015 · May 1, 2019

Specifically looking for the words from the original manuscript/sources here:

NIV (Greek->English Based)

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

KJV (Greek-> English Based)

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) (Greek->Latin->English Based)

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

So what are the actual greek words and their meaning here?

And what is Christ's meaning?

Is he giving disciples authority to withhold forgiveness and damn someone if they choose?

Christ's example was nearly (if not completely) 100% forgiveness - "Father forgive them they know not what they do" even as he is being nailed to a cross. "How many times should I forgive my brother? 7? No... 70 times 7"

So, I don't see this as authority given to withhold forgiveness.

I think it is a warning NOT to withhold forgiveness, for the sake of someone else (and maybe for themselves).

Possibly, depending on what the words are underneath the english... when he says "if you retain the sins of others, they are retained" what he means is "if you don't forgive others, you won't be forgiven" i.e. YOU retain THEIR sins (for yourself). Which would be... undesirable(!), but lines up very well with being shown the mercy you show...

Possibly the meaning was "don't be corrupted". This goes with "be holy as your Father is holy". i.e. don't retain (get caught up in) the sins of others yourself, thereby retaining them yourself

Possibly the meaning and intent was to be sacrificial in nature - as Christ bore our sins, they too could bear the sins of others. He said, just in the previous verse, as my Father sent me, now I am sending You.

Anyway, I know there are a lot of scriptural experts here who can dig into what was there under the English we see in different translations today and come back with the actual words from the original manuscripts and their actual meaning in the original language, as well as the usage of those particular words in other verses.

So, go to it guys - I'm open to see what's under this.

Gods not mad · May 1, 2019

Petros2015 said:
Is he giving disciples authority to withhold forgiveness and damn someone if they choose?

Jesus is commissioning them to share the gospel and the power that it holds to set humanity free. those who rejected the gospel they could tell them their sins were not forgiven. those who accepted the gospel they could tell them their sins were forgiven. not by their own authority but by Christs authority.

HTacianas · May 1, 2019

Petros2015 said:
Specifically looking for the words from the original manuscript/sources here:

NIV (Greek->English Based)

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

KJV (Greek-> Based)

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) (Greek->Latin->English Based)

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

So what are the actual greek words and their meaning here?

And what is Christ's meaning?

Is he giving disciples authority to withhold forgiveness and damn someone if they choose?

Christ's example was nearly (if not completely) 100% forgiveness - "Father forgive them they know not what they do" even as he is being nailed to a cross. "How many times should I forgive my brother? 7? No... 70 times 7"

So, I don't see this as authority given to withhold forgiveness.

I think it is a warning NOT to withhold forgiveness, for the sake of someone else (and maybe for themselves).

Possibly, depending on what the words are underneath the english... when he says "if you retain the sins of others, they are retained" what he means is "if you don't forgive others, you won't be forgiven" i.e. YOU retain THEIR sins (for yourself). Which would be... undesirable(!), but lines up very well with being shown the mercy you show...

Possibly the meaning was "don't be corrupted". This goes with "be holy as your Father is holy". i.e. don't retain (get caught up in) the sins of others yourself, thereby retaining them yourself

Possibly the meaning and intent was to be sacrificial in nature - as Christ bore our sins, they too could bear the sins of others. He said, just in the previous verse, as my Father sent me, now I am sending You.

Anyway, I know there are a lot of scriptural experts here who can dig into what was there under the English we see in different translations today and come back with the actual words from the original manuscripts and their actual meaning in the original language, as well as the usage of those particular words in other verses.

So, go to it guys - I'm open to see what's under this.

It means "forgive". That it appears as "remit" in the KJV is a reflection of the anti clerical bias of the translators.

Jesus gave to his apostles the authority to forgive sins and the authority to withhold forgiveness. It was left to their discretion.

All of the original apostolic Churches still exercise that authority but each has its own tradition as to how they go about it.

Gods not mad · May 1, 2019

HTacianas said:
Jesus gave to his apostles the authority to forgive sins and the authority to withhold forgiveness. It was left to their discretion.

