Nehemiah built a big beautiful wall!

redleghunter said:

That’s a bit accusatory. I would accept that perhaps I established an anachronism.

Click to expand...

Well, Nehemiah did build a wall and he certainly had an ethnocentric agenda with it... but what are you building? because underneath that big sheet you're pretending isn't there seems to be the shape of a straw man.

redleghunter said:

Yes the enemy from within is a greater threat. Yet Nehemiah built the wall to protect the inhabitants from harm and from contamination.

You are right, Nehemiah should have reminded the people as Ezra did of God's prohibition of outsiders worshiping at the Temple or using the Temple for profit. Therefore, any wall without a good immigration policy will fail as the enemy was escorted in.

Click to expand...

Please do not begin a sentence with "you are right" and proceed to write what I never did; I feel that's manipulative. I never stated nor do I believe that Nehemiah failed to remind the people of God's prohibition of outsiders worshipping at the temple or using the temple as profit. For one that failure would demonstrate a woefully pathetic level of ineptitude, since he was not confined by modern term limits and served as governor for a dozen years before leaving to go back to Susa, and secondly in Nehemiah 10, after the wall had been built, the obligations of the covenant are made clear to the people. In Nehemiah 13 when Nehemiah returns from Susa it is clear that despite this, the people had not maintained those obligations to be covenanted. Again, the purpose of rebuilding the physical walls and temple, and the restoration of the city were not the ultimate objective, it was to rebuild the people and restore them to God. Nehemiah ultimately failed to achieve this objective.

He can't be faulted for people, while he was not present, just letting others in through the gates.

Click to expand...

Of course he can and he must be faulted for his failure to implement sustainable plans and to install qualified people to enforce them in his absence. This demonstrates the inherent weakness of walls; their usefulness is not dependent on their magnitude but rather on who is in charge of them, and the accompanying policies and attitudes. Nehemiah was not under the delusion he was immortal when he was building the wall, or during the subsequent years when he was governor. Effective leadership entails vigilance and making provisions for the future.

So yes, you are correct that any wall without a good immigration policy will fail, as Nehemiah's did. He didn't institute policies that would effectuate lasting change and accomplish the purpose of reunification of the people with God. In another recent thread I explained to you how this is precisely why the mayor of McAllen, Texas as well as the Congressional representatives along the Mexico-US border are in opposition to Mr. Trump's wall; it will not accomplish the ultimate objective of improving border security.

redleghunter said:

Which made them beggars to their own demise. Thank God for Ezra and Nehemiah!

Click to expand...

Except Sanballat and Tobiah were not demised, both were empowered by their connection to the high priest Eliashib, and continued to be even after Nehemiah booted them all out. It's interesting to study their lives from a historical perspective, if you're ever interested. You're missing pieces of the story, but more importantly I think you're missing the point. Even if they had failed, it would given Nehemiah some sweet schadenfreude perhaps but not undone his own failings.

redleghunter said:

Nehemiah as with Ezra was about re-establishing the covenant.

I wonder what the hearts of all those women and children felt when they were dismissed and cut off from their Jewish husbands and fathers. That “great divorce” was part of re-establishing the covenant and obedience to the Law. Law over hearts I would say.

Ezra 10 NASB

Click to expand...

Despite that desire the people of Jerusalem were not covenanted by Nehemiah's efforts. I realize the chronological order of the books, whether Ezra should be before Nehemiah as it is, have been disputed, but Ezra 7:8 says that Ezra arrived in Jerusalem in the seventh year of king Artaxerxes, while Nehemiah 2:1–9 has Nehemiah arriving in Artaxerxes' twentieth year. So what I wrote above stands.

I realize that much of the Old Testament is historical accounting, but I always look to see where it points forward to Jesus and our need for him. I look for metaphors. I understand what you wrote about the utility of the wall and its purpose in relation to the temple. What springs to my mind, though, is John 2:20-22. In Jesus we see that God is at work to renovate and restore us to him. 2 Corinthians 1:20, Matthew 5:17, Luke 24:44

redleghunter said:

It is true he led the effort and he did so to protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem. He also kept out neighboring nations from influencing the project. And he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem did it in 52 days.

Was it immoral and bigoted to build this wall?

Nehemiah 6: NASB
1Now when it was reported to Sanballat, Tobiah, to Geshem the Arab and to the rest of our enemies that I had rebuilt the wall, and that no breach remained in it, although at that time I had not set up the doors in the gates, 2then Sanballat and Geshem sent a message to me, saying, “Come, let us meet together at Chephirim in the plain of Ono.” But they were planning to harm me. 3So I sent messengers to them, saying, “I am doing a great work and I cannot come down. Why should the work stop while I leave it and come down to you?” 4They sent messages to me four times in this manner, and I answered them in the same way. 5Then Sanballat sent his servant to me in the same manner a fifth time with an open letter in his hand. 6In it was written, “It is reported among the nations, and Gashmu says, that you and the Jews are planning to rebel; therefore you are rebuilding the wall. And you are to be their king, according to these reports. 7“You have also appointed prophets to proclaim in Jerusalem concerning you, ‘A king is in Judah!’ And now it will be reported to the king according to these reports. So come now, let us take counsel together.” 8Then I sent a message to him saying, “Such things as you are saying have not been done, but you are inventing them in your own mind.” 9For all of them were trying to frighten us, thinking, “They will become discouraged with the work and it will not be done.” But now, O God, strengthen my hands.

10When I entered the house of Shemaiah the son of Delaiah, son of Mehetabel, who was confined at home, he said, “Let us meet together in the house of God, within the temple, and let us close the doors of the temple, for they are coming to kill you, and they are coming to kill you at night.” 11But I said, “Should a man like me flee? And could one such as I go into the temple to save his life? I will not go in.” 12Then I perceived that surely God had not sent him, but he uttered his prophecy against me because Tobiah and Sanballat had hired him. 13He was hired for this reason, that I might become frightened and act accordingly and sin, so that they might have an evil report in order that they could reproach me. 14Remember, O my God, Tobiah and Sanballat according to these works of theirs, and also Noadiah the prophetess and the rest of the prophets who were trying to frighten me.



The Wall Is Finished

15So the wall was completed on the twenty-fifth of the month Elul, in fifty-two days. 16When all our enemies heard of it, and all the nations surrounding us saw it,they lost their confidence; for they recognized that this work had been accomplished with the help of our God. 17Also in those days many letters went from the nobles of Judah to Tobiah, and Tobiah’s letters came to them. 18For many in Judah were bound by oath to him because he was the son-in-law of Shecaniah the son of Arah, and his son Jehohanan had married the daughter of Meshullam the son of Berechiah.19Moreover, they were speaking about his good deeds in my presence and reported my words to him. Then Tobiah sent letters to frighten me.

Click to expand...

True
Christians and Jews should not be against Trump's big beautiful wall.
M-Bob

redleghunter said:

Trump is not in the OP.

The OP was to show the historical utility of Nehemiah building the wall.

Walls are objects. How they can be moral or immoral is ridiculous.

Click to expand...

The thread isn't explicitly about Trump, but it implicitly is. I feel it's disingenuous to dispute that.

Even though we have divergent views, and even though I'm a college student and it's late and I'm tired in every way, I just wrote a comprehensive post. To me, that's a form of respect, so please don't disrespect that by replying to this with a repeat of that claim.

Inanimate objects are not inherently immoral or moral, but their intent, context, and usage can be. At the Reagan Presidential Library there's a piece of the Berlin Wall. It is the same wall, so it's not the wall itself that determines the ethics of it being used.

DamianWarS said:

Well, Nehemiah did build a wall and he certainly had an ethnocentric agenda with it...

Click to expand...

Where in Scripture does it say this ?

And/or what mean you by "had an ethnocentric agenda" ? Something bad ? or good ?

Stanfordella said:

"Today is is Holocaust Remembrance Day. "What is done cannot be undone, but one can prevent it happening again."- Anne Frank (May 7, 1944)" .

Click to expand...

I once told a small child who was crying because the balloon they were playing with popped - don't worry, all balloons pop - that's how they are made - when a balloon is blown up , later, it pops. Then we get more balloons. It is normal for them to pop.

What are bombs made for ? Eventually, they are going to "pop".... (some few will be dismantled, maybe even many ....)
But mankind is worse today than ever before, and Scripture does not say good things are going to be done by mankind, no. Rather disaster and destruction is happening, and is going to happen far far far worse than ever before. (p.s. internet search "how many countries are at war TODAY? " ) On a March 17th, a world 'leader' disclosed that world war III is already underway/ happening/ in most of the world.

Until Jesus Returns.
As written.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Where in Scripture does it say this ?

And/or what mean you by "had an ethnocentric agenda" ? Something bad ? or good ?