Christ alone has the power to forgive sins (isaiah 43:25). man can forgive one another but only God can forgive the soul of a sinner. Jesus never corrected the pharisees or scribes when they said only God can forgive sins. if that statement were not true, why did Christ not correct them? the words (have been forgiven) is perfect passive in greek (aphiemi) they are actions words meaning it carries forward. the disciples were not forgiving but announcing sins have been forgiven by God. the ones who rejected were not forgiven the ones who accepted were forgiven but the authority belongs to Christ and him alone.

dqhall · May 1, 2019

Petros2015 said:
Specifically looking for the words from the original manuscript/sources here:

NIV (Greek->English Based)

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

KJV (Greek-> English Based)

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) (Greek->Latin->English Based)

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

So what are the actual greek words and their meaning here?

And what is Christ's meaning?

Is he giving disciples authority to withhold forgiveness and damn someone if they choose?

Christ's example was nearly (if not completely) 100% forgiveness - "Father forgive them they know not what they do" even as he is being nailed to a cross. "How many times should I forgive my brother? 7? No... 70 times 7"

So, I don't see this as authority given to withhold forgiveness.

I think it is a warning NOT to withhold forgiveness, for the sake of someone else (and maybe for themselves).

Possibly, depending on what the words are underneath the english... when he says "if you retain the sins of others, they are retained" what he means is "if you don't forgive others, you won't be forgiven" i.e. YOU retain THEIR sins (for yourself). Which would be... undesirable(!), but lines up very well with being shown the mercy you show...

Possibly the meaning was "don't be corrupted". This goes with "be holy as your Father is holy". i.e. don't retain (get caught up in) the sins of others yourself, thereby retaining them yourself

Possibly the meaning and intent was to be sacrificial in nature - as Christ bore our sins, they too could bear the sins of others. He said, just in the previous verse, as my Father sent me, now I am sending You.

Anyway, I know there are a lot of scriptural experts here who can dig into what was there under the English we see in different translations today and come back with the actual words from the original manuscripts and their actual meaning in the original language, as well as the usage of those particular words in other verses.

So, go to it guys - I'm open to see what's under this.

You should not approve of sin, lest you be in a conspiracy to sin. Jesus emphasized mercy rather than punishment when possible.

Remember from Sermon on the Mount, "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy."

Maria Billingsley · May 1, 2019

Petros2015 said:
Specifically looking for the words from the original manuscript/sources here:

NIV (Greek->English Based)

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

KJV (Greek-> English Based)

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) (Greek->Latin->English Based)

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

So what are the actual greek words and their meaning here?

And what is Christ's meaning?

Is he giving disciples authority to withhold forgiveness and damn someone if they choose?

Christ's example was nearly (if not completely) 100% forgiveness - "Father forgive them they know not what they do" even as he is being nailed to a cross. "How many times should I forgive my brother? 7? No... 70 times 7"

So, I don't see this as authority given to withhold forgiveness.

I think it is a warning NOT to withhold forgiveness, for the sake of someone else (and maybe for themselves).

Possibly, depending on what the words are underneath the english... when he says "if you retain the sins of others, they are retained" what he means is "if you don't forgive others, you won't be forgiven" i.e. YOU retain THEIR sins (for yourself). Which would be... undesirable(!), but lines up very well with being shown the mercy you show...

Possibly the meaning was "don't be corrupted". This goes with "be holy as your Father is holy". i.e. don't retain (get caught up in) the sins of others yourself, thereby retaining them yourself

Possibly the meaning and intent was to be sacrificial in nature - as Christ bore our sins, they too could bear the sins of others. He said, just in the previous verse, as my Father sent me, now I am sending You.

Anyway, I know there are a lot of scriptural experts here who can dig into what was there under the English we see in different translations today and come back with the actual words from the original manuscripts and their actual meaning in the original language, as well as the usage of those particular words in other verses.

So, go to it guys - I'm open to see what's under this.

Jesus Christ was giving His Apostle's the power to spread the Gospel through the authority of God the Father who in this case is the Holy Spirit He breathed upon them. They are the Foundation who spread the Good News of Jesus's work on the cross for the forgiveness of sin. No forgiveness is not a mandate but a warning that this authority must not be taken lightly.
Also, we have this same authority over each other. We can forgive or not forgive but in our case it is personal to us. In their case it is personal to God.
Blessings

Petros2015 · May 1, 2019

Well, this was interesting

A PROBLEMATIC MISSIONARY TEXT: JOHN 20:23 AND THE ISSUE OF THE TRANSLATION OF THE TWO MAIN CLAUSES (ἀφίενται AND κεκράτηνται

Apparently someone has written an entire academic paper on the subject.