Click to expand...

meaning Nehemiah's agenda was less about building a wall and more about preserving his people. The wall is representative of the nation of Israel and as it lay in ruin and scattered so are the people, the purpose of the wall was to reverse this. Nehemiah's heart and soul purpose are to see his people strong again and his entire focus of this wall is about this. He himself I'm sure was more xenocentric or at least able to play that part given his role as a cupbearer and influence with the Persian king but it is clear from the onset his heart is with his people not with other cultures otherwise he would have created a multicultural center in the middle of Jerusalem rather than a wall.

DamianWarS said:

meaning Nehemiah's agenda

Click to expand...

Where is Nehemiah's "agenda" written (In Scripture) ?

DamianWarS said:

it is clear from the onset his heart is with his people not with other cultures otherwise he would have created a multicultural center in the middle of Jerusalem rather than a wall.

Click to expand...

"other cultures" meaning the pagan heathen people's/ nations/ that God rejected (and said NEVER TO STUDY NOR TRY TO LEARN FROM) because they worshiped idols and sinned perversely daily without seeking God ? (God's enemies and the enemies of God's people )

redleghunter said:

It is true he led the effort and he did so to protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem. He also kept out neighboring nations from influencing the project. And he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem did it in 52 days.

Was it immoral and bigoted to build this wall?

Nehemiah 6: NASB
1Now when it was reported to Sanballat, Tobiah, to Geshem the Arab and to the rest of our enemies that I had rebuilt the wall, and that no breach remained in it, although at that time I had not set up the doors in the gates, 2then Sanballat and Geshem sent a message to me, saying, “Come, let us meet together at Chephirim in the plain of Ono.” But they were planning to harm me. 3So I sent messengers to them, saying, “I am doing a great work and I cannot come down. Why should the work stop while I leave it and come down to you?” 4They sent messages to me four times in this manner, and I answered them in the same way. 5Then Sanballat sent his servant to me in the same manner a fifth time with an open letter in his hand. 6In it was written, “It is reported among the nations, and Gashmu says, that you and the Jews are planning to rebel; therefore you are rebuilding the wall. And you are to be their king, according to these reports. 7“You have also appointed prophets to proclaim in Jerusalem concerning you, ‘A king is in Judah!’ And now it will be reported to the king according to these reports. So come now, let us take counsel together.” 8Then I sent a message to him saying, “Such things as you are saying have not been done, but you are inventing them in your own mind.” 9For all of them were trying to frighten us, thinking, “They will become discouraged with the work and it will not be done.” But now, O God, strengthen my hands.

10When I entered the house of Shemaiah the son of Delaiah, son of Mehetabel, who was confined at home, he said, “Let us meet together in the house of God, within the temple, and let us close the doors of the temple, for they are coming to kill you, and they are coming to kill you at night.” 11But I said, “Should a man like me flee? And could one such as I go into the temple to save his life? I will not go in.” 12Then I perceived that surely God had not sent him, but he uttered his prophecy against me because Tobiah and Sanballat had hired him. 13He was hired for this reason, that I might become frightened and act accordingly and sin, so that they might have an evil report in order that they could reproach me. 14Remember, O my God, Tobiah and Sanballat according to these works of theirs, and also Noadiah the prophetess and the rest of the prophets who were trying to frighten me.



The Wall Is Finished

15So the wall was completed on the twenty-fifth of the month Elul, in fifty-two days. 16When all our enemies heard of it, and all the nations surrounding us saw it,they lost their confidence; for they recognized that this work had been accomplished with the help of our God. 17Also in those days many letters went from the nobles of Judah to Tobiah, and Tobiah’s letters came to them. 18For many in Judah were bound by oath to him because he was the son-in-law of Shecaniah the son of Arah, and his son Jehohanan had married the daughter of Meshullam the son of Berechiah.19Moreover, they were speaking about his good deeds in my presence and reported my words to him. Then Tobiah sent letters to frighten me.

Click to expand...

Did it keep the Romans out?

redleghunter said:

It is true he led the effort and he did so to protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem. He also kept out neighboring nations from influencing the project. And he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem did it in 52 days.

Was it immoral and bigoted to build this wall?

Nehemiah 6: NASB
1Now when it was reported to Sanballat, Tobiah, to Geshem the Arab and to the rest of our enemies that I had rebuilt the wall, and that no breach remained in it, although at that time I had not set up the doors in the gates, 2then Sanballat and Geshem sent a message to me, saying, “Come, let us meet together at Chephirim in the plain of Ono.” But they were planning to harm me. 3So I sent messengers to them, saying, “I am doing a great work and I cannot come down. Why should the work stop while I leave it and come down to you?” 4They sent messages to me four times in this manner, and I answered them in the same way. 5Then Sanballat sent his servant to me in the same manner a fifth time with an open letter in his hand. 6In it was written, “It is reported among the nations, and Gashmu says, that you and the Jews are planning to rebel; therefore you are rebuilding the wall. And you are to be their king, according to these reports. 7“You have also appointed prophets to proclaim in Jerusalem concerning you, ‘A king is in Judah!’ And now it will be reported to the king according to these reports. So come now, let us take counsel together.” 8Then I sent a message to him saying, “Such things as you are saying have not been done, but you are inventing them in your own mind.” 9For all of them were trying to frighten us, thinking, “They will become discouraged with the work and it will not be done.” But now, O God, strengthen my hands.

10When I entered the house of Shemaiah the son of Delaiah, son of Mehetabel, who was confined at home, he said, “Let us meet together in the house of God, within the temple, and let us close the doors of the temple, for they are coming to kill you, and they are coming to kill you at night.” 11But I said, “Should a man like me flee? And could one such as I go into the temple to save his life? I will not go in.” 12Then I perceived that surely God had not sent him, but he uttered his prophecy against me because Tobiah and Sanballat had hired him. 13He was hired for this reason, that I might become frightened and act accordingly and sin, so that they might have an evil report in order that they could reproach me. 14Remember, O my God, Tobiah and Sanballat according to these works of theirs, and also Noadiah the prophetess and the rest of the prophets who were trying to frighten me.



The Wall Is Finished

15So the wall was completed on the twenty-fifth of the month Elul, in fifty-two days. 16When all our enemies heard of it, and all the nations surrounding us saw it,they lost their confidence; for they recognized that this work had been accomplished with the help of our God. 17Also in those days many letters went from the nobles of Judah to Tobiah, and Tobiah’s letters came to them. 18For many in Judah were bound by oath to him because he was the son-in-law of Shecaniah the son of Arah, and his son Jehohanan had married the daughter of Meshullam the son of Berechiah.19Moreover, they were speaking about his good deeds in my presence and reported my words to him. Then Tobiah sent letters to frighten me.

Click to expand...

Well I guess one of the problems or disagreements comes when the USA assigns itself some importance . According to the Bible , God's Kingdom is first a Kingdom ..Not a republic nor a democracy ..these are of Roman and Greek origin . Secondly , there is neither Jew , nor Greek ..I guess we could say or American ...One belongs to the Kingdom of God through Jesus Christ ..not by nationality or birth but by rebirth . His Kingdom is of every tribe and every nation . The citizens of this Kingdom demonstrates the fruits of the citizenship ...meekness , patience , kindness , and most importantly love . God giveth grace to the humble but is in opposition to the proud ....actually an ENEMY of the proud . Lastly , Nehemiah was instructed by the Lord . If we were to choose a more accurate Old Testament passage , I believe it would be from Habakkuk 2:12 . Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood and stablish a city by iniquity .
Most ( maybe all ) nations were established by much bloodshed , deceit , stealing and covetousness ( not least of all this one of course . ) There is a Kingdom however which was built by shed blood .

yeshuaslavejeff said:

"other cultures" meaning the pagan heathen people's/ nations/ that God rejected (and said NEVER TO STUDY NOR TRY TO LEARN FROM) because they worshiped idols and sinned perversely daily without seeking God ? (God's enemies and the enemies of God's people )

Click to expand...

I don't think it's any surprise that the Biblical Jewish faith at a base level has an antipathy to other systems for the very reasons you cite. This is by design which is echoed in seemingly arbitrary laws like the prohibition of mixing various things like grains, fabrics and even not letting an ox and a donkey work together. But they are not arbitrary and set deep-seated values to oppose and not mix with systems, and these are the values behind Nehemiah's wall. I'm not disagreeing with it but it doesn't change what it is.

eleos1954 said:

Revelation 21:12

It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.

;o)

Click to expand...

I love that! Let me add...
Revelation 22:15 "Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood"

The wicked don't get into New Jerusalem

redleghunter said:

This is not the political threads tulc. This is the theology thread so please keep comments to the OP. Has nothing to do with Hondurans.

Click to expand...