And you have different manuscripts that were scribed slightly differently *facepalm*

And a lot more grammar than I am prepared to wrap my head around.

I think I am just going to practice forgiveness as much as I can. That seems to be the safest easiest path.

I may have to start with the scribes... lol

danielmears · Dec 2, 2019

Petros2015 said:
Specifically looking for the words from the original manuscript/sources here:

NIV (Greek->English Based)

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

KJV (Greek-> English Based)

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) (Greek->Latin->English Based)

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

So what are the actual greek words and their meaning here?

And what is Christ's meaning?

Is he giving disciples authority to withhold forgiveness and damn someone if they choose?

Christ's example was nearly (if not completely) 100% forgiveness - "Father forgive them they know not what they do" even as he is being nailed to a cross. "How many times should I forgive my brother? 7? No... 70 times 7"

So, I don't see this as authority given to withhold forgiveness.

I think it is a warning NOT to withhold forgiveness, for the sake of someone else (and maybe for themselves).

Possibly, depending on what the words are underneath the english... when he says "if you retain the sins of others, they are retained" what he means is "if you don't forgive others, you won't be forgiven" i.e. YOU retain THEIR sins (for yourself). Which would be... undesirable(!), but lines up very well with being shown the mercy you show...

Possibly the meaning was "don't be corrupted". This goes with "be holy as your Father is holy". i.e. don't retain (get caught up in) the sins of others yourself, thereby retaining them yourself

Possibly the meaning and intent was to be sacrificial in nature - as Christ bore our sins, they too could bear the sins of others. He said, just in the previous verse, as my Father sent me, now I am sending You.

Anyway, I know there are a lot of scriptural experts here who can dig into what was there under the English we see in different translations today and come back with the actual words from the original manuscripts and their actual meaning in the original language, as well as the usage of those particular words in other verses.

So, go to it guys - I'm open to see what's under this.

You must remember that, to sin, is to miss the mark. Christ, the annointed, also gave power to bind and loose, which is allow and forbid. If people were not accepting the gospel which would help them to, hit the mark, which is, being one with the Father as Christ prayed in John 17:21, literally being one with love, since God is Love; then having the faith of God, listening to God's will, from the Spirit the apostles were to leave them in their sin. But if the people realized the way was being revealed, then their sins were forgiven for they were no longer missing the mark!

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 3, 2019

Petros2015 said:
And what is Christ's meaning?

Remember how often it is written Jesus NEVER did anything of Himself ?
Always of and from and relying on THE FATHER ?

So also Jesus Instructed / Trained/ Taught by example and by word and by Spirit and by Truth all of the permanent disciples. Daily. Constantly. ALL of and from the FATHER.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 3, 2019

Petros2015 said:
Well, this was interesting

A PROBLEMATIC MISSIONARY TEXT: JOHN 20:23 AND THE ISSUE OF THE TRANSLATION OF THE TWO MAIN CLAUSES (ἀφίενται AND κεκράτηνται

Apparently someone has written an entire academic paper on the subject.

And you have different manuscripts that were scribed slightly differently *facepalm*

And a lot more grammar than I am prepared to wrap my head around.

I think I am just going to practice forgiveness as much as I can. That seems to be the safest easiest path.

I may have to start with the scribes... lol

IF YAHUWEH Sovereign Creator forgives, forgive.
IF He doesn't do something, don't do it.
To DO what HE does not DO, that is not "safe", even if it is seemingly right or "easy".

DNB · Jan 20, 2020

Although I must admit that these verses, as in when Peter is handed the 'keys', sound as though Jesus was giving these men license to pronounce salvation or condemnation upon another, at their own discretion. I cannot resolve that dynamic with the overall understanding of redemption.
Thus, I agree with @Gods not mad, that Jesus was affirming the apostles correct understanding of the Gospel, and thus, entrusted their discretion to recognize and pronounce upon a proselyte, whether his convictions were in line with salvation, or would lead to condemnation. And thus, due to their acquired understanding of these novel principles, Jesus basically gave them the authority to evangelize and express their opinions if they felt that someone was in, or out of line, with the truth. That is, they were qualified to make such critical judgments, due to their full understanding of the Gospel, and endowment of the Holy Spirit.

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John 20:21-23 What is the meaning here and original words used?

Petros2015

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Gods not mad

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HTacianas

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Gods not mad

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dqhall

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Maria Billingsley

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Petros2015

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danielmears

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yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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DNB

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