Walls aren't inherently bad. But it's all about context.

redleghunter said:

The missing history in your comments is Nehemiah returns and enforces the covenant.

Nehemiah 13: NASB

Tobiah Expelled and the Temple Cleansed

4Now prior to this, Eliashib the priest, who was appointed over the chambers of the house of our God, being related to Tobiah, 5had prepared a large room for him, where formerly they put the grain offerings, the frankincense, the utensils and the tithes of grain, wine and oil prescribed for the Levites, the singers and the gatekeepers, and the contributions for the priests. 6But during all this time I was not in Jerusalem, for in the thirty-second year of Artaxerxes king of Babylon I had gone to the king. After some time, however, I asked leave from the king, 7and I came to Jerusalem and learned about the evil that Eliashib had done for Tobiah, by preparing a room for him in the courts of the house of God. 8It was very displeasing to me, so I threw all of Tobiah’s household goods out of the room. 9Then I gave an order and they cleansed the rooms; and I returned there the utensils of the house of God with the grain offerings and the frankincense.



Tithes Restored

10I also discovered that the portions of the Levites had not been given them, so that the Levites and the singers who performed the service had gone away, each to his own field. 11So I reprimanded the officials and said, “Why is the house of God forsaken?” Then I gathered them together and restored them to their posts. 12All Judah then brought the tithe of the grain, wine and oil into the storehouses. 13In charge of the storehouses I appointed Shelemiah the priest, Zadok the scribe, and Pedaiah of the Levites, and in addition to them was Hanan the son of Zaccur, the son of Mattaniah; for they were considered reliable, and it was their task to distribute to their kinsmen. 14Remember me for this, O my God, and do not blot out my loyal deeds which I have performed for the house of my God and its services.



Sabbath Restored

15In those days I saw in Judah some who were treading wine presses on the sabbath, and bringing in sacks of grain and loading them on donkeys, as well as wine, grapes, figs and all kinds of loads, and they brought them into Jerusalem on the sabbath day. So I admonished them on the day they sold food. 16Also men of Tyre were living there who imported fish and all kinds of merchandise, and sold them to the sons of Judah on the sabbath, even in Jerusalem. 17Then I reprimanded the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this evil thing you are doing, by profaning the sabbath day? 18“Did not your fathers do the same, so that our God brought on us and on this city all this trouble? Yet you are adding to the wrath on Israel by profaning the sabbath.”

19It came about that just as it grew dark at the gates of Jerusalem before the sabbath, I commanded that the doors should be shut and that they should not open them until after the sabbath. Then I stationed some of my servants at the gates so that no load would enter on the sabbath day. 20Once or twice the traders and merchants of every kind of merchandise spent the night outside Jerusalem. 21Then I warned them and said to them, “Why do you spend the night in front of the wall? If you do so again, I will use force against you.” From that time on they did not come on the sabbath. 22And I commanded the Levites that they should purify themselves and come as gatekeepers to sanctify the sabbath day. For this also remember me, O my God, and have compassion on me according to the greatness of Your lovingkindness.



Mixed Marriages Forbidden

23In those days I also saw that the Jews had married women from Ashdod, Ammon and Moab. 24As for their children, half spoke in the language of Ashdod, and none of them was able to speak the language of Judah, but the language of his own people. 25So I contended with them and cursed them and struck some of them and pulled out their hair, and made them swear by God, “You shall not give your daughters to their sons, nor take of their daughters for your sons or for yourselves. 26“Did not Solomon king of Israel sin regarding these things? Yet among the many nations there was no king like him, and he was loved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel; nevertheless the foreign women caused even him to sin. 27“Do we then hear about you that you have committed all this great evil by acting unfaithfully against our God by marrying foreign women?” 28Even one of the sons of Joiada, the son of Eliashib the high priest, was a son-in-law of Sanballat the Horonite, so I drove him away from me. 29Remember them, O my God, because they have defiled the priesthood and the covenant of the priesthood and the Levites.

30Thus I purified them from everything foreign and appointed duties for the priests and the Levites, each in his task, 31and I arranged for the supply of wood at appointed times and for the first fruits. Remember me, O my God, for good.

Click to expand...

Excellent illustration as to how it was not the physical wall, but the implementation and enforcement of sustainable policies that effectuated lasting change.

Stanfordella said:

Excellent illustration as to how it was not the physical wall, but the implementation and enforcement of sustainable policies that effectuated lasting change.

Click to expand